Too "clean" - when poor choices in fad diets do more harm than good ...
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EvgeniZyntx
Posts: 24,208 Member
We are constantly bombarded by news and info on how our diets might be poor, dangerous and evil - bad fats, evil sugar, cancerous processing, poison nitrates, deadly diary, etc. There is a lot of woo out there to tell us that a diet of pure spring water and elimination of lots of basic food stuff will cure warts, cancer and leave us healthy and bright eyed until we are 120 years old. It's mostly crap.
Sure, some research does show that certain diets are incredibly important to resolving certain disease states. Personally, twenty years ago, I watched a professor of mine bleed out almost die due to immunology-mediated medical issues caused by dietary incompatibilities. (The irony was that this occurred while we were working on reducing immunological response of certain biomaterials.) A specific elimination diet brought him back to health.
What to believe?
Mix a little truth and a lot of fear and fad and the elimination diet that a lot of people might follow might cause more issues than solve them.
So, if you are dropping diary, or meat, or processed food ask yourself if your decision is based on a vague sense of food fear or if you really are getting benefits. Challenge yourself to know if what you are doing isn't causing other problems.
This thread is about that - misconceptions in healthy eating that have disastrous results.
First off - Bok Choy Lady Case Study
From http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc0911005
Is that raw vegan diet a good idea?
Sure, some research does show that certain diets are incredibly important to resolving certain disease states. Personally, twenty years ago, I watched a professor of mine bleed out almost die due to immunology-mediated medical issues caused by dietary incompatibilities. (The irony was that this occurred while we were working on reducing immunological response of certain biomaterials.) A specific elimination diet brought him back to health.
What to believe?
Mix a little truth and a lot of fear and fad and the elimination diet that a lot of people might follow might cause more issues than solve them.
So, if you are dropping diary, or meat, or processed food ask yourself if your decision is based on a vague sense of food fear or if you really are getting benefits. Challenge yourself to know if what you are doing isn't causing other problems.
This thread is about that - misconceptions in healthy eating that have disastrous results.
First off - Bok Choy Lady Case Study
To the Editor: An 88-year-old Chinese woman was brought to the emergency department by her family, who reported that she had been lethargic and unable to walk or swallow for 3 days. She had been eating an estimated 1.0 to 1.5 kg of raw bok choy daily for several months in the belief that it would help control her diabetes. She had no previous history of thyroid disease.
On examination the patient was lethargic. The temperature was 36.1°C, the pulse 58 beats per minute, blood pressure 181/89 mm Hg, and the respiratory rate 22 breaths per minute. A pulse oximetry reading was 92%. She had peri- orbital edema and macroglossia, and her thyroid was not palpable; she also had pitting edema in her lower legs. Her skin was dry and her hair was coarse; a neurologic examination revealed clonus and hyperreflexia in the right leg due to a previous stroke. The remainder of her exami- nation was normal.
Laboratory testing was significant for serum levels of sodium (118 mmol per liter), thyrotropin (74.4 mIU per liter; 0.65 mIU per liter 4 months earlier; normal range, 0.4 to 4.0 mIU per liter), free thyroxine (undetectable; normal range, 0.7 to 2.2 ng per deciliter), and thyroid peroxidase antibodies (13 IU per milliliter; normal range, <20 IU per milliliter). The patient was intubat- ed for hypoxemic and hypercarbic respiratory failure and admitted to the intensive care unit with a diagnosis of severe hypothyroidism with myxedema coma. She was treated with intrave- nous methylprednisolone and levothyroxine and was eventually discharged to a skilled nursing facility.
Brassica rapa chinensis, otherwise known as bok choy or Chinese white cabbage, contains glu- cosinolates, a group of compounds that occur widely in the genus. Some of the breakdown products of glucosinolates, such as thiocyanates, nitriles, and oxazolidines, have been implicated for their inhibitory effects on the thyroid. Stud- ies in the 1920s were the first to note the devel- opment of hypertrophic goiters in rabbits that were mainly fed a diet of cabbage.1 Interest in the possible goitrogenic properties of foodstuffs led to the discovery of 1,5-vinyl-2-thiooxazoli- done in brassica seeds and in yellow turnips. The compound was termed a goitrin because it inhibited the uptake of iodine by the thyroid gland. In our patient, the problem was her consumption of considerable amounts of raw bok choy.
When eaten raw, brassica vegetables release the enzyme myrosinase, which accelerates the hydrolysis of glucosinolates; the cooking process largely deactivates the myrosinase in these vegetables. This case demonstrates the potential for nutritional factors to have a profound effect on health.
From http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc0911005
Is that raw vegan diet a good idea?
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Replies
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i think too much of ANYTHING is bad.
even water, in a high enough amount, can kill you.
everything in moderation
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Presumably, if the issue in the bok choy was that it was raw, the same could happen to someone who happens to include a lot of raw bok choy in an otherwise neutral diet. I've had someone question how much spinach I eat, because it contains a compound that can cause kidney stones in excessive doses. No idea what the line is for "excessive," but apparently I haven't found it yet.
Raw vegan done correctly can be a good idea. Raw vegan done without paying attention to basic nutrition is a bad idea. Same could be extrapolated to any WOE.0 -
The dosage makes the poison.
"Alle Dinge sind Gift und nichts ist ohne Gift, allein die Dosis macht es, dass ein Ding kein Gift ist."
- Paracelsus, a metric poop-load long time ago
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tagging to follow…
I think what matters is what is in the overall diet and dosage of certain foods. Oreo's by themselves are not the most nutritious food out there; however, when combined with a diet that is hitting calorie/macro/micro targets there is nothing bad about having them in said diet.0 -
I think that the larger idea, that you're BLINDLY going to fix yourself with food... without a medically monitored diet (like elimination diets for specific medical conditions) is what is the real problem.
Even more to the point... the idea that if you eat the RIGHT way, whatever that is, you'll ward off the boogeyman of illness... is flawed thinking.0 -
Raw vegan done correctly can be a good idea. Raw vegan done without paying attention to basic nutrition is a bad idea. Same could be extrapolated to any WOE.
I largely agree with you (raw is the one thing that I'm not convinced is ever a good idea or ever based on anything but weird ideas about cooking being unnatural and thus bad for us, but vegan of course is an ethical choice and can be done healthfully, and I expect raw vegan can too, through a bunch of work).
But it seems to me that having the nutritional knowledge to do these diets correctly requires that one moves past the "meat is bad and fattening" or "white foods are bad and fattening" or "fat is bad and fattening" type ideas that seem to drive many to choose the more extreme ways of eating.
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Presumably, if the issue in the bok choy was that it was raw, the same could happen to someone who happens to include a lot of raw bok choy in an otherwise neutral diet. I've had someone question how much spinach I eat, because it contains a compound that can cause kidney stones in excessive doses. No idea what the line is for "excessive," but apparently I haven't found it yet.
Raw vegan done correctly can be a good idea. Raw vegan done without paying attention to basic nutrition is a bad idea. Same could be extrapolated to any WOE.
As usual, context matters. For instance, for foods high in oxalate like spinach it is advised to eat them together with dairy, because calcium binds with oxalate and this way it is not absorbed by your body. So the same amount of spinach can cause kidney stones or not depending on other factors...
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Presumably, if the issue in the bok choy was that it was raw, the same could happen to someone who happens to include a lot of raw bok choy in an otherwise neutral diet. I've had someone question how much spinach I eat, because it contains a compound that can cause kidney stones in excessive doses. No idea what the line is for "excessive," but apparently I haven't found it yet.
Raw vegan done correctly can be a good idea. Raw vegan done without paying attention to basic nutrition is a bad idea. Same could be extrapolated to any WOE.
You might just want to cook it...J Agric Food Chem. 2005 Apr 20;53(8):3027-30.
Effect of different cooking methods on vegetable oxalate content.
Chai W1, Liebman M.
Author information
Abstract
Approximately 75% of all kidney stones are composed primarily of calcium oxalate, and hyperoxaluria is a primary risk factor for this disorder. Nine types of raw and cooked vegetables were analyzed for oxalate using an enzymatic method. There was a high proportion of water-soluble oxalate in most of the tested raw vegetables. Boiling markedly reduced soluble oxalate content by 30-87% and was more effective than steaming (5-53%) and baking (used only for potatoes, no oxalate loss). An assessment of the oxalate content of cooking water used for boiling and steaming revealed an approximately 100% recovery of oxalate losses. The losses of insoluble oxalate during cooking varied greatly, ranging from 0 to 74%. Because soluble sources of oxalate appear to be better absorbed than insoluble sources, employing cooking methods that significantly reduce soluble oxalate may be an effective strategy for decreasing oxaluria in individuals predisposed to the development of kidney stones.0 -
Indeed, eating 3LBS of bok choy a day, day after day isn't balanced. Nor any other food. Yup.0
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mamapeach910 wrote: »I think that the larger idea, that you're BLINDLY going to fix yourself with food... without a medically monitored diet (like elimination diets for specific medical conditions) is what is the real problem.
Even more to the point... the idea that if you eat the RIGHT way, whatever that is, you'll ward off the boogeyman of illness... is flawed thinking.
There are enough woo doctors out there willing to take you money and medically monitor bad idea diets. And I agree with you and the others that suggest that it's the thinking process at issue.
I'm not challenging raw, vegan, gluten-free, FODMAP or other diets per se. They each can be either useful or have preferential reasons related to lifestyle or moral stands. My issue is solely when taken to a point that they are counterproductive to health.
Someone that decides to eat healthy but eliminates iron sources, develops B12 deficiencies or decides to take vitamins leading to Vitamin A poisoning (see Sach's book on the subject) is the issue - excessive fear of food quality/medical/magical food properties leading to denial or restriction that actually causes issues.
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Indeed, eating 3LBS of bok choy a day, day after day isn't balanced. Nor any other food. Yup.
In this case it is a ridiculous amount of bok choy a day, but if you replace it with raw mustard greens - that is going to be the same issue with just 2-3 cups a day.0 -
Sure, and if you replace it with hot dogs...EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Indeed, eating 3LBS of bok choy a day, day after day isn't balanced. Nor any other food. Yup.
In this case it is a ridiculous amount of bok choy a day, but if you replace it with raw mustard greens - that is going to be the same issue with just 2-3 cups a day.
context and dosing as they say.
I wouldn't say the old woman was on a "fad diet", probably just scared and over did it. She ate the bok choy for MONTHS didn't she?
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
Sure, and if you replace it with hot dogs...EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Indeed, eating 3LBS of bok choy a day, day after day isn't balanced. Nor any other food. Yup.
In this case it is a ridiculous amount of bok choy a day, but if you replace it with raw mustard greens - that is going to be the same issue with just 2-3 cups a day.
context and dosing as they say.
WUT?
2-3 cups of mustard greens might seem easily reasonable to someone. Which is the context of the thread - some people do propose excessively restrictive diets on MFP.
How does the whole context/dosing discussion (of which I am a strong proponent) even fit when we are talking about those that over-restrict to an extreme? (For example, we have a few posters in the past that are anemic but avoid supplements and iron sources....)
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »I think that the larger idea, that you're BLINDLY going to fix yourself with food... without a medically monitored diet (like elimination diets for specific medical conditions) is what is the real problem.
Even more to the point... the idea that if you eat the RIGHT way, whatever that is, you'll ward off the boogeyman of illness... is flawed thinking.
There are enough woo doctors out there willing to take you money and medically monitor bad idea diets. And I agree with you and the others that suggest that it's the thinking process at issue.
I'm not challenging raw, vegan, gluten-free, FODMAP or other diets per se. They each can be either useful or have preferential reasons related to lifestyle or moral stands. My issue is solely when taken to a point that they are counterproductive to health.
Someone that decides to eat healthy but eliminates iron sources, develops B12 deficiencies or decides to take vitamins leading to Vitamin A poisoning (see Sach's book on the subject) is the issue - excessive fear of food quality/medical/magical food properties leading to denial or restriction that actually causes issues.
Ehm, the low-FODMAP diet is an elimination diet for people with IBS...
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Gianfranco_R wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »I think that the larger idea, that you're BLINDLY going to fix yourself with food... without a medically monitored diet (like elimination diets for specific medical conditions) is what is the real problem.
Even more to the point... the idea that if you eat the RIGHT way, whatever that is, you'll ward off the boogeyman of illness... is flawed thinking.
There are enough woo doctors out there willing to take you money and medically monitor bad idea diets. And I agree with you and the others that suggest that it's the thinking process at issue.
I'm not challenging raw, vegan, gluten-free, FODMAP or other diets per se. They each can be either useful or have preferential reasons related to lifestyle or moral stands. My issue is solely when taken to a point that they are counterproductive to health.
Someone that decides to eat healthy but eliminates iron sources, develops B12 deficiencies or decides to take vitamins leading to Vitamin A poisoning (see Sach's book on the subject) is the issue - excessive fear of food quality/medical/magical food properties leading to denial or restriction that actually causes issues.
Ehm, the low-FODMAP diet is an elimination diet for people with IBS...
Yes. And do you think only people with IBS try it?
There are a variety of alternative docs that suggest it as a solution to something or other - possibly with reasonable logic and there are people who attempt a FODMAP reduction diet for a variety of reasons ...
It should also include some thinking about long term effects if it is going to be your primary dietary mode for a longer period.
Again - no criticism about a dietary style - but the thinking that doesn't consider secondary effects of too little variety.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
Sure, and if you replace it with hot dogs...EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Indeed, eating 3LBS of bok choy a day, day after day isn't balanced. Nor any other food. Yup.
In this case it is a ridiculous amount of bok choy a day, but if you replace it with raw mustard greens - that is going to be the same issue with just 2-3 cups a day.
context and dosing as they say.
WUT?
2-3 cups of mustard greens might seem easily reasonable to someone. Which is the context of the thread - some people do propose excessively restrictive diets on MFP.
How does the whole context/dosing discussion (of which I am a strong proponent) even fit when we are talking about those that over-restrict to an extreme? (For example, we have a few posters in the past that are anemic but avoid supplements and iron sources....)
2-3 cups of mustard greens a day for months?
I like mustard greens, but blech!
The bok choy thing was ONE 80 something year old woman.
I'm sure we could find folks eating lots of ONE FOOD to an extreme. I'm betting most wouldn't be a raw vegetable. Like the man drinking 2-4 liters a day of Mt. Dew who got bromide poisoning. There. There's another out of context, single individual, doing something to an extreme. For a long time.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
Sure, and if you replace it with hot dogs...EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Indeed, eating 3LBS of bok choy a day, day after day isn't balanced. Nor any other food. Yup.
In this case it is a ridiculous amount of bok choy a day, but if you replace it with raw mustard greens - that is going to be the same issue with just 2-3 cups a day.
context and dosing as they say.
WUT?
2-3 cups of mustard greens might seem easily reasonable to someone. Which is the context of the thread - some people do propose excessively restrictive diets on MFP.
How does the whole context/dosing discussion (of which I am a strong proponent) even fit when we are talking about those that over-restrict to an extreme? (For example, we have a few posters in the past that are anemic but avoid supplements and iron sources....)
2-3 cups of mustard greens a day for months?
I like mustard greens, but blech!
The bok choy thing was ONE 80 something year old woman.
I'm sure we could find folks eating lots of ONE FOOD to an extreme. I'm betting most wouldn't be a raw vegetable. Like the man drinking 2-4 liters a day of Mt. Dew who got bromide poisoning. There. There's another out of context, single individual, doing something to an extreme. For a long time.
Why would it be out of context to warn people of the effects of over consumption of products with bromine? I believe that major soda manufacturers have decided recently that BVO should be removed from their formulation because of this risk, there have been a few cases.
If I were to say "avoid all cruciferous vegetables they cause hypothyroidism" then, yes, the argument around context/dosing would make sense (btw, if you are experiencing hypothyroidism, do discuss with your doc the effects of certain raw vegetables...)
But I'm not saying you shouldn't eat raw, or clean or sugar or donuts - I'm saying that the thinknig behind excessive restriction, especially when brought on by fear or food curism, may be ironically counter-productive.
The guy who is drinking 4 liters of Mt Dew or Red Devil isn't doing that from a misguided sense of getting healthy. I haven't seen that on the boards - I have seen people here go very restrictive for health reasons - it is fair warning to suggest that they think about how the major items in their diet are fulfilling (or not) their dietary needs or otherwise creating possible further risks.
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I doubt any raw vegan diets recommend eating that amount of bok choy, so I don't get the correlation.
Whatever diet you choose, balance is important for health.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I doubt any raw vegan diets recommend eating that amount of bok choy, so I don't get the correlation.
Whatever diet you choose, balance is important for health.
It's not a criticism specifically about raw vegan diet. For example, raw veganism, well researched and properly executed is going to have some thinking about addressing possible nutritional deficiencies, particularly for vitamins B12 and D, selenium, zinc, iron, etc.... it would be very difficult to obtain a sufficient amount of these from raw vegan diet without supplements. But it can certainly be done. It can be fine.
In some extreme diets, regularly practiced on the boards, balance can't be assured without some thinking and research around the resulting excesses and deficiencies.
Hair loss, amenorrhea, hypothyroidism, stones, etc... Are all regularly reported on the boards. Do you think that perhaps a few of these are caused by over-restriction (calories and nutrients?) based on some misguided sense of "healthy" eating.
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Consumable substances have varying thresholds before they turn harmful, which can be modified further by combining them with certain things like medications that lead to harmful interactions, heck, even things that are normally fine in larger quantities like potatoes, zucchini, cucumber..etc can turn poisonous under certain circumstances (like green growths on the potato spuds or a bitter zucchini due to low soil pH).
I don't see how we would pin this on "clean eating" though. That's too "strawmanified" for my taste. I have been consuming 1-3 pounds of raw tomatoes every single day for the past 30 years simply because I like them. It has nothing to do with clean eating and it does not affect my food balance. Had this been something other than tomatoes, I may have caused myself harm despite the "uncleanness" of my diet.
If the point is that just because a diet is clean or an approach is natural it does not make it inherently safe, then I totally agree. A lot of woo out there, some of which is harmless but unnecessary and some of which can be harmful.0
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