why don't the low carb folks believe in CICO?
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nicsflyingcircus wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »
Would I be able to eat a serving at night of Ben & Jerry's Half Baked ice cream?blktngldhrt wrote: »
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
too many rules...
Rules? Keep your macros at 5% net carb 20% protein and 75% fat..give or take a few percent for each (whatever works best)..drink enough fluids and keep your sodium up. Done.
How much cardio you wanna do? Anything is possible. The question is if it's worth it.
This doesn't even make sense...
Why?
Because he asked if he could have half baked ice cream..which is 32g of net carbs. In order to fit it into the keto macros he would need to have a large number of calories to work with in order to get the desired amount of ice cream and stay within the 5%. Exercise increases the number of calories one can eat..this increasing the number
of carbs.
For example, I ate 1824 calories last Thursday and my carbs were 30g net or 9%. I would have easily been able to skip the beer and jerky and have a half serving of the ice cream that day. Some people can be in ketosis at 9% carb. I, personally like 4-5% better for my blood glucose.
Because in my crazy world of just eating a well balanced and nutritious diet, I don't need to do *kitten* loads of cardio just to have a little ice cream for desert. But hey...I live in crazy land over here....
Everything you're talking about sounds like cruel and unusual punishment...I get why you do it...you have a pretty legit reason medically...I don't see how this would be appealing at all to anyone who didn't need to do it.
I have to say- I completely agree with @cwolfman13 , I do it because like you said to her- I have a legit medical reason for doing it- but can't see how it would be appealing to someone without a medical reason
It's appealing to me because I feel more satiated on the same calories doing LCHF than I did doing solely calorie counting with more "balanced" macros. Plus, I prefer salt/savory/meaty to sweet and starchy, so it works -for me-. I am not a high performance athlete, though I am making efforts on the "move more" part of the deal.
I do not preach about it, nor in fact truly discuss it much outside the keto boards because it always turns into "eat what you want and make it fit" and what people don't seem to get is that is what I am doing. I just don't happen to care to make bread/pasta/potatoes/sweets/etc... fit... right now.
*Disclaimer: I lost 80lbs straight calorie counting before switching to LCHF and another 60 since then. In both cases I am counting calories, I just feel better/fuller/happier what have you, in the second case*
Cool- thanks. I genuinely was interested and really couldn't understand why someone would do it without a medical issue- but your explanation makes sense. I think I may follow your rule about not discussing it outside the PCOS or low carber boards cause you are right.....0 -
I bought into it big time. Ate "primal." Was averaging around 20-30 carbs a day. Gained a f***ton of weight.0
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Please don't try and breakdown math as if I didn't understand how the numbers work. The point is if I was going to do keto and wanted to eat my ice cream I mentioned then I would have to go do a bunch of cardio in order to keep myself at 5%. So that would be a rule. If I don't do the cardio then no ice cream. If I eat the ice cream then the rule is I have to go do a bunch of ice cream every day to stay at the 5% mark.cwolfman13 wrote: »
Would I be able to eat a serving at night of Ben & Jerry's Half Baked ice cream?blktngldhrt wrote: »
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
too many rules...
Rules? Keep your macros at 5% net carb 20% protein and 75% fat..give or take a few percent for each (whatever works best)..drink enough fluids and keep your sodium up. Done.
How much cardio you wanna do? Anything is possible. The question is if it's worth it.
This doesn't even make sense...
Yup. So either I would not be able to eat the ice cream or as per here numbers I would have to do almost 700 calories worth of cardio. 2 rules, too many rules
If you were doing strict keto. If you were doing generic low carb, it would fit, but you'd probably have to eat less vegetables that day to offset it.
So what you're saying is more rules?
Nope, just basic math. 1 carb = 4 calories, 1 protein = 4 calories, 1 fat = 9 calories. For every 4 calories of carb you need 76 calories of protein and fat at 5/20/75. OTOH, if you don't do LC, and your macros are 50/25/25, you need 4 calories of protein and fat for every 4 calories of carb. The equation is the same, whether you do LC or LF or even balance. All that changes is the value of the variables. If you're carb loading, you need to make sure your fat and protein are restricted, or else you need to burn the extra calories you get from them. Nothing is different except the values in the equation.
If LC is "extra rules," that means LF is extra rules, carb loading is extra rules, everything is extra rules.
So once again, too many rules. If you refuse to acknowledge that because it validates that argument that NDJ said "too many rules" when he was told "there weren't" then that's fine with me. But don't sit here and debate something you know is true.
How is keeping your carbs at 5% more rules than keeping your fat at 20% or keeping your protein at 40%?0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »
Would I be able to eat a serving at night of Ben & Jerry's Half Baked ice cream?blktngldhrt wrote: »
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
too many rules...
Rules? Keep your macros at 5% net carb 20% protein and 75% fat..give or take a few percent for each (whatever works best)..drink enough fluids and keep your sodium up. Done.
How much cardio you wanna do? Anything is possible. The question is if it's worth it.
This doesn't even make sense...
Yup. So either I would not be able to eat the ice cream or as per here numbers I would have to do almost 700 calories worth of cardio. 2 rules, too many rules
If you were doing strict keto. If you were doing generic low carb, it would fit, but you'd probably have to eat less vegetables that day to offset it.
So what you're saying is more rules?
Nope, just basic math. 1 carb = 4 calories, 1 protein = 4 calories, 1 fat = 9 calories. For every 4 calories of carb you need 76 calories of protein and fat at 5/20/75. OTOH, if you don't do LC, and your macros are 50/25/25, you need 4 calories of protein and fat for every 4 calories of carb. The equation is the same, whether you do LC or LF or even balance. All that changes is the value of the variables. If you're carb loading, you need to make sure your fat and protein are restricted, or else you need to burn the extra calories you get from them. Nothing is different except the values in the equation.
If LC is "extra rules," that means LF is extra rules, carb loading is extra rules, everything is extra rules.
Well, yeah. Everything that goes beyond "eat less calories than you burn (if possible with appropriate nutrition)" is unnecessary addition to the goal of losing fat. They all work, but they work because of that one thing, everything else is just tacked on extra rules you set for yourself because you want to or have to because of medical reasons or whatever.0 -
Glad I made myself a rum and sprite for this thread. A double.0
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Please don't try and breakdown math as if I didn't understand how the numbers work. The point is if I was going to do keto and wanted to eat my ice cream I mentioned then I would have to go do a bunch of cardio in order to keep myself at 5%. So that would be a rule. If I don't do the cardio then no ice cream. If I eat the ice cream then the rule is I have to go do a bunch of ice cream every day to stay at the 5% mark.cwolfman13 wrote: »
Would I be able to eat a serving at night of Ben & Jerry's Half Baked ice cream?blktngldhrt wrote: »
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
too many rules...
Rules? Keep your macros at 5% net carb 20% protein and 75% fat..give or take a few percent for each (whatever works best)..drink enough fluids and keep your sodium up. Done.
How much cardio you wanna do? Anything is possible. The question is if it's worth it.
This doesn't even make sense...
Yup. So either I would not be able to eat the ice cream or as per here numbers I would have to do almost 700 calories worth of cardio. 2 rules, too many rules
If you were doing strict keto. If you were doing generic low carb, it would fit, but you'd probably have to eat less vegetables that day to offset it.
So what you're saying is more rules?
Nope, just basic math. 1 carb = 4 calories, 1 protein = 4 calories, 1 fat = 9 calories. For every 4 calories of carb you need 76 calories of protein and fat at 5/20/75. OTOH, if you don't do LC, and your macros are 50/25/25, you need 4 calories of protein and fat for every 4 calories of carb. The equation is the same, whether you do LC or LF or even balance. All that changes is the value of the variables. If you're carb loading, you need to make sure your fat and protein are restricted, or else you need to burn the extra calories you get from them. Nothing is different except the values in the equation.
If LC is "extra rules," that means LF is extra rules, carb loading is extra rules, everything is extra rules.
So once again, too many rules. If you refuse to acknowledge that because it validates that argument that NDJ said "too many rules" when he was told "there weren't" then that's fine with me. But don't sit here and debate something you know is true.
How is keeping your carbs at 5% more rules than keeping your fat at 20% or keeping your protein at 40%?
Then there are a lot of people who have no such rules...like me.
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I'm losing faith in CICO....
I don't believe in it because it's wrong. Just like we turned out to be wrong about fat. Etc. Etc.
You don't identify anything supporting it being wrong, and don't even explain what you mean by "it's wrong." Are you saying calories don't matter, or simply that a variety of things affect the calories in vs. calories out equation (which everyone already agrees with)?
If calories don't matter, what does?Different types of calories have different effects, 100 calories of chips is different than 100 calories of lettuce.
There are no 100 calories of chips or 100 calories of lettuce, just calories. In addition to the energy, the foods contribute different nutrients (lettuce (as opposed to spinach or some such) doesn't actually have a lot of anything and I'm not sure how you are getting 100 calories of it, but whatever). No one claims that the nutrients are identical. Also, there are somewhat different burns related to digestion, but it's unusual to have a macro mix where that makes much of a difference (that would mean a crazy amount of protein, typically, and you need either fat or carbs for energy). Also, of course there are different effects of the macros involved--chips will provide energy, for example, since they have lots of carbs and fat. Lettuce has fiber. I will agree it would be pretty impossible to get fat eating an all lettuce diet, but that's because you wouldn't be able to eat many calories and you'd feel bad. (And of course all anything diets are silly.)I have days where I eat a boiled egg and an orange and lose nothing, and then days where I gorge myself senseless on Indian buffet food (since I'm gluten-free, it's basically meat, veggies, and fat)... and then drop 5 pounds.
You can't tell how any one day affected you. It doesn't work like that. I always gorge myself on Indian food and I eat gluten, so it ends up being one of the higher carb meals I ever eat, and yet I've gone down on the scale the day after. I fasted on Good Friday last year and ate lots on Easter and yet my weight went down more on the Monday after Easter than on Holy Saturday. Pretty sure this isn't because my Easter calories magically did not count (although maybe that's a holiday miracle). Instead, it's that the scale bounces up and down for all kinds of reasons.WHAT? That doesn't fit calories-in-calories-out.
Sure it does.'Cause of stuff like metabolisms.
People's metabolism vary. My maintenance calories if I'm sedentary suck, they are about 1550. Some 21 year old 6'3 guy could be sedentary and eat lots more without gaining. That says zero about the merits of CICO. Someone with a bum thyroid will have super low maintenance calories if not medicated often. Again, that means their CO is screwed up, not that CICO doesn't work.I don't calorie count, I don't meticulously track... I put things in when I remember to. And I'm losing weight at a rate that satisfies me... 1-2 pounds a week.
Yes, many people can lose without counting calories specifically. I've done it myself. That doesn't mean that you aren't losing because of a calorie deficit. Of course you are. You've just created it through a method other than counting, which some people prefer.basically people with glucose resistance had higher success with low-carb, and people who weren't on the track to diabetes, had more success with low-fat diets in the study.
I think this is because of compliance issues, but it also might be that carbs have more of an effect (negative) on metabolism in IR people. I know various other things, like exercise, make a difference as to how foods affect you (for example, exercise tends to make people less insulin resistant).It'd be nice if weight loss was just math. But it isn't.
It is, it's just there are lots of variables and we can't include all of them. For MOST people, we can include the important ones, though. (For those with medical conditions it is more complicated sometimes.)0 -
There are many examples where CICO doesn't turn up in the form "eat 500 cals/day less and lose 1 lb/week". Not specifically low carb either.
Kevin D Hall is a high priest of CICO maths but his recent poster on reducing fat vs reduces carbs appears to have a large hole in it - having taken out 800 cals of carbs from the low carb arm the subjects increased their oxidation of fat by ~400 cals from reserves with a small reduction in TDEE. Where did the other energy come from ?
If CICO is primary, why do MFP forums chastise overweight people for "eating too little" ?
My personal view is that a steady state mass and energy balance will hold true if done properly, but it's a post-hoc accounting exercise. You can't set or control a deficit, you can eat less or different food and do more or different activities and see how your body responds.0 -
Unless they've never known what it's like not to feel the way they do. They might well take it for granted that that's their normal. Or sure, they may wonder, "why do I feel so bad", but find themselves told "hey, you're good, see look at these numbers [perhaps not the relevant ones], it's all in your head".[/quote]
That's very true but most people develop metabolic syndrome and/or insulin resistance over time… They usually aren't born with it. So chances are they felt a certain way BEFORE beginning to develop metabolic syndrome. Then came the dizziness, extreme hunger, shakiness, abdominal weight gain, vision problems, etc.
[/quote]
It often happens so gradually, and with many life issues cropping up, that you don't notice right away. Well at least for me, but Im pretty certain that I am NOT a special snowflake, so Im pretty sure its that way for others too.0 -
nicsflyingcircus wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »
Would I be able to eat a serving at night of Ben & Jerry's Half Baked ice cream?blktngldhrt wrote: »
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
too many rules...
Rules? Keep your macros at 5% net carb 20% protein and 75% fat..give or take a few percent for each (whatever works best)..drink enough fluids and keep your sodium up. Done.
How much cardio you wanna do? Anything is possible. The question is if it's worth it.
This doesn't even make sense...
Why?
Because he asked if he could have half baked ice cream..which is 32g of net carbs. In order to fit it into the keto macros he would need to have a large number of calories to work with in order to get the desired amount of ice cream and stay within the 5%. Exercise increases the number of calories one can eat..this increasing the number
of carbs.
For example, I ate 1824 calories last Thursday and my carbs were 30g net or 9%. I would have easily been able to skip the beer and jerky and have a half serving of the ice cream that day. Some people can be in ketosis at 9% carb. I, personally like 4-5% better for my blood glucose.
Because in my crazy world of just eating a well balanced and nutritious diet, I don't need to do *kitten* loads of cardio just to have a little ice cream for desert. But hey...I live in crazy land over here....
Everything you're talking about sounds like cruel and unusual punishment...I get why you do it...you have a pretty legit reason medically...I don't see how this would be appealing at all to anyone who didn't need to do it.
I have to say- I completely agree with @cwolfman13 , I do it because like you said to her- I have a legit medical reason for doing it- but can't see how it would be appealing to someone without a medical reason
It's appealing to me because I feel more satiated on the same calories doing LCHF than I did doing solely calorie counting with more "balanced" macros. Plus, I prefer salt/savory/meaty to sweet and starchy, so it works -for me-. I am not a high performance athlete, though I am making efforts on the "move more" part of the deal.
I do not preach about it, nor in fact truly discuss it much outside the keto boards because it always turns into "eat what you want and make it fit" and what people don't seem to get is that is what I am doing. I just don't happen to care to make bread/pasta/potatoes/sweets/etc... fit... right now.
*Disclaimer: I lost 80lbs straight calorie counting before switching to LCHF and another 60 since then. In both cases I am counting calories, I just feel better/fuller/happier what have you, in the second case*
Cool- thanks. I genuinely was interested and really couldn't understand why someone would do it without a medical issue- but your explanation makes sense. I think I may follow your rule about not discussing it outside the PCOS or low carber boards cause you are right.....
For what it's worth, nic's reasoning makes total sense to me and I never get why people have such trouble understanding why LCHF might appeal to someone. I cut my carbs down to about 100 (not terribly low, but I don't know what that is in net) when I was on low calories (1250), because when I prioritize food meat and cheese and savory stuff make it and most starchy and sweet stuff does not. This also means that I probably could gain weight on LCHF if I did it and didn't count calories and that I have pretty good self control with carbs, so is also why when I have more calories I end up happily eating more carbs without it screwing up my hunger or cravings or anything, maybe. But if someone says they'd rather be able to feel like they are eating whatever they want and can do that with low carb, I get it. If you made me choose between low carb and low fat I'd do low carb with no thought. I spent my childhood irritating my mother because I refused to eat sandwiches or cereal, after all. ;-) But lucky for me (since I do like potatoes and ice cream, and even some bread these days), I can do balanced macros or just play around with different ratios.0 -
I'm losing faith in CICO.
See, there's no actual studies to back up the commonly quoted "3500 calories = 1 pound of fat". Here, have a bunch of study results for low-fat versus low-carb diets. http://www.lifetime-weightloss.com/storage/Low-Carb vs Low-Fat Study Comparisons.pdf
I don't believe in it because it's wrong. Just like we turned out to be wrong about fat. Etc. Etc. Different types of calories have different effects, 100 calories of chips is different than 100 calories of lettuce. I have days where I eat a boiled egg and an orange and lose nothing, and then days where I gorge myself senseless on Indian buffet food (since I'm gluten-free, it's basically meat, veggies, and fat)... and then drop 5 pounds. WHAT? That doesn't fit calories-in-calories-out. 'Cause of stuff like metabolisms. I'm no dietitian. I'll tell people to "eat less, count your calories, you're probably eating more than you think"... because it's often true. But our bodies are weird and complex things that we don't necessarily understand everything about just yet.
Anyway, I lift weights and I don't eat a ton of carbs. I try to keep it under 80. I don't calorie count, I don't meticulously track... I put things in when I remember to. And I'm losing weight at a rate that satisfies me... 1-2 pounds a week. My body isn't the same as your body. What works for ME to lose weight... might not work for you. I found a study somewhere and I can't find it now... basically people with glucose resistance had higher success with low-carb, and people who weren't on the track to diabetes, had more success with low-fat diets in the study.
It'd be nice if weight loss was just math. But it isn't.
Your body doesn't auto-respond the next day to the previous day's input with the exception of something like sodium. If you're judging the effect of what you see on the scale to be something meaningful in terms of fat gain/loss vs. food intake on a day to day basis, I don't think you understand how this whole thing works at all.
0 -
I better have room for Nevada Pale Ale. . . .damn it, gif made me thirsty.cwolfman13 wrote: »
Please don't try and breakdown math as if I didn't understand how the numbers work. The point is if I was going to do keto and wanted to eat my ice cream I mentioned then I would have to go do a bunch of cardio in order to keep myself at 5%. So that would be a rule. If I don't do the cardio then no ice cream. If I eat the ice cream then the rule is I have to go do a bunch of ice cream every day to stay at the 5% mark.cwolfman13 wrote: »
Would I be able to eat a serving at night of Ben & Jerry's Half Baked ice cream?blktngldhrt wrote: »
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
too many rules...
Rules? Keep your macros at 5% net carb 20% protein and 75% fat..give or take a few percent for each (whatever works best)..drink enough fluids and keep your sodium up. Done.
How much cardio you wanna do? Anything is possible. The question is if it's worth it.
This doesn't even make sense...
Yup. So either I would not be able to eat the ice cream or as per here numbers I would have to do almost 700 calories worth of cardio. 2 rules, too many rules
If you were doing strict keto. If you were doing generic low carb, it would fit, but you'd probably have to eat less vegetables that day to offset it.
So what you're saying is more rules?
Nope, just basic math. 1 carb = 4 calories, 1 protein = 4 calories, 1 fat = 9 calories. For every 4 calories of carb you need 76 calories of protein and fat at 5/20/75. OTOH, if you don't do LC, and your macros are 50/25/25, you need 4 calories of protein and fat for every 4 calories of carb. The equation is the same, whether you do LC or LF or even balance. All that changes is the value of the variables. If you're carb loading, you need to make sure your fat and protein are restricted, or else you need to burn the extra calories you get from them. Nothing is different except the values in the equation.
If LC is "extra rules," that means LF is extra rules, carb loading is extra rules, everything is extra rules.
So once again, too many rules. If you refuse to acknowledge that because it validates that argument that NDJ said "too many rules" when he was told "there weren't" then that's fine with me. But don't sit here and debate something you know is true.
How is keeping your carbs at 5% more rules than keeping your fat at 20% or keeping your protein at 40%?
Then there are a lot of people who have no such rules...like me.
0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »
Gotcha. Shame, it started out pretty well! The pizza thread is way more fun. Though neither has anywhere near enough cat gifs.0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »
Would I be able to eat a serving at night of Ben & Jerry's Half Baked ice cream?blktngldhrt wrote: »
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
too many rules...
Rules? Keep your macros at 5% net carb 20% protein and 75% fat..give or take a few percent for each (whatever works best)..drink enough fluids and keep your sodium up. Done.
How much cardio you wanna do? Anything is possible. The question is if it's worth it.
This doesn't even make sense...
Yup. So either I would not be able to eat the ice cream or as per here numbers I would have to do almost 700 calories worth of cardio. 2 rules, too many rules
If you were doing strict keto. If you were doing generic low carb, it would fit, but you'd probably have to eat less vegetables that day to offset it.
So what you're saying is more rules?
I don't see it as rules. It's the same as anyone trying to get their macros within their limits..if they're watching macros.
I still have so much to eat today..and exercise to do. I just looked at my nutrition break down and noticed a quest bar will fit in nicely. I'm lifting some today and will want to hit my protein goal. Once I exercise I'll look again and choose something else to eat.. Probably heavy cream and almond butter with sweetener whipped up like a mousse because my fat macro is lowish. It's just fitting food into my macros.0 -
There are many examples where CICO doesn't turn up in the form "eat 500 cals/day less and lose 1 lb/week". Not specifically low carb either.
Kevin D Hall is a high priest of CICO maths but his recent poster on reducing fat vs reduces carbs appears to have a large hole in it - having taken out 800 cals of carbs from the low carb arm the subjects increased their oxidation of fat by ~400 cals from reserves with a small reduction in TDEE. Where did the other energy come from ?
If CICO is primary, why do MFP forums chastise overweight people for "eating too little" ?
My personal view is that a steady state mass and energy balance will hold true if done properly, but it's a post-hoc accounting exercise. You can't set or control a deficit, you can eat less or different food and do more or different activities and see how your body responds.
You're seriously asking that? People need calories to maintain basic functioning. I'm not sure that 1200 is the lowest, I think 1000 is probably okay for people who are very short, but I'll stay with the site guidelines.
0 -
Please don't try and breakdown math as if I didn't understand how the numbers work. The point is if I was going to do keto and wanted to eat my ice cream I mentioned then I would have to go do a bunch of cardio in order to keep myself at 5%. So that would be a rule. If I don't do the cardio then no ice cream. If I eat the ice cream then the rule is I have to go do a bunch of ice cream every day to stay at the 5% mark.cwolfman13 wrote: »
Would I be able to eat a serving at night of Ben & Jerry's Half Baked ice cream?blktngldhrt wrote: »
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
too many rules...
Rules? Keep your macros at 5% net carb 20% protein and 75% fat..give or take a few percent for each (whatever works best)..drink enough fluids and keep your sodium up. Done.
How much cardio you wanna do? Anything is possible. The question is if it's worth it.
This doesn't even make sense...
Yup. So either I would not be able to eat the ice cream or as per here numbers I would have to do almost 700 calories worth of cardio. 2 rules, too many rules
If you were doing strict keto. If you were doing generic low carb, it would fit, but you'd probably have to eat less vegetables that day to offset it.
So what you're saying is more rules?
Nope, just basic math. 1 carb = 4 calories, 1 protein = 4 calories, 1 fat = 9 calories. For every 4 calories of carb you need 76 calories of protein and fat at 5/20/75. OTOH, if you don't do LC, and your macros are 50/25/25, you need 4 calories of protein and fat for every 4 calories of carb. The equation is the same, whether you do LC or LF or even balance. All that changes is the value of the variables. If you're carb loading, you need to make sure your fat and protein are restricted, or else you need to burn the extra calories you get from them. Nothing is different except the values in the equation.
If LC is "extra rules," that means LF is extra rules, carb loading is extra rules, everything is extra rules.
So once again, too many rules. If you refuse to acknowledge that because it validates that argument that NDJ said "too many rules" when he was told "there weren't" then that's fine with me. But don't sit here and debate something you know is true.
I guess it's not really rules for people who can't eat the stuff you would have trouble fitting in anyway. 0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »You're seriously asking that? People need calories to maintain basic functioning
like the 250,000 hanging round their belly for example.
I wasn't specifically referring to minimum intake, which should be about nutrition and not energy, but the general "you aren't eating enough to lose weight" opinion that comes out when someone eating say 1400 calories and exercising says they don't lose weight.
It's like a deficit of 500 is good, 1000 might be OK, but 1100 and you lose no weight.
0 -
RockstarWilson wrote: »I don't even know where to begin...
The process of converting protein to glucose through gluconeogensis is not thermodynamically favorable. What this means, it just takes more energy to convert specific amino acids to glucose. I see data that suggests your metabolic rate raises on a ketogenic based diet. This was done on people in a calorimeter, with a tighly controlled diet.
So you can sit there eat 2000 calories of a carb based diet with no results due to your TDEE being 2000. Switch over to a low carb diet and your metabolism can increase above 2000. You can sit there eating 2000 calories of a protein based diet and lose weight. Then you come to the conclusion, "i am eating the same as before."
Someone said something about fat and satiety. That theory was a long time ago, I would assume in the late 1990's. Fat supposedly triggers CCK(Cholecystokinin) which makes you feel fuller. But we also have to keep in mind if that's even true, fat is still double the calories.
There is also some people talking about eating a lot of fat such as in keto, the fat comes out the other end. I mean we all heard of floaters... so Idk. It's a possibility.
I'm going to focus on the bold part since I've never seen the data you suggest in the first paragraph.
I don't understand what you mean that fat is double the calories, as in what that means to low carb diets? Low carb dieters don't take the 100g of carbs they would eat otherwise and go and eat 100g of fat instead because they cut those 100g out. I guess I'm confused on what that line meant.
1g of carbs = 4 calories
1g of fat = 9 calories
I understand that. I'm just not sure what the poster meant by that line. That since a gram of fat is double the calories that is why people claim to feel more full, that there are more calories per gram? Just not sure. Either way, I think that feeling full is a big plus for people that eat LCHF.
I feel full and don't eat LCHF.....not sure why LCHFers think they are the only ones to feel full
The difference is that the low carbers who eat high fat will feel full (synonymous with not feeling hungry or weak from hunger) not for 6-8 hours, but from 8-16 hours or longer. I can eat dinner at 8pm, go to bed, wake up at 6am, have 200 calories of heavy whipping cream, and I am good til about 3 or 4 in the afternoon.
This is my eating pattern, and this is the methodology behind keto/lchf. If I have no desire to eat Anything, I have no overeating challenges. And its not an eating disorder...I eat like a slob at night.
What are you trying to say here?
I can't feel full because I don't wait 8-16 hours between meals?
No, what I mean is that I see tons of threads about how people have reached their calorie allowance by 3 or 4 pm, with 5 or 6 hours to go and come on the threads looking for advice. I dont have this issue. Most days, I dont have the opportunity to overeat. I am not saying that anyone who has carbs doesnt feel full. You said that. I am just saying that I can operate all day on just a few hundred calories of fat in the morning, whereas -most- people will have to eat something to sustain. That is all I am getting at.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »nicsflyingcircus wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »
Would I be able to eat a serving at night of Ben & Jerry's Half Baked ice cream?blktngldhrt wrote: »
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
too many rules...
Rules? Keep your macros at 5% net carb 20% protein and 75% fat..give or take a few percent for each (whatever works best)..drink enough fluids and keep your sodium up. Done.
How much cardio you wanna do? Anything is possible. The question is if it's worth it.
This doesn't even make sense...
Why?
Because he asked if he could have half baked ice cream..which is 32g of net carbs. In order to fit it into the keto macros he would need to have a large number of calories to work with in order to get the desired amount of ice cream and stay within the 5%. Exercise increases the number of calories one can eat..this increasing the number
of carbs.
For example, I ate 1824 calories last Thursday and my carbs were 30g net or 9%. I would have easily been able to skip the beer and jerky and have a half serving of the ice cream that day. Some people can be in ketosis at 9% carb. I, personally like 4-5% better for my blood glucose.
Because in my crazy world of just eating a well balanced and nutritious diet, I don't need to do *kitten* loads of cardio just to have a little ice cream for desert. But hey...I live in crazy land over here....
Everything you're talking about sounds like cruel and unusual punishment...I get why you do it...you have a pretty legit reason medically...I don't see how this would be appealing at all to anyone who didn't need to do it.
I have to say- I completely agree with @cwolfman13 , I do it because like you said to her- I have a legit medical reason for doing it- but can't see how it would be appealing to someone without a medical reason
It's appealing to me because I feel more satiated on the same calories doing LCHF than I did doing solely calorie counting with more "balanced" macros. Plus, I prefer salt/savory/meaty to sweet and starchy, so it works -for me-. I am not a high performance athlete, though I am making efforts on the "move more" part of the deal.
I do not preach about it, nor in fact truly discuss it much outside the keto boards because it always turns into "eat what you want and make it fit" and what people don't seem to get is that is what I am doing. I just don't happen to care to make bread/pasta/potatoes/sweets/etc... fit... right now.
*Disclaimer: I lost 80lbs straight calorie counting before switching to LCHF and another 60 since then. In both cases I am counting calories, I just feel better/fuller/happier what have you, in the second case*
Cool- thanks. I genuinely was interested and really couldn't understand why someone would do it without a medical issue- but your explanation makes sense. I think I may follow your rule about not discussing it outside the PCOS or low carber boards cause you are right.....
For what it's worth, nic's reasoning makes total sense to me and I never get why people have such trouble understanding why LCHF might appeal to someone. I cut my carbs down to about 100 (not terribly low, but I don't know what that is in net) when I was on low calories (1250), because when I prioritize food meat and cheese and savory stuff make it and most starchy and sweet stuff does not. This also means that I probably could gain weight on LCHF if I did it and didn't count calories and that I have pretty good self control with carbs, so is also why when I have more calories I end up happily eating more carbs without it screwing up my hunger or cravings or anything, maybe. But if someone says they'd rather be able to feel like they are eating whatever they want and can do that with low carb, I get it. If you made me choose between low carb and low fat I'd do low carb with no thought. I spent my childhood irritating my mother because I refused to eat sandwiches or cereal, after all. ;-) But lucky for me (since I do like potatoes and ice cream, and even some bread these days), I can do balanced macros or just play around with different ratios.
THIS!!! A Million times this!!! I'd rather eat the savory stuff than the sweet Mind you I'd rather eat all the food, but if I have to figure something out, I'd lose the bread. 0
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