Re-Feeds

JoRocka

My bulking breathren...
I'm asking here (for obvious reasons) your thoughts on refeeds.

Someone suggested to me today about my refeeds... which- happen by default do to BF and I's schedule and typically once a week I go out and I'm usually at maintenance. Considering I've had such a hard time getting calories down- and those on my friend list know I'm running again (the horror I KNOW) I'm pretty solid with my numbers and what needs to happen.

Being said- one of the guys asked me how long I had been "so low" (PS so low is around 1650- and I haven't been really losing on TDEE with that method) ... and I said- oh Gee- I dunno- since September? I think I officially switched to TDEE October but I had been trying to work my way down in weight since May/June time frame. with several plateaus.

Now- I'm obviously back in teh right direction
(hubba hubba- dem abz gurl!!!)

But- he suggested my refeeds needed to be higher than maintenance.

So when you refeed on a cut ...

no back up.

WHEN you're cutting: how often do you refeed?
Do you even refeed- or do you just go for a month- hit maintenance- then back at it again?

And if/when you do refeed how high do you go? Above maintenance? at maintenance?

Inquiring minds want to know.

I never schedule mine- but I'm never "not" fed- I mean high/low days bla bla- but with the cardio- weight is dropping. ... but with the numbers I tossed out he said I should be getting at least 2500 every 7 or 10 days ish.

And I am not chronically OPPOSED to that- but that's almost 1000 calories over what I'm eating... that's enough to dent my deficit pretty significantly on a weekly basis.

So I'm consulting my friends here... because generally I take gym advice with a grain of salt. I like the guy- he's nice- and he looks good- lifts well- seems smart- and he seemed to imply this is what "he did" (whatever that means) and he was not trying to be a douche about it- he kind of said- well that's my thought- let me know in a month if you want/need to talk more if you stall.

Anyway- musing. thoughts. share.

ready GO!

gratuitous abs may follow.

NRBreit

Every time I've done an extended cut (10-20 weeks) I eventually plateau out and stop losing even on very low calories. As soon as I refeed....boom, I lose weight. For me, I try for once or twice a month, well above maintenance, eating whatever I want for a day or 2.

ndj1979

tagging to follow because I am curious about this too….

SideSteel

I tend to start refeeds at a 1/week frequency by setting calories at least to maintenance if not just a pinch above but you're really estimating anyways.

I would position the refeed, if possible, such that you can take the most performance advantage from it. (Position it day of a tough workout or day before if you train early AM).

I tend to keep fats quite low, leave protein at whatever your normal cutting protein intake is, and jack carbs through the roof.

I tend to mainly use refeeds for myself when I get down to about 13% bodyfat or so and I've never seen a need/reason to go beyond 1/week frequency, cutting down to the 9-10% range.

I will occasionally use refeeds in overweight clients if I feel it may benefit adherence, lifestyle or performance even though the physiological merits may be diminished in that population since leptin isn't as likely to tank in that population.

ndj1979

SideSteel wrote: »

I tend to start refeeds at a 1/week frequency by setting calories at least to maintenance if not just a pinch above but you're really estimating anyways.

I would position the refeed, if possible, such that you can take the most performance advantage from it. (Position it day of a tough workout or day before if you train early AM).

I tend to keep fats quite low, leave protein at whatever your normal cutting protein intake is, and jack carbs through the roof.

I tend to mainly use refeeds for myself when I get down to about 13% bodyfat or so and I've never seen a need/reason to go beyond 1/week frequency, cutting down to the 9-10% range.

I will occasionally use refeeds in overweight clients if I feel it may benefit adherence, lifestyle or performance even though the physiological merits may be diminished in that population since leptin isn't as likely to tank in that population.

so once a week once you get back down to 13% or lower?

curious - do you do them at 14% and higher or wait until 13% threshold?

SideSteel

ndj1979 wrote: »

SideSteel wrote: »

I tend to start refeeds at a 1/week frequency by setting calories at least to maintenance if not just a pinch above but you're really estimating anyways.

I would position the refeed, if possible, such that you can take the most performance advantage from it. (Position it day of a tough workout or day before if you train early AM).

I tend to keep fats quite low, leave protein at whatever your normal cutting protein intake is, and jack carbs through the roof.

I tend to mainly use refeeds for myself when I get down to about 13% bodyfat or so and I've never seen a need/reason to go beyond 1/week frequency, cutting down to the 9-10% range.

I will occasionally use refeeds in overweight clients if I feel it may benefit adherence, lifestyle or performance even though the physiological merits may be diminished in that population since leptin isn't as likely to tank in that population.

so once a week once you get back down to 13% or lower?

curious - do you do them at 14% and higher or wait until 13% threshold?

I don't have a hard-and-fast rule about it but the above is generally right for me.

The rationale behind it is as follows:

I START a cut around 15-16% bodyfat give or take. I also tend to start out a bit aggressive with dieting and I stay aggressive for 1-2 weeks then I get a little more sane/patient with the deficit.

Since it doesn't take that long for me to get from 15% to 13% with an aggressive initial diet, I'm really not in any need of a refeed for adherence or performance purposes. It's also the same reason that I start out a bit aggressive in the early phases of a cut. I'm fatter so I have more fat to oxidize so I can afford to be a bit aggressive with less risk, I just came off a surplus so performance is going to be high and adherence/satiety aren't going to be issues. So for all these reasons it's basically that I'm fine toughing it out for a few weeks.

Right around 13% give or take I decide to toss in refeeds.

I tend to notice a few things with refeeds:

1) Hunger on refeed day is actually quite high.
2 Hunger AFTER refeed day is very diminished.

Weight tends to spike post refeed then I'll hit a new low a couple of days after that.


I'm rambling, but I also think refeeds take some planning if you're new to it. It helps a ton to map out what you're going to eat. My refeeds were over 500g carbs and if you're not used to 500g cho it helps to actually map that out in advance to figure out WTF you're going to eat such that you can hit that cho without going way over on fat.

butterbear1980

There was a nice blog at em2wl "re-feedsis it just hype" (sorry can't figure out how to post links on my phone).

So I've had some success doing the kindofcrazy High Everything Diet advocated by matt stone. Have you come across his ebooks? Basically take your temp first thing in the a.m. if your basal is low ( mine was 95.5 so...I kind of freaked out and did his recommended rest and aggressive refeeding. ). Its worth a read because at your activity level you should be able to eat more. I've gone from 2030 maintnence to 2600 after my month long refeed at 3600/day and three month bulk so now I'm cutting nowat more than maintnence used to be.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

auddii

Not sure if this actually contributes to this thread or not, but I know I have problems on Saturdays staying withing goal whether I'm cutting or eating at maintenance. Most Saturdays I'm out with friends and gaming, which means tons of snacks around plus we eat out for both lunch and dinner (or we make dinner and it isn't always the healthiest).

To compensate, I eat 200 calories less throughout the week and then I get "saturday calories" of 1400 added on Saturdays. This puts me well above maintenance, and (I'm sad to admit) I still usually go over calories. It's actually something I need to work on.

That said, I have no idea if that would even work like a "refeed" since I'm compensating with a lower goal throughout the week, but it's the only way I've found to deal with my Saturdays. No clue if it's actually helpful for weight loss or not; for me it's mental. And as Patrick said, I usually have a huge spike the next day (and lifting is awesome on Sundays) and then my weight steadily drops throughout the week with me usually hitting a low weight on Friday or Saturday morning.

_benjammin

I've only done one "proper" cut and did what SideSteel said.

JoRocka

SideSteel wrote: »

ndj1979 wrote: »

SideSteel wrote: »

I tend to start refeeds at a 1/week frequency by setting calories at least to maintenance if not just a pinch above but you're really estimating anyways.

I would position the refeed, if possible, such that you can take the most performance advantage from it. (Position it day of a tough workout or day before if you train early AM).

I tend to keep fats quite low, leave protein at whatever your normal cutting protein intake is, and jack carbs through the roof.

I tend to mainly use refeeds for myself when I get down to about 13% bodyfat or so and I've never seen a need/reason to go beyond 1/week frequency, cutting down to the 9-10% range.

I will occasionally use refeeds in overweight clients if I feel it may benefit adherence, lifestyle or performance even though the physiological merits may be diminished in that population since leptin isn't as likely to tank in that population.

so once a week once you get back down to 13% or lower?

curious - do you do them at 14% and higher or wait until 13% threshold?

I don't have a hard-and-fast rule about it but the above is generally right for me.

The rationale behind it is as follows:

I START a cut around 15-16% bodyfat give or take. I also tend to start out a bit aggressive with dieting and I stay aggressive for 1-2 weeks then I get a little more sane/patient with the deficit.

Since it doesn't take that long for me to get from 15% to 13% with an aggressive initial diet, I'm really not in any need of a refeed for adherence or performance purposes. It's also the same reason that I start out a bit aggressive in the early phases of a cut. I'm fatter so I have more fat to oxidize so I can afford to be a bit aggressive with less risk, I just came off a surplus so performance is going to be high and adherence/satiety aren't going to be issues. So for all these reasons it's basically that I'm fine toughing it out for a few weeks.

Right around 13% give or take I decide to toss in refeeds.

I tend to notice a few things with refeeds:

1) Hunger on refeed day is actually quite high.
2 Hunger AFTER refeed day is very diminished.

Weight tends to spike post refeed then I'll hit a new low a couple of days after that.


I'm rambling, but I also think refeeds take some planning if you're new to it. It helps a ton to map out what you're going to eat. My refeeds were over 500g carbs and if you're not used to 500g cho it helps to actually map that out in advance to figure out WTF you're going to eat such that you can hit that cho without going way over on fat.

ramble away- it's extremely helpful.

I just have never felt I've been in a position of enough extremes or high end performance- or rather just leave it at extremes- to need/warrant "extras". And what I feel like I'm reading is that when you are getting low enough you get "stuck" a refeed helps.

I was showing one of the guys at the gym the picture (the one I have up) and I was like- I dunno- thinking I'm still mid 20's- he was guessing 20-22%- but it makes me feel better that you don't typically start doing it till you get much lower.

I still am carrying a fair bit of body fat all in all- and unless I'm actively flexing- you can't tell how big I really am- so yeah- I just don't think I'm needing it- other than to just pull myself out of a deficit for training purposes for a week or two to not beat my body up and get injured.

Looking back at my log- it's clear I'm not good at meeting my goals- but it's consistent "enough".... interesting. I honestly don't think I'm in need of refeeds- given that I go out to eat with the BF on a weekly basis- and then I have a dance event once a month where I usually wind up over a bit- I am just not seeing a need- I'm not in a steep enough deficit at this point I don't think.

Werd- yes- carbs.

carbs- they are a thing. LOL.

AKDonF

Side Steel has it pretty much exactly right. Refeeds should probably happen every other week when bf is higher and increase slightly in frequency as you get to a lower %. Then it is once a week and I do them the day before deadlifts. I believe it best to cut protein to about .8g/lb of bw and set fats as low as you can humanly stand it for one day. I shoot for about 15g. As SideSteel said, push carbs up as high as possible. Your total calories should be about 30% more than what you are habitually eating on the cut. It definitely works for multiple reasons, but I wont get into the technicalities now.

MityMax96

I have always viewed refeeds based on how lean I am.....or maybe if I am looking flat.

If you are higher in BF, then a refeed is not needed as often.....if you are 12 - 15% BF, then I would say 5 - 7 weeks.

Lower BF then every other week, or week to week if ~5-6%

And as mentioned above work them in around a big workout
Cause you want to jack the carbs, and keep fats low on your refeed.....
Protein can stay at or slightly below norms.

richln

I also like Side Steel's advice, except I start my refeeds 2 weeks into my cut regardless of what bf% I am at. I go big with about 1000 cals over normal cut levels and never have trouble dropping weight. I do them weekly and they work wonders for me. Some people at really low bf% (well below 10% for men) do them twice a week, but I never go that low so I have never tried that.

DopeItUp

Don't have time to read the thread but I do refeeds once a week, aiming for at minimum maintenance. Maximum about 2000 over maintenance. Usually somewhere in between.

NRBreit

SideSteel wrote: »

ndj1979 wrote: »

SideSteel wrote: »

Right around 13% give or take I decide to toss in refeeds.

I tend to notice a few things with refeeds:

Weight tends to spike post refeed then I'll hit a new low a couple of days after that.

Yup.

NRBreit

NRBreit wrote: »

SideSteel wrote: »

ndj1979 wrote: »

SideSteel wrote: »

Right around 13% give or take I decide to toss in refeeds.

I tend to notice a few things with refeeds:

Weight tends to spike post refeed then I'll hit a new low a couple of days after that.

Yup.

NRBreit

NRBreit wrote: »

NRBreit wrote: »

SideSteel wrote: »

ndj1979 wrote: »

SideSteel wrote: »

Right around 13% give or take I decide to toss in refeeds.

I tend to notice a few things with refeeds:

Weight tends to spike post refeed then I'll hit a new low a couple of days after that.

Yup.

Yup.

JoRocka

MityMax96 wrote: »

I have always viewed refeeds based on how lean I am.....or maybe if I am looking flat.

If you are higher in BF, then a refeed is not needed as often.....if you are 12 - 15% BF, then I would say 5 - 7 weeks.

Lower BF then every other week, or week to week if ~5-6%

And as mentioned above work them in around a big workout
Cause you want to jack the carbs, and keep fats low on your refeed.....
Protein can stay at or slightly below norms.

curious as to the repeat "keep the fats as low as humanly possible"

why is that?

MityMax96

JoRocka wrote: »

MityMax96 wrote: »

I have always viewed refeeds based on how lean I am.....or maybe if I am looking flat.

If you are higher in BF, then a refeed is not needed as often.....if you are 12 - 15% BF, then I would say 5 - 7 weeks.

Lower BF then every other week, or week to week if ~5-6%

And as mentioned above work them in around a big workout
Cause you want to jack the carbs, and keep fats low on your refeed.....
Protein can stay at or slightly below norms.

curious as to the repeat "keep the fats as low as humanly possible"

why is that?

during a refeed, the idea is usually to supply a lot of carbs to the body to replenish glycogen in the muscle, as well as water intake in to the muscle from the glycogen uptake in the muscle.
Increased fat during this process can impede uptake, so that is why you typically want to limit fat during the process.

Take anyone during peak week before a show, when they do their carb reloads 2 days out, they will cut fat way down......
Taking something like r-ala will also help during this process.

JoRocka

mk- interesting.

MityMax96

Love the profile pic.

MityMax96

and one other thing with a carb refeed is to trigger a Leptin response.....
Carbs have been shown to produce a better leptin response than other sources...

So again going back to the BF% and why you do a refeed....
At higher BF levels, you have a lot of leptin in your body.....but your body isn't responding as well to it.
As you lower BF, the leptin becomes less and less.....so that is one reason why at lower BF levels, it is hard to lose that last little bit.

So you do a big carb reload to kick your body into producing more leptin, which is the hormone that triggers the burning of BF

SideSteel

Two main reasons to keep fat low-ish:

1). Because that allows you more carbs and leptin is tied to carb intake.
2) I believe Lyle makes a case for keeping fat low to prevent fat regain since you're likely eating in a surplus.

Unknown

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MityMax96

MrM27 wrote: »

Even though I really dislike quoting this guy but Jason Blaha said something along the same lines. In a surplus dietary fat has a much easier time being stores.

reason being is that in times of excess, your body will oxidize other things over fat first.
So fat is stored....
Really hard to store carbs as fat......
And I don't think it's possible at all for protein to be stored as fat (I could be wrong), but we have VERY LARGE protein stores....

DymonNdaRgh40

So much good info here. Bookmarking for future reference.

Thanks everyone!

cwolfman13

My coach has me doing a re-feed once per week in my cut. I'm a little iffy on the science, but on the other hand it kind of makes sense. I'm going with it though...coach hasn't steered me wrong yet.

MityMax96

If it is working for you, then do it.
Like everything, you have to see how your body responds to things....

AKDonF

There is reasons to reefed even at higher bf% on occasion and that is because fat cells have a sort of "sensor" that monitor for carbohydrates. Using this information is what causes the body to up or down regulate leptin, which up or down regulates metabolism. The boost in carbs gives these receptors a 'false' sense that carb intake is high.

Also, when fat cells are oxidized (because of caloric restriction) they absorb water to fill themselves. Eating carbs will help draw the water out of the cells (somewhat).

The low fat thing is exactly what has been said; de nova lipogenisis (aka, fat is easily stored, but carbohydrates are difficult for the body to store as fat.

macydawn23

auddii wrote: »

Not sure if this actually contributes to this thread or not, but I know I have problems on Saturdays staying withing goal whether I'm cutting or eating at maintenance. Most Saturdays I'm out with friends and gaming, which means tons of snacks around plus we eat out for both lunch and dinner (or we make dinner and it isn't always the healthiest).

To compensate, I eat 200 calories less throughout the week and then I get "saturday calories" of 1400 added on Saturdays. This puts me well above maintenance, and (I'm sad to admit) I still usually go over calories. It's actually something I need to work on.

That said, I have no idea if that would even work like a "refeed" since I'm compensating with a lower goal throughout the week, but it's the only way I've found to deal with my Saturdays. No clue if it's actually helpful for weight loss or not; for me it's mental. And as Patrick said, I usually have a huge spike the next day (and lifting is awesome on Sundays) and then my weight steadily drops throughout the week with me usually hitting a low weight on Friday or Saturday morning.

I am having the same problems with my Sundays... I was told I didn't need a reefed since my deficit isn't super low but I don't track on Sundays and I am sure I always go over by a little bit... I almost feel like my hard work through the week is just for nothing since I am eating more on Sundays. Do you ever feel that way?