Re-Feeds
Replies
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If you go over one day a week, then you could be blowing out any deficit you had during the week....effectively having you spinning your wheels...and getting no where.0
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If you go over one day a week, then you could be blowing out any deficit you had during the week....effectively having you spinning your wheels...and getting no where.
Which was my aversion to doing a refeed- esp one so much higher- hitting 1600-1700 calories on a good day- on a bad day I'm between 17-1800 and wasn't losing.
Added in the cardio and really started to tighten up- throwing in almost 1000 calories is going to wreck the work the cardio is doing (I think- in my case)
But I wanted to open the discussion on it- and it seems my first instinct was right... "not needed yet" I'm going to start training I think for a longer event so I'll be able to eat a little more- i'm not wildly concerned- more curious.
As usual you all have been exceptionally helpful
no new abs or quads or glutes tonight... we went to Texas Roadhouse... I ate...
a lot.
LMAO0 -
Love Texas Roadhouse.0
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yeah their rolls.
I struggle with the rolls. mightely.0 -
If you go over one day a week, then you could be blowing out any deficit you had during the week....effectively having you spinning your wheels...and getting no where.
I think it depends mostly on how leptin and glycogen depleted you are at the time of your refeed. This study suggests that highly glycogen-depleted individuals can go up to 500g of carbs on a refeed before the body starts storing any fat. There is another study somewhere with a higher sample size and a 1-day refeed that showed similar results, but I can't remember where I saw it. So refeeds should work well for people who are eating low-carb, but people who are cutting on moderate or high-carb probably should avoid refeeds. If you are seeing a big weight gain the day after a refeed, then it is probably working well (glycogen-induced water storage). I have seen as much as a 12 pound increase the day after a refeed.
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I'm clearly not an expert on refeeds- but me thinks if you blow your deficit- you blow your deficit- high or low carb be damned.0
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If you go over one day a week, then you could be blowing out any deficit you had during the week....effectively having you spinning your wheels...and getting no where.
I think it depends mostly on how leptin and glycogen depleted you are at the time of your refeed. This study suggests that highly glycogen-depleted individuals can go up to 500g of carbs on a refeed before the body starts storing any fat. There is another study somewhere with a higher sample size and a 1-day refeed that showed similar results, but I can't remember where I saw it. So refeeds should work well for people who are eating low-carb, but people who are cutting on moderate or high-carb probably should avoid refeeds. If you are seeing a big weight gain the day after a refeed, then it is probably working well (glycogen-induced water storage). I have seen as much as a 12 pound increase the day after a refeed.
If you are completely depleted...your glycogen stores will be in the range of 15*BW in Kg.
I know for me, if I am fully depleted
I am looking at 1100 - 1200 gr in carbs to replenish0 -
I'm clearly not an expert on refeeds- but me thinks if you blow your deficit- you blow your deficit- high or low carb be damned.
You do.
That is why you plan your re-feeds accordingly. And again, keeping fat at a minimum during the refeed.
So again I point back to what I said earlier....your BF being <12% is about where I would consider adding in refeeds0 -
macydawn23 wrote: »Not sure if this actually contributes to this thread or not, but I know I have problems on Saturdays staying withing goal whether I'm cutting or eating at maintenance. Most Saturdays I'm out with friends and gaming, which means tons of snacks around plus we eat out for both lunch and dinner (or we make dinner and it isn't always the healthiest).
To compensate, I eat 200 calories less throughout the week and then I get "saturday calories" of 1400 added on Saturdays. This puts me well above maintenance, and (I'm sad to admit) I still usually go over calories. It's actually something I need to work on.
That said, I have no idea if that would even work like a "refeed" since I'm compensating with a lower goal throughout the week, but it's the only way I've found to deal with my Saturdays. No clue if it's actually helpful for weight loss or not; for me it's mental. And as Patrick said, I usually have a huge spike the next day (and lifting is awesome on Sundays) and then my weight steadily drops throughout the week with me usually hitting a low weight on Friday or Saturday morning.
I am having the same problems with my Sundays... I was told I didn't need a reefed since my deficit isn't super low but I don't track on Sundays and I am sure I always go over by a little bit... I almost feel like my hard work through the week is just for nothing since I am eating more on Sundays. Do you ever feel that way?
Personally, my "refeed" day is a mental need. I'm not at a point in my body composition where a refeed as others are discussing would be necessary. It could wipe out my defecit easily (even when it was 800 calories a day) on a Saturday. So, I plan for it; I eat at a more severe deficit during the week so I don't blow my deficit on the weekend.
That said, I still see a huge spike in my weight on the scale. I then slowly lose the weight throughout the week and usually end up a little lower on the day before my next high day. It's a frustrating way to live if you live by the scale.
And the more I think about this, the less it has to do with the original intent of the post. Sorry Jo.0 -
I have always viewed refeeds based on how lean I am.....or maybe if I am looking flat.
If you are higher in BF, then a refeed is not needed as often.....if you are 12 - 15% BF, then I would say 5 - 7 weeks.
Lower BF then every other week, or week to week if ~5-6%
And as mentioned above work them in around a big workout
Cause you want to jack the carbs, and keep fats low on your refeed.....
Protein can stay at or slightly below norms.
^^
agree and concur. Use them feels and/or the mirror and rate workouts to guage as well0 -
I tend to start refeeds at a 1/week frequency by setting calories at least to maintenance if not just a pinch above but you're really estimating anyways.
I would position the refeed, if possible, such that you can take the most performance advantage from it. (Position it day of a tough workout or day before if you train early AM).
I tend to keep fats quite low, leave protein at whatever your normal cutting protein intake is, and jack carbs through the roof.
I tend to mainly use refeeds for myself when I get down to about 13% bodyfat or so and I've never seen a need/reason to go beyond 1/week frequency, cutting down to the 9-10% range.
I will occasionally use refeeds in overweight clients if I feel it may benefit adherence, lifestyle or performance even though the physiological merits may be diminished in that population since leptin isn't as likely to tank in that population.
I wanted to explain myself a bit better here since I may have not been thorough enough on the above. This is more for completeness sake for other people who may be reading the thread.
Refeeds are primarily for glycogen replenishment and Leptin upregulation. Leptin is a fat hormone and generally speaking it scales very well with body fat in both directions. Leptin also temporarily goes up in response to carbohydrate overfeeding. Eat tons of carbs, leptin temporarily goes up.
Leptin basically signals how much fat you are carrying and how much you are eating.
Because Leptin scales with body fat, carbohydrate refeeds for purposes of upregulating leptin aren't usually necessary in overweight or obese people (if you have excess body fat, you likely have good levels of circulating leptin and if you have very little bodyfat you like have very little circulating leptin).
When I said "I will occasionally use refeeds in overweight people" I should have given the above explanation to clarify that I will often use refeeds in lean people and I will occasionally use refeeds in overweight people.
There are also other benefits to refeeding (performance, possible better long term adherence depending on the person, satiety) outside of what may be happening with leptin.
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify the above so that it didn't sound like I will occasionally use refeeds on overweight people without specifically mentioning that I use them often with lean people.1 -
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No, I did not0
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I tend to start refeeds at a 1/week frequency by setting calories at least to maintenance if not just a pinch above but you're really estimating anyways.
I would position the refeed, if possible, such that you can take the most performance advantage from it. (Position it day of a tough workout or day before if you train early AM).
I tend to keep fats quite low, leave protein at whatever your normal cutting protein intake is, and jack carbs through the roof.
I tend to mainly use refeeds for myself when I get down to about 13% bodyfat or so and I've never seen a need/reason to go beyond 1/week frequency, cutting down to the 9-10% range.
I will occasionally use refeeds in overweight clients if I feel it may benefit adherence, lifestyle or performance even though the physiological merits may be diminished in that population since leptin isn't as likely to tank in that population.
I wanted to explain myself a bit better here since I may have not been thorough enough on the above. This is more for completeness sake for other people who may be reading the thread.
Refeeds are primarily for glycogen replenishment and Leptin upregulation. Leptin is a fat hormone and generally speaking it scales very well with body fat in both directions. Leptin also temporarily goes up in response to carbohydrate overfeeding. Eat tons of carbs, leptin temporarily goes up.
Leptin basically signals how much fat you are carrying and how much you are eating.
Because Leptin scales with body fat, carbohydrate refeeds for purposes of upregulating leptin aren't usually necessary in overweight or obese people (if you have excess body fat, you likely have good levels of circulating leptin and if you have very little bodyfat you like have very little circulating leptin).
When I said "I will occasionally use refeeds in overweight people" I should have given the above explanation to clarify that I will often use refeeds in lean people and I will occasionally use refeeds in overweight people.
There are also other benefits to refeeding (performance, possible better long term adherence depending on the person, satiety) outside of what may be happening with leptin.
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify the above so that it didn't sound like I will occasionally use refeeds on overweight people without specifically mentioning that I use them often with lean people.
Very thoughtful of you
Love your thoroughness- thank you for dropping some knowledge on us this morning 
/Week. I guess week. hard to keep track with a day off and all! Humph.Out of curiosity, have any of you that did incorporate refeeds ever get bad heartburn in the days you did refeed?
I haven't noticed anything with my informal refeeds (meaning- weekly dinner's out)- but I tend to still be careful with what I eat- I just eat more butter/sodium laced dining out food- but still mostly meats and veggies- I do include bread- but I never eat heavy starch/carb meals- just seems like a waste of money to me.
Being said- I never have had issues with that to date ever anyway. YMMV0 -
When I did Lyles UD2(a diet that works on a 3.5 day all body heavy weight lifting depletion workouts and cut/3.5 days of refeed and maintenance and power weight lifting for muscle growth) I did a big refeed after my depletion days and next day absolutely killed in on the weights. No heartburn, but I did worry about screwing up my pancreas. It just seemed so extreme. He also went off CICO theory on the second half of the week and kept the fat very low, his theory being that the body won't store the refeeded excess carbs as fat, just glycogen, which gets used next day in the workout.
I must say, it was an amazing experience but one that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
But nowadays when I overeat, instead of lolling around lazily, I do have a lot of get up and go, and my workouts have more breakthroughs in them, as I have developed a competitive mind, and am constantly pushing myself (unless I'm trying to have a rest and recovery week, which is annoyingly difficult). Through all my training I think on a deeper level my body tries NOT to store fat, it's weird, like its evolving somehow.0 -
So. I just wanted to come back this- considering I had a healthy dose of meat lovers pizza Friday night- so plento-carbs-... got to the gym yesterday morning- and had a horrible lift. thing I was 600 calories over my goal- which would around 2200 for me.
Seriously- I felt awful. Not like sick- but like weak. this is not the first time I've noticed this- all you can eat sushi for lunch- goto the gym 5 hours later- nope- nothing.
So- I feel like I'm missing something about this "carb up" lift better business. And honestly I'm sad- I want to eat the pizza's and smash my lifts
sad panda face. 0 -
So. I just wanted to come back this- considering I had a healthy dose of meat lovers pizza Friday night- so plento-carbs-... got to the gym yesterday morning- and had a horrible lift. thing I was 600 calories over my goal- which would around 2200 for me.
Seriously- I felt awful. Not like sick- but like weak. this is not the first time I've noticed this- all you can eat sushi for lunch- goto the gym 5 hours later- nope- nothing.
So- I feel like I'm missing something about this "carb up" lift better business. And honestly I'm sad- I want to eat the pizza's and smash my lifts sad panda face.
Unfortunately I usually don't get the superman strength the day after a big refeed/overfeed either. Often feel weak and lazy the day after. Throughout the rest of the week I do feel like I have more energy though. Never remember having any heartburn.0 -
So. I just wanted to come back this- considering I had a healthy dose of meat lovers pizza Friday night- so plento-carbs-... got to the gym yesterday morning- and had a horrible lift. thing I was 600 calories over my goal- which would around 2200 for me.
Seriously- I felt awful. Not like sick- but like weak. this is not the first time I've noticed this- all you can eat sushi for lunch- goto the gym 5 hours later- nope- nothing.
So- I feel like I'm missing something about this "carb up" lift better business. And honestly I'm sad- I want to eat the pizza's and smash my lifts sad panda face.
Eating meat lovers pizza is gonna be a lot of carbs, with a lot of fat, and very little protein.
Not something I would personally choose for a carb day....
Even though I LOVE SUSHI....I might not choose that either for a reload day.....
I know pizza makes me feel sluggish....
For me, pizza would be what I would view as a "cheat day" in my book....not a reload/refeed.
And a workout, day after may not be a GREAT workout....it may come a couple days later.
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Shoot I used to love the idea of having to do a refeed, I should've known it was too good to be true you just got to gorge on carbs. I mean a lot of carbs sounds awesome, but if you have to do it without much fat it sounds not so delicious. I'm trying to think what you'd even eat, like plain rice and bread?
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I do potatoes or white rice....and chicken...
Gummie bears....
pancakes, syrup.....0 -
Ok, it's sounding better again, I may need one after all...:)0
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I do potatoes or white rice....and chicken...
Gummie bears....
pancakes, syrup.....
yeah I don't really eat potatoes or pancakes.
White rice I do though.
usually rice and chicken- or rice and black beans.
I'll have to work on refining the process honestly. Because typically Pizza is my idea of a carb day!! because.
carbs.0 -
so what you're really saying is
refeeding- yerdoingitwrong.
LOL0 -
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I need one about once a week. I'm on a 500 cal deficit (2200). Days 1-3 after re-feed (I also allow myself to sleep a ton after re-feed day) I feel great. Just like being back at bulking status. Days 4 & 5 I start to feel deflated, less energy in general. Day 6 my lifts usually suck REAL bad. So on Day 7 I re-feed (eat at maintenance, with a bit more carbs than usual). Seems to be doing the trick.
If you have been cutting since September, that is likely a bit too long. Might be time to eat at a slight surplus for awhile to "reset" your metabolism. Eating at a lower calorie level for extended periods like that tends to just make your body slow the metabolism down to match the calorie input. I have heard 3-4 month is the absolute maximum for a cut, and that you should be trying to eat a bit above your maintenance every day, and then producing the cal deficit through exercise rather than just eating less. Keeps the body from dropping metabolism down too quickly.0 -
I need one about once a week. I'm on a 500 cal deficit (2200). Days 1-3 after re-feed (I also allow myself to sleep a ton after re-feed day) I feel great. Just like being back at bulking status. Days 4 & 5 I start to feel deflated, less energy in general. Day 6 my lifts usually suck REAL bad. So on Day 7 I re-feed (eat at maintenance, with a bit more carbs than usual). Seems to be doing the trick.
If you have been cutting since September, that is likely a bit too long. Might be time to eat at a slight surplus for awhile to "reset" your metabolism. Eating at a lower calorie level for extended periods like that tends to just make your body slow the metabolism down to match the calorie input. I have heard 3-4 month is the absolute maximum for a cut, and that you should be trying to eat a bit above your maintenance every day, and then producing the cal deficit through exercise rather than just eating less. Keeps the body from dropping metabolism down too quickly.
I suspect that last bit- of the 3-4 months in an extended cut is probably what my friend was referencing. I'm just struggling with the concept since I lost- lost lost- back down to my 160ish weight- and pretty much leveled out- so I stayed there for a while and then I opted to switch in October to TDEE to try to lose again- was only getting but so far - and now with the plus cardio- I'm looking leaner for sure.
I'm wondering if perhaps- drive through for 2-3 months with my cardio (2 times a week- 15 min minimum- so we aren't talking a crazy amount) and then reset. That puts me... where does that put me. March- April- right into June. Then coast through June- I'd REALLY love to get down to 150 and then bulk next year- that gets me back up to 165-170... I bulked a bit high last winter- and spent all summer into winter playing up down cut games.
So- would be nice to hit 150 so I can bulk for real next year. Bulking wins at life- and I want to be a winner.0 -
Shoot I used to love the idea of having to do a refeed, I should've known it was too good to be true you just got to gorge on carbs. I mean a lot of carbs sounds awesome, but if you have to do it without much fat it sounds not so delicious. I'm trying to think what you'd even eat, like plain rice and bread?
And are you looking to do a refeed because you need one or because you just want to eat a bunch of carbs?
No,I don't think I need one right now. Someone told me about it on another thread once and I was interested in the concept and filed it away for possible future need.
I eat a bunch of carbs from time to time, not as a refeed but because I want to. It would be cool if that was all there was to it, but such is life <shrug>
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so what you're really saying is
refeeding- yerdoingitwrong.
LOL
I would say you need to play with things and see what works for you.
Like I said for me....A carb refeed is just that. A lot of carbs from rice/pasta/potatoes/cereal/gummie bears. Maybe sushi, depending on what I get.
A cheat day, is just that, a lot of calories from different food sources....which happen to be high in fat and carbs, and not so much have a lot of protein.0 -
I need one about once a week. I'm on a 500 cal deficit (2200). Days 1-3 after re-feed (I also allow myself to sleep a ton after re-feed day) I feel great. Just like being back at bulking status. Days 4 & 5 I start to feel deflated, less energy in general. Day 6 my lifts usually suck REAL bad. So on Day 7 I re-feed (eat at maintenance, with a bit more carbs than usual). Seems to be doing the trick.
If you have been cutting since September, that is likely a bit too long. Might be time to eat at a slight surplus for awhile to "reset" your metabolism. Eating at a lower calorie level for extended periods like that tends to just make your body slow the metabolism down to match the calorie input. I have heard 3-4 month is the absolute maximum for a cut, and that you should be trying to eat a bit above your maintenance every day, and then producing the cal deficit through exercise rather than just eating less. Keeps the body from dropping metabolism down too quickly.
I suspect that last bit- of the 3-4 months in an extended cut is probably what my friend was referencing. I'm just struggling with the concept since I lost- lost lost- back down to my 160ish weight- and pretty much leveled out- so I stayed there for a while and then I opted to switch in October to TDEE to try to lose again- was only getting but so far - and now with the plus cardio- I'm looking leaner for sure.
I'm wondering if perhaps- drive through for 2-3 months with my cardio (2 times a week- 15 min minimum- so we aren't talking a crazy amount) and then reset. That puts me... where does that put me. March- April- right into June. Then coast through June- I'd REALLY love to get down to 150 and then bulk next year- that gets me back up to 165-170... I bulked a bit high last winter- and spent all summer into winter playing up down cut games.
So- would be nice to hit 150 so I can bulk for real next year. Bulking wins at life- and I want to be a winner.
I have not added back in cardio yet.
But when I do, it will be stairmaster mostly.....
And will be 30 - 45 min.
Will start back shooting for 30 min to build back up stamina....then will go to 45 min.0 -
I'm clearly not an expert on refeeds- but me thinks if you blow your deficit- you blow your deficit- high or low carb be damned.
When you do your refeed planning, remember that you are just adding calories to your normal intake. You do not need to lower calories over the rest of the week to compensate for the refeed surplus.
For example, if you have been making consistent weight-loss progress eating a constant 1600 cal/day with your normal "steady state" cutting diet, then you just add more calories on top of that for your refeed, maybe eat 2200 calories on refeed day. Although your Calories In has gone up, the refeed gives you the temporary partitioning effect (surplus carbs go to glycogen replenishment before lipogenesis), the temporary increase to metabolism, the leptin boost, and the extra energy to invest in your training.
If you are unsure about the amount of surplus to add on refeed day, anecdotal evidence suggests eat at TDEE or a few hundred over TDEE on refeed day, with some people going much higher. Of course, YMMV, so you will have to experiment to find the best surplus amount for you. If you follow all the other guidelines already mentioned in this thread, the surplus calories from refeed day should not have any negative effect on your overall deficit.0
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