Flexible Dieters (80/20, IIFYM) vs. Clean Eaters
sjohnson__1
Posts: 405 Member
I know where I stand on this - I'm a clean eater if by clean eating you mean cleaning out the inside of my cereal/poptart/icecream containers once I've satisfied my micronutrient needs and have room in my macros. So it's not a personal matter but rather, a discussion topic that I (along with many others, I'm sure) would enjoy partaking in and hearing rational arguments from both POV's.
So...Here's your opportunity to explain your thought process with regards to your nutrition.
GO!
So...Here's your opportunity to explain your thought process with regards to your nutrition.
GO!
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Replies
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My thought process is to eat a diet of foods I enjoy utilizing whole natural foods as much as I find feasible. I would like to eat a diet of only 'clean' (minimally processed, natural) foods, but I find it impractical. I like to limit added sugar and low fiber grain products. I try to eat more fish and poultry than land mammal meat. My rationale is that this allows me to limit calories while being happy and sated. And it allows room for wine without putting me in a surplus too often.0
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I am guessing that this will not end well, but I look forward to the gifs!0
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It's everything I can do to hit my cals and macros on a consistent basis. Worrying about micros or where food was sourced or how it was raised/grown or the process by which it was made or how it came to be on my dinner plate... ugh, kill me now. I've got too much other stuff to worry about. Health, energy levels, etc have never been a problem for me, so at this point, I'm keeping it simple.0
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I have more energy, less bloat, less hunger, and far better blood sugar levels by eating foods with the least possible processing and additives. By processing, I do not mean cleaning and bagging lol. I mean refining things out and adding other things in. Such as I would eat a baked potato, not potato chips.0
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I have more energy, less bloat, less hunger, and far better blood sugar levels by eating foods with the least possible processing and additives. By processing, I do not mean cleaning and bagging lol. I mean refining things out and adding other things in. Such as I would eat a baked potato, not potato chips.
My deepest sympathies.
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I understand that eating clean is irrelevant for weight loss, but surely trying to eat unprocessed, fresh food can't be a bad thing? The food looks amazing and seems to be generally lower calorie, so allows for eating more. I eat a lot of pre packaged food personally - pizza, frozen ready meals and weight watchers chicken feather wraps. I also eat fresh organic food at my work because that's what's there.
I wonder if the clean eating camp gets so much stick because people are annoyed that they don't want to prioritize their nutrition in such a full on way, and the mockery of people who have a very Idealistic standard makes them feel justified in not taking that on themselves. Has anyone ever thought this aswell? What I can't abide personally is these fad cleanses. People shoving coffee up their as and drinking lemon water until they PiS like an elephant. Or these mad teas I've seen that smell like the wood chips in a kids play area. Nonsense.
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I do iifym but when i look at the things I eat I guess I'm more of a "clean" eater. Unless cheese is considered dirty.
I get a serving of oreos, ice cream, or cereal every so often but I prefer my sweet potato, oatmeal, and fruits cause I find them much more satisfying to eat.0 -
sjohnson__1 wrote: »I know where I stand on this - I'm a clean eater if by clean eating you mean cleaning out the inside of my cereal/poptart/icecream containers once I've satisfied my micronutrient needs and have room in my macros. So it's not a personal matter but rather, a discussion topic that I (along with many others, I'm sure) would enjoy partaking in and hearing rational arguments from both POV's.
So...Here's your opportunity to explain your thought process with regards to your nutrition.
GO!
What micros are you logging, and how? Ie how do you know you're meeting your micro needs?0 -
I'm more of a 50/50 IIFYM eater. Maybe more like 40/60.0
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »I know where I stand on this - I'm a clean eater if by clean eating you mean cleaning out the inside of my cereal/poptart/icecream containers once I've satisfied my micronutrient needs and have room in my macros. So it's not a personal matter but rather, a discussion topic that I (along with many others, I'm sure) would enjoy partaking in and hearing rational arguments from both POV's.
So...Here's your opportunity to explain your thought process with regards to your nutrition.
GO!
What micros are you logging, and how? Ie how do you know you're meeting your micro needs?
Do you have to log micros to know you are meeting your micro needs? I operate based on eating a good variety of foods, especially a good variety of veggies and seasonal fruits (and other fruits when I want them), nuts, various tubers, some other grains and starches, sources of protein and calcium, so on. I figure that's more than most humans have had access to throughout most of history. I've also never shown deficient in anything and and try to get some sunlight when possible.0 -
bianca_gardiner wrote: »I understand that eating clean is irrelevant for weight loss, but surely trying to eat unprocessed, fresh food can't be a bad thing?
I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I try to do it on average, although eating fresh food isn't always possible or the ideal, IMO. For example, it's early March, which means the fresh veggies and fruits where I live are extremely limited. Sure, they bring them in from wherever and I buy them because IMO they cook easier/better than frozen, but frozen veggies are probably more nutritious and canned tomatoes taste better than the non local off season tomatoes--at least enough to make my once upon a time belief that pasta sauce should always start with whole tomatoes silly (even apart from the fact that some canned tomatoes are really good).
Similarly, dried beans don't seem to me to be worse than fresh, and even canned if you can avoid the sodium can be fine and a huge time saver.
I like to get local pastured meat and eggs (and some dairy), but I also really like Fage 2% and think it's probably better than any yogurt I might make myself. I love trout which is available sort of locally (but still frozen), but also plenty of fish that isn't remotely local, and sometimes I like my salmon smoked or some sardines/kippers from a tin.
Why are these bad things, or things that should be considered less nutritiously desirable than meeting some "fresh and unprocessed only" standard.
And that's not even getting to the fact that ice cream is sometimes tasty and when I want to I can make a mean fruit pie or cobbler, and don't see why the dietary problem with that is supposed to be that it contains sugar and flour rather than simply that the calories (including from butter, locally acquired or not) can be high.The food looks amazing and seems to be generally lower calorie, so allows for eating more.
Eh. I think this is one reason I push back. I was pretty into the all natural thing before and WHILE I was gaining weight, and it's certainly possible to gain weight eating that way. Processing or not doesn't prevent it, and I kind of resent the idea that people only get fat because they eat lots of processed foods or fast food, since I didn't.
And while I think full fat dairy are great, I find some lower calorie options, like low fat or skim milk, or even (sigh) lean ground beef or skinless, boneless chicken breast make losing weight easier than sticking to the cuts of meat easiest to get from the farm I usually buy from.I wonder if the clean eating camp gets so much stick because people are annoyed that they don't want to prioritize their nutrition in such a full on way, and the mockery of people who have a very Idealistic standard makes them feel justified in not taking that on themselves.
I tend to get into these discussions for a few reasons:
(1) I used to do a version of the clean eating thing (although I didn't call it by that dumb term) and am mocking myself of old.
(2) I find it irritating that "clean" is not clear in its meaning and that many people who seem to be putting on airs about how they eat "nonprocessed" in fact eat lots of processed foods and basically the same as everyone else, but just seem unaware of it.
(3) Some versions of "clean" eating involve claims that eating processed foods (like yogurt, smoked salmon, baby cut carrots, etc.) is inherently worse for you, when in fact I think a lot of these things are good for nutrition, convenience, in a world where many of us don't have fresh local produce much of the year, etc.
(4) Some versions of "clean" eating posit that eating ANY flour or sugar, etc., is less healthy than eating some in moderation and I think that's setting up false ideas that make things harder for many--much like being scared of fat used to make dieting harder a few years ago.
(5) This is petty, but often at MFP the most pushy "clean" eaters seem to have just recently stopped eating every meal at McD's and to assume that everyone who doesn't self-identify as "clean" still does and that bugs me. I don't think cooking your food deserves special congratulations, I think it's just normal. Similarly, I think it's weird when people ask for special "clean" cookbooks when what are regular cookbooks--you'd think people had never actually seen one.
(6) I think the "clean" thing tends to segregate good conversations about cooking and eating well and stuff like that that interest me, since clean eaters seem to think that they can't ask about recipes or cooking ideas from those who haven't sworn off ice cream or whatever. Which is sort of weird, since I've never suggested that Brussels sprouts could be better cooked by adding some ice cream.
(7) Most important, probably: I dislike the "clean" approach to nutrition, as I think it's false. Eating in a way that encourages health does not require all or nothing attitudes toward food, and eating cake once a month or a few grams of dark chocolate every day or ice cream when you have the calories or the like is not inconsistent with health. AND, focusing on not eating things does nothing to promote what I consider eating healthy, which is about getting a well-balanced diet that actively includes what you need from food. IMO, if you do that you won't have room to be eating the 24/7 Twinkies that some "clean" eaters claim the rest of us do.
(8) Again petty, but also important to why I get into these arguments: I find the attitude by "clean" eaters that they are the only ones who care about health and that everyone else eats McDonald's only, so long as it fits in our calories, to be willfully ignorant of what everyone else here actually says about their goals and ways of eating and, frankly, like the term "clean" intentionally rude and insulting.
Thoughts?
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »I know where I stand on this - I'm a clean eater if by clean eating you mean cleaning out the inside of my cereal/poptart/icecream containers once I've satisfied my micronutrient needs and have room in my macros. So it's not a personal matter but rather, a discussion topic that I (along with many others, I'm sure) would enjoy partaking in and hearing rational arguments from both POV's.
So...Here's your opportunity to explain your thought process with regards to your nutrition.
GO!
What micros are you logging, and how? Ie how do you know you're meeting your micro needs?
Do you have to log micros to know you are meeting your micro needs? I operate based on eating a good variety of foods, especially a good variety of veggies and seasonal fruits (and other fruits when I want them), nuts, various tubers, some other grains and starches, sources of protein and calcium, so on. I figure that's more than most humans have had access to throughout most of history. I've also never shown deficient in anything and and try to get some sunlight when possible.
That's how I feel about my macros. I don't track them. I operate based on eating a variety of foods, including meats, dairy, vegetables etc.
I am just curious what others do, those who track mainly. They mention "meeting their micros often", but MFP doesn't really track many so I am curious.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »My thought process is to eat a diet of foods I enjoy utilizing whole natural foods as much as I find feasible. I would like to eat a diet of only 'clean' (minimally processed, natural) foods, but I find it impractical. I like to limit added sugar and low fiber grain products. I try to eat more fish and poultry than land mammal meat. My rationale is that this allows me to limit calories while being happy and sated. And it allows room for wine without putting me in a surplus too often.
^^^That! Plus, I grow a lot of my own veggies and fruit, can, dry and freeze. I like knowing where most of my food is coming from, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying a nice meal at a restaurant or even fast food, on occasion.0 -
in for twelve plus pages of fun …
here is my contribution.
there is no good, bad, clean, dirty, (insert whatever label, etc food. Food = energy that your body uses to fuel itself.
hit your calorie/micro/macro goals for the day and then feel free to fill in with whatever it is that you like. yes, that means pizza, bagels, ice cream, cookies, etc.
THIS DOES NOT MEAN GET 100% OF YOUR DIET FROM SUGAR, BAGELS, ETC
^ glad we are clear now.
clean eating is totally unnecessary for anything, well, besides self torture0 -
I have more energy, less bloat, less hunger, and far better blood sugar levels by eating foods with the least possible processing and additives. By processing, I do not mean cleaning and bagging lol. I mean refining things out and adding other things in. Such as I would eat a baked potato, not potato chips.
so adding seasoning would be processing?0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »I know where I stand on this - I'm a clean eater if by clean eating you mean cleaning out the inside of my cereal/poptart/icecream containers once I've satisfied my micronutrient needs and have room in my macros. So it's not a personal matter but rather, a discussion topic that I (along with many others, I'm sure) would enjoy partaking in and hearing rational arguments from both POV's.
So...Here's your opportunity to explain your thought process with regards to your nutrition.
GO!
What micros are you logging, and how? Ie how do you know you're meeting your micro needs?
the phone app shows your micros when you click on the pie chart0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »I know where I stand on this - I'm a clean eater if by clean eating you mean cleaning out the inside of my cereal/poptart/icecream containers once I've satisfied my micronutrient needs and have room in my macros. So it's not a personal matter but rather, a discussion topic that I (along with many others, I'm sure) would enjoy partaking in and hearing rational arguments from both POV's.
So...Here's your opportunity to explain your thought process with regards to your nutrition.
GO!
What micros are you logging, and how? Ie how do you know you're meeting your micro needs?
Do you have to log micros to know you are meeting your micro needs? I operate based on eating a good variety of foods, especially a good variety of veggies and seasonal fruits (and other fruits when I want them), nuts, various tubers, some other grains and starches, sources of protein and calcium, so on. I figure that's more than most humans have had access to throughout most of history. I've also never shown deficient in anything and and try to get some sunlight when possible.
i check mine with the phone app thingy that tells you how vitamin C you get, iron, etc...0 -
IIFYM is helpful so you can stick to your diet long term but tbh at the end of the day if you put crap foods in your body youre only taking a step back. people forget that eating *kitten* food and saying oh it fits my macros cant be good because its more than just cals in vs cals out, certain foods trigger certain hormonal changes which impact your bodys reaction in different ways like spiking your insulin and other things. i say its best to wait until you start reaching your goal then maybe the odd bit of crap food as a reward.0
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I really don't get this debate. I haven't really been on here long, but is there really any one on this site that advocates "clean eating" as it has been described above? I don't know how that is even possible unless you live on a farm and only eat what you grow, etc.
I don't think my diet has a label, which is fine by me. I eat a balanced diet and stay away from foods with lots of stuff I can't pronounce or understand.0 -
Oh, FINE! I'm in (why do I do this every time?)
I eat whatever I want. Period, as should everyone else do the same for themselves. Now that doesn't mean Twinkies and bagels and cheesecake three times a day every day (of course, no one does that, really DUH, but there's always the strawman game...), because I what I really want is my macros and micros goal met (or pretty darn close). So that means I eat my veggies and fruits, eat my proteins, drink my milk, and get my fiber.
Whatever is leftover at the end of the day, I fill with more of the above, or sometimes treats or take out, or whatever. Somedays, my "extra" is seconds of my wholesome, homemade chili. Other days, it's cheesecake. And maybe a few times a week it's fast food.
TL;DR: I fill my nutritional needs first (macros/micros), usually from whole foods and homemade recipes focused on nutrition. Any calories left to fill go towards more of that stuff, or maybe chips, a Taco Bell run, a slice of cheesecake, or booze.0 -
IIFYM is helpful so you can stick to your diet long term but tbh at the end of the day if you put crap foods in your body youre only taking a step back. people forget that eating *kitten* food and saying oh it fits my macros cant be good because its more than just cals in vs cals out, certain foods trigger certain hormonal changes which impact your bodys reaction in different ways like spiking your insulin and other things. i say its best to wait until you start reaching your goal then maybe the odd bit of crap food as a reward.
bolded part is not IIFYM …no one is advocating eating crap all day …whatever that is..
secondly, if it is not CICO then what is it? Unless you are saying that hormonal changes trump math and science….?0 -
With all due respect towards all, I am sitting here chuckling. I don't understand that " clean " fad at all. I am a German who lives in Mexico with my feet also firmly planted in the French and Spanish culture and must say that outside of MFP I have never heard the term " clean " eating, or met anyone who even mentioned it and don't understand why a term where no one knows what it even means deserves so much attention and why so many people want to follow a way of eating that does not exist anyway.
Often I think; " only in America ", but then figure that there must be more to it, just can't figure out what.0 -
Personally, I don't think that eating clean vs. not clean is going to have an impact on weight loss except if one diet or the other meshes better with the person's lifestyle who is trying to lose weight. I see it more as a health issue, but one that can affect some folks more than others. Like, those who are more vulnerable, health-wise, might have more problems 'unclean' food, while those who are very healthy may be able to eat just fine.
I'd agree that there's some looseness to the definition, though. For me, eating 'clean' is simply about trying to eat food with as few contaminants (that may be edible but I wouldn't say we'd normally consider 'food') added to it as possible. Artificially added chemicals, pesticide residues, preservatives, or ground silica would be some examples (ground silica is added as an anti-caking agent added to foods, often in things that have powdered dairy, so that it doesn't gum up in the processing machines.).
In the beginning, I started to do this because the FDA's policy about many of these substances used on our food seems to boil down to 'prove it does harm' before they will ban it. The UK tends toward 'prove it's safe' before it's allowed to be used. Knowing that, and seeing some of the things that are allowed to be used in and on our food, I started to feel like I didn't really want to be exposed to these substances. Not because they are dangerous, but because we honestly don't know if they are or not. I'd rather aim for food that I feel had a higher likelihood of being 'safe,' especially because I'm not that healthy, so any problematic additions in our food might have more impact on me.
Since I'm looking at contaminants, I don't necessarily view clean eating as only eating fresh foods, though, because plenty of fresh foods have just as many chemicals as processed ones. Apples are a great example. Most apples we get in the store are over 12 months old, and have chemicals used on them during the long cold storage to keep them looking fresh, and this is a chemical banned in the UK because they didn't think that it's safety had been proven well enough (http://rt.com/usa/154676-us-apples-chemical-ban/ )
All things being equal, I'd probably try to cut down on contaminants in my food in a general sense, with the foods that contain the most adulteration, and indulge every once in a while anyway. But I have a disorder where I react to many chemicals and such that contaminate food, and so eating 'clean' has become a necessity for me. So, I just do a lot of research into my food, and choose carefully.
I honestly don't know that my definition of 'eating clean' matches anyone else's. Personally, I think in the end, everybody just needs to eat what works for them and their health and their lifestyle, really.0 -
williams969 wrote: »Oh, FINE! I'm in (why do I do this every time?)
I eat whatever I want. Period, as should everyone else do the same for themselves. Now that doesn't mean Twinkies and bagels and cheesecake three times a day every day (of course, no one does that, really DUH, but there's always the strawman game...), because I what I really want is my macros and micros goal met (or pretty darn close). So that means I eat my veggies and fruits, eat my proteins, drink my milk, and get my fiber.
Whatever is leftover at the end of the day, I fill with more of the above, or sometimes treats or take out, or whatever. Somedays, my "extra" is seconds of my wholesome, homemade chili. Other days, it's cheesecake. And maybe a few times a week it's fast food.
TL;DR: I fill my nutritional needs first (macros/micros), usually from whole foods and homemade recipes focused on nutrition. Any calories left to fill go towards more of that stuff, or maybe chips, a Taco Bell run, a slice of cheesecake, or booze.
This. All of it. I mean, I am all up in this response right now.
I eat what I want. I'm losing weight. My mental health is in tact. My macros are (usually) met.
Yes, I ate Lucky Charms for lunch. Please, tell me more about how my insides are rotting. I'm dying to hear it. (Hint: not really)0 -
All of them?Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »I know where I stand on this - I'm a clean eater if by clean eating you mean cleaning out the inside of my cereal/poptart/icecream containers once I've satisfied my micronutrient needs and have room in my macros. So it's not a personal matter but rather, a discussion topic that I (along with many others, I'm sure) would enjoy partaking in and hearing rational arguments from both POV's.
So...Here's your opportunity to explain your thought process with regards to your nutrition.
GO!
What micros are you logging, and how? Ie how do you know you're meeting your micro needs?
the phone app shows your micros when you click on the pie chart
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
All of them?Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »I know where I stand on this - I'm a clean eater if by clean eating you mean cleaning out the inside of my cereal/poptart/icecream containers once I've satisfied my micronutrient needs and have room in my macros. So it's not a personal matter but rather, a discussion topic that I (along with many others, I'm sure) would enjoy partaking in and hearing rational arguments from both POV's.
So...Here's your opportunity to explain your thought process with regards to your nutrition.
GO!
What micros are you logging, and how? Ie how do you know you're meeting your micro needs?
the phone app shows your micros when you click on the pie chart
viatamine C,,A, iron, and calcium…so five of them ...0 -
@Sabine_Stroehm - I track what I can when it comes to micronutrients..Tracking 5 is better than none. And eating micro nutrient rich foods like fish, fruits, fibers, and veggies, etc. will cover the majority of them. That said, iifym is a tracking system that emphasizes the importance of CICO above anything else. Often times "clean eaters" have a misconception with regard to caloric needs and ideal amounts of macros. Bro dieting for example, is often a bit of rice, veggies and chicken... where's the fat? How about the carbs to protein ratio? Why cant i have a bag of chips? Where's the science? More times than not, these questions are left unanswered. And if they are mentioned, it's indirect, almost as if the dieter is supposed to know, like the science is just "common sense". From my experience with most of these meal plans, you're just given a list of what to eat, with no regard to how much... I don't buy not tracking it. I can handle the idea of eating wholesome foods, though.0
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I try to eat the yummiest foods that fit my macros/micros. For example: I have 200 calories for dessert and I haven't hit my protein goal yet. Nutella tastes great, but I'll grab a quest bar. If I really want Nutella, I'll plan ahead for it.
Bad foods = foods that taste gross to me (most salad dressings, deli meats, some raw veggies) and foods I'm allergic to (none so far).
~For weight loss: calories in < calories out.
~For body composition: get enough protein and lift heavy.
~For overall health: get enough fat, micronutrients, water, rest, maybe some cardio.
~For your sanity: don't eliminate a whole group of foods for no medical reason.
Moderation, variation, and no unnecessary elimination!
Trigger foods (food that makes you more hungry after eating it should be temporarily eliminated until portion control can be properly exercised.
I don't "punish" myself for going over my calories. I move on and try again. I'm not perfect, but I'm overall happy.0 -
That said, there is also something to be said about the sustainability of a diet that doesn't have these ridiculous restrictions. One that highlights the importance of fats, proteins and carbs. And one that doesn't lie and act like a bowl of cereal or ice cream is absolutely disgusting when you could just have brown rice and sweet potatos instead. Who brings brown rice and sweet potatos to their children's bday parties? How ridiculous is it to suggest that all you should put into ur mouth are micronutrient dense foods or else they just turn into fat or, in other words are "wasted calories"? (Someone explain a wasted calorie to me if you the have time, please lol).
I'm not saying anyone here has made those suggestions but it is the kind of bs I was fed by "clean eating bros" who obviously knew nothing and were only shredded bc they spent ungodly amounts of time (inefficiently if I can say so myself) in the gym and on the treadmill, and they ate nothing but low caloric foods keeping them in a constant deficit. No wonder they're all small and have spent 5x's as much time in the gym. Lol.0 -
I work really hard at "clean" eating. For me, that's separate from losing weight. I turned 40 this year, and I'm only 16 years younger than when my mother died. I don't want to lose weight by eating sugary snacks, cereals, treats and processed foods. What good is being thin if you're riddled with mood disorders, imbalances, and disease? I love knowing that I'm nourishing my body and giving it what it needs. My personal choice is to ensure that everything I consume gives me good nourishment in some way. I'm not perfect by any means, but eating whole foods is super important to me. It might not be that important to someone else -- to someone else, it might be all about the weight loss. But for me, it's so much more than that. It's becoming healthy in every sense of the word.0
This discussion has been closed.
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