Going Plant Based Vegan
Replies
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how much total nutrition is in edible fungus? that's the only way I can think of a vegan not being plant based.0
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So. I'm still trying to understand what plant based vegan is.
The best way to describe it: A plant based vegan is the vegan community's version of a "clean eater." There is a focus on whole foods and it is usually low/very low fat. You can also see additional restrictions around certain grains, soy, and sugar. Plant-based eaters sometimes reject the ethical component of veganism (that is, they will accept animal exploitation for health and beauty products, clothing, animal entertainment, etc). They are often associated with juicing and sometimes raw food. They will frequently contrast themselves with what they call "junk food vegans," in a way that's very similar to how you see self-described "clean eaters" talk about those who practice moderation ("If you aren't plant-based, it means you're living on vegan hot dogs and french fries").
They tend to be associated with the programs of John McDougall (high carb, low fat), Joel Furhman (low fat), Engine2Diet, and 80/10/10 (high carb, low fat and protein). You will sometimes hear about Freelee, the "Banana Girl" in these conversations.
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janejellyroll wrote: »So. I'm still trying to understand what plant based vegan is.
The best way to describe it: A plant based vegan is the vegan community's version of a "clean eater." There is a focus on whole foods and it is usually low/very low fat. You can also see additional restrictions around certain grains, soy, and sugar. Plant-based eaters sometimes reject the ethical component of veganism (that is, they will accept animal exploitation for health and beauty products, clothing, animal entertainment, etc). They are often associated with juicing and sometimes raw food. They will frequently contrast themselves with what they call "junk food vegans," in a way that's very similar to how you see self-described "clean eaters" talk about those who practice moderation ("If you aren't plant-based, it means you're living on vegan hot dogs and french fries").
They tend to be associated with the programs of John McDougall (high carb, low fat), Joel Furhman (low fat), Engine2Diet, and 80/10/10 (high carb, low fat and protein). You will sometimes hear about Freelee, the "Banana Girl" in these conversations.
okay- that makes sense(ish).
I fully comprehend the desire to be vegan on the moral/ethical issues- I get that- and I actually have probably the most understanding/respect for someone's choice for that path- actually I can't see any reason to do so other then for those purposes- but I digress.
I figured it would probably exlude standard processed "non-meat" fair (i.e. exactly like the ketchup and french fries comment someone made) But yes- thank you that clear it up (again-ish)
I suspect that will be as clear as it ever will be to me LOL0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »So. I'm still trying to understand what plant based vegan is.
The best way to describe it: A plant based vegan is the vegan community's version of a "clean eater." There is a focus on whole foods and it is usually low/very low fat. You can also see additional restrictions around certain grains, soy, and sugar. Plant-based eaters sometimes reject the ethical component of veganism (that is, they will accept animal exploitation for health and beauty products, clothing, animal entertainment, etc). They are often associated with juicing and sometimes raw food. They will frequently contrast themselves with what they call "junk food vegans," in a way that's very similar to how you see self-described "clean eaters" talk about those who practice moderation ("If you aren't plant-based, it means you're living on vegan hot dogs and french fries").
They tend to be associated with the programs of John McDougall (high carb, low fat), Joel Furhman (low fat), Engine2Diet, and 80/10/10 (high carb, low fat and protein). You will sometimes hear about Freelee, the "Banana Girl" in these conversations.
okay- that makes sense(ish).
I fully comprehend the desire to be vegan on the moral/ethical issues- I get that- and I actually have probably the most understanding/respect for someone's choice for that path- actually I can't see any reason to do so other then for those purposes- but I digress.
I figured it would probably exlude standard processed "non-meat" fair (i.e. exactly like the ketchup and french fries comment someone made) But yes- thank you that clear it up (again-ish)
I suspect that will be as clear as it ever will be to me LOL
Given what we currently know about human nutrition, I don't think there is any reason to be vegan other than the ethical reasons. We know, from abundant evidence, that eating animal products is not incompatible with human health. If one is going to eliminate these, there must be another reason.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »So. I'm still trying to understand what plant based vegan is.
The best way to describe it: A plant based vegan is the vegan community's version of a "clean eater." There is a focus on whole foods and it is usually low/very low fat. You can also see additional restrictions around certain grains, soy, and sugar. Plant-based eaters sometimes reject the ethical component of veganism (that is, they will accept animal exploitation for health and beauty products, clothing, animal entertainment, etc). They are often associated with juicing and sometimes raw food. They will frequently contrast themselves with what they call "junk food vegans," in a way that's very similar to how you see self-described "clean eaters" talk about those who practice moderation ("If you aren't plant-based, it means you're living on vegan hot dogs and french fries").
They tend to be associated with the programs of John McDougall (high carb, low fat), Joel Furhman (low fat), Engine2Diet, and 80/10/10 (high carb, low fat and protein). You will sometimes hear about Freelee, the "Banana Girl" in these conversations.
Wow. Thank you for that concise and clear explanation. I came into the thread just curious about the title, thinking, "is there an animal based vegan lifestyle that I'm unaware of?".
I
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »So. I'm still trying to understand what plant based vegan is.
The best way to describe it: A plant based vegan is the vegan community's version of a "clean eater." There is a focus on whole foods and it is usually low/very low fat. You can also see additional restrictions around certain grains, soy, and sugar. Plant-based eaters sometimes reject the ethical component of veganism (that is, they will accept animal exploitation for health and beauty products, clothing, animal entertainment, etc). They are often associated with juicing and sometimes raw food. They will frequently contrast themselves with what they call "junk food vegans," in a way that's very similar to how you see self-described "clean eaters" talk about those who practice moderation ("If you aren't plant-based, it means you're living on vegan hot dogs and french fries").
They tend to be associated with the programs of John McDougall (high carb, low fat), Joel Furhman (low fat), Engine2Diet, and 80/10/10 (high carb, low fat and protein). You will sometimes hear about Freelee, the "Banana Girl" in these conversations.
okay- that makes sense(ish).
I fully comprehend the desire to be vegan on the moral/ethical issues- I get that- and I actually have probably the most understanding/respect for someone's choice for that path- actually I can't see any reason to do so other then for those purposes- but I digress.
I figured it would probably exlude standard processed "non-meat" fair (i.e. exactly like the ketchup and french fries comment someone made) But yes- thank you that clear it up (again-ish)
I suspect that will be as clear as it ever will be to me LOL
Given what we currently know about human nutrition, I don't think there is any reason to be vegan other than the ethical reasons. We know, from abundant evidence, that eating animal products is not incompatible with human health. If one is going to eliminate these, there must be another reason.
best vegan ever. let's keep you.
someone already said it- but the vegan community needs you. stick around.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »So. I'm still trying to understand what plant based vegan is.
The best way to describe it: A plant based vegan is the vegan community's version of a "clean eater." There is a focus on whole foods and it is usually low/very low fat. You can also see additional restrictions around certain grains, soy, and sugar. Plant-based eaters sometimes reject the ethical component of veganism (that is, they will accept animal exploitation for health and beauty products, clothing, animal entertainment, etc). They are often associated with juicing and sometimes raw food. They will frequently contrast themselves with what they call "junk food vegans," in a way that's very similar to how you see self-described "clean eaters" talk about those who practice moderation ("If you aren't plant-based, it means you're living on vegan hot dogs and french fries").
They tend to be associated with the programs of John McDougall (high carb, low fat), Joel Furhman (low fat), Engine2Diet, and 80/10/10 (high carb, low fat and protein). You will sometimes hear about Freelee, the "Banana Girl" in these conversations.
okay- that makes sense(ish).
I fully comprehend the desire to be vegan on the moral/ethical issues- I get that- and I actually have probably the most understanding/respect for someone's choice for that path- actually I can't see any reason to do so other then for those purposes- but I digress.
I figured it would probably exlude standard processed "non-meat" fair (i.e. exactly like the ketchup and french fries comment someone made) But yes- thank you that clear it up (again-ish)
I suspect that will be as clear as it ever will be to me LOL
Given what we currently know about human nutrition, I don't think there is any reason to be vegan other than the ethical reasons. We know, from abundant evidence, that eating animal products is not incompatible with human health. If one is going to eliminate these, there must be another reason.
best vegan ever. let's keep you.
someone already said it- but the vegan community needs you. stick around.
Cosigned. @janejellyroll for Vegan Of The Year! Stay tuned to the upcoming VOTY's to cast your ballot.
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janejellyroll wrote: »Given what we currently know about human nutrition, I don't think there is any reason to be vegan other than the ethical reasons. We know, from abundant evidence, that eating animal products is not incompatible with human health. If one is going to eliminate these, there must be another reason.
Vegan for 'Ethical' reasons (in my view) are those that avoid all animal products - food including beer (subjugates yeast) and honey (subjugates bees) , clothing, etc, and promote animal rights - at times to the detriment of their own species (human). While I understand that perspective, I disagree with the premise that it is the only reason to adopt that dietary outlook.
Health is also a valid reason for adopting a vegan diet, with the objective being the elimination of animal products. As Forks over Knives documented, and the work of Drs Ornish, Esselstyn Jr., McDougall, Kahn, Barnard, et al, have shown: adopting a plant based/vegan, low fat diet can reverse heart disease as well as prevent future heart disease - still the #1 cause of death in the United States.
CDC: Number of deaths for leading causes of death (2013):
Heart disease: 611,105 *
Cancer: 584,881 *
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 149,205
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 130,557
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,978 *
Alzheimer's disease: 84,767 *
Diabetes: 75,578 *
Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,979
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 47,112
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 41,149
*Diet plays a crucial role.0 -
Health is also a valid reason for adopting a vegan diet, with the objective being the elimination of animal products. As Forks over Knives documented, and the work of Drs Ornish, Esselstyn Jr., McDougall, Kahn, Barnard, et al, have shown: adopting a plant based/vegan, low fat diet can reverse heart disease as well as prevent future heart disease - still the #1 cause of death in the United States.
.
LOL wut?
vegan =/= healthy =/= low fat.
none of those things are equal.
all of them CAN be- and the can all be unhealthy and also very high in fats.
That doesn't even compute.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »So. I'm still trying to understand what plant based vegan is.
The best way to describe it: A plant based vegan is the vegan community's version of a "clean eater." There is a focus on whole foods and it is usually low/very low fat. You can also see additional restrictions around certain grains, soy, and sugar. Plant-based eaters sometimes reject the ethical component of veganism (that is, they will accept animal exploitation for health and beauty products, clothing, animal entertainment, etc). They are often associated with juicing and sometimes raw food. They will frequently contrast themselves with what they call "junk food vegans," in a way that's very similar to how you see self-described "clean eaters" talk about those who practice moderation ("If you aren't plant-based, it means you're living on vegan hot dogs and french fries").
They tend to be associated with the programs of John McDougall (high carb, low fat), Joel Furhman (low fat), Engine2Diet, and 80/10/10 (high carb, low fat and protein). You will sometimes hear about Freelee, the "Banana Girl" in these conversations.
Wow. Thank you for that concise and clear explanation. I came into the thread just curious about the title, thinking, "is there an animal based vegan lifestyle that I'm unaware of?".
I
You're welcome. The terminology can be confusing to those who haven't encountered it before.
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »So. I'm still trying to understand what plant based vegan is.
The best way to describe it: A plant based vegan is the vegan community's version of a "clean eater." There is a focus on whole foods and it is usually low/very low fat. You can also see additional restrictions around certain grains, soy, and sugar. Plant-based eaters sometimes reject the ethical component of veganism (that is, they will accept animal exploitation for health and beauty products, clothing, animal entertainment, etc). They are often associated with juicing and sometimes raw food. They will frequently contrast themselves with what they call "junk food vegans," in a way that's very similar to how you see self-described "clean eaters" talk about those who practice moderation ("If you aren't plant-based, it means you're living on vegan hot dogs and french fries").
They tend to be associated with the programs of John McDougall (high carb, low fat), Joel Furhman (low fat), Engine2Diet, and 80/10/10 (high carb, low fat and protein). You will sometimes hear about Freelee, the "Banana Girl" in these conversations.
okay- that makes sense(ish).
I fully comprehend the desire to be vegan on the moral/ethical issues- I get that- and I actually have probably the most understanding/respect for someone's choice for that path- actually I can't see any reason to do so other then for those purposes- but I digress.
I figured it would probably exlude standard processed "non-meat" fair (i.e. exactly like the ketchup and french fries comment someone made) But yes- thank you that clear it up (again-ish)
I suspect that will be as clear as it ever will be to me LOL
Given what we currently know about human nutrition, I don't think there is any reason to be vegan other than the ethical reasons. We know, from abundant evidence, that eating animal products is not incompatible with human health. If one is going to eliminate these, there must be another reason.
best vegan ever. let's keep you.
someone already said it- but the vegan community needs you. stick around.
Cosigned. @janejellyroll for Vegan Of The Year! Stay tuned to the upcoming VOTY's to cast your ballot.
Wow, thanks everyone. There are many people like me -- we're just not always as vocal as the plant-based people.0 -
If vegetarians eat vegetables, and pescetarians eat fish, what do humanitarians eat?!
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janejellyroll wrote: »Given what we currently know about human nutrition, I don't think there is any reason to be vegan other than the ethical reasons. We know, from abundant evidence, that eating animal products is not incompatible with human health. If one is going to eliminate these, there must be another reason.
Vegan for 'Ethical' reasons (in my view) are those that avoid all animal products - food including beer (subjugates yeast) and honey (subjugates bees) , clothing, etc, and promote animal rights - at times to the detriment of their own species (human). While I understand that perspective, I disagree with the premise that it is the only reason to adopt that dietary outlook.
Health is also a valid reason for adopting a vegan diet, with the objective being the elimination of animal products. As Forks over Knives documented, and the work of Drs Ornish, Esselstyn Jr., McDougall, Kahn, Barnard, et al, have shown: adopting a plant based/vegan, low fat diet can reverse heart disease as well as prevent future heart disease - still the #1 cause of death in the United States.
CDC: Number of deaths for leading causes of death (2013):
Heart disease: 611,105 *
Cancer: 584,881 *
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 149,205
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 130,557
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,978 *
Alzheimer's disease: 84,767 *
Diabetes: 75,578 *
Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,979
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 47,112
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 41,149
*Diet plays a crucial role.
Yeast is not an animal. Ethical vegans do not avoid yeast.
In order for health to be a reason to adopt veganism, we would need evidence that animal products are harmful at ANY dose. I am not aware of any evidence showing this. I don't have a doubt that some people have experienced improvement in their heart disease after adopting a plant based diet -- but there is no evidence that their symptoms wouldn't have improved if they had made other dietary changes but still included some amount of animal products in their diet. Keep in mind that your typical "plant based" diet also includes other changes that have been associated with improved heart health, changes that go beyond veganism. There is also abundant evidence that people can lead long and healthful lives while consuming animal products.
Veganism is the solution to a particular ethical problem involving animal exploitation. I am not sure why people are trying to co-opt the word while rejecting the ethical component, but avoiding eating animal products while continuing to exploit animals for pleasure and/or convenience isn't veganism.0 -
I'm vegan- feel free to add me! 0
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Oh also I can give you advice or you can spy on my diary but I won't bother here because people feel veeeerrrry strongly about things in these forums and I'm not in the mood for any debates. I'm healthy and happy and living what I believe is right. I don't need to justify that to anyone and neither do you.
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neanderthin wrote: »Stick around Janejellyroll, your vegan community needs you.
Truth.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »claire_ouellette wrote: »
I think you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who is more pro-vegan than I am. I have been vegan for nine years and I think that it is possible to thrive as a vegan. That said, it is not a cure for ED. Layering food restrictions (which, even from a positive POV, veganism is) on top of an ED can be dangerous.
There are some inspirational stories of vegans who have overcome EDs. If you are interested in reading more, I would suggest the "Green Recovery" series of posts on Gena Hamshaw's "Choosing Raw" blog (she doesn't advocate for a fully raw diet, just suggests ways to add more raw foods to the diet). There are also lots of people who found adding veganism to an ED made their physical and emotional health worse. My concern is that you would complicate your recovery and potentially set yourself back.
Focus on getting better. Veganism will be here when you're ready.
^^^That is great advice.0 -
I have recently decided to head in the direction of a vegan lifestyle. Mostly for health reasons, partly for ethical reasons.
Personally, I don't have a problem with eating chickens or eggs, for example, but I refuse to purchase industrially raised chickens / eggs. I think farm animals should be humanely treated to the extent possible (given their ultimate fate) and I think it's irresponsible to raise and eat as much meat as we are, given the fragility of our planet. My views are evolving, so maybe I'll become more vegan in time. But I'm digressing.
I intend to eat grass-fed beef about once a week, and free-range organic chicken once or twice a week. I'll eat some fish, and eggs a few times a week. I eat chickpeas / hummus. I can't eat soy. I can have 2 servings of dairy products per day (yogurt, skim milk or low fat cheese). What other protein options do I have? I saw the recommendation for lentils (above), and I like that suggestion. I'm supposed to be eating 4-5 servings of protein a day (not counting the dairy) and I'm having trouble hitting that target. Any vegan suggestions (esp. low fat) would be appreciated!0 -
KarinaGeneva wrote: »I have recently decided to head in the direction of a vegan lifestyle. Mostly for health reasons, partly for ethical reasons.
Personally, I don't have a problem with eating chickens or eggs, for example, but I refuse to purchase industrially raised chickens / eggs. I think farm animals should be humanely treated to the extent possible (given their ultimate fate) and I think it's irresponsible to raise and eat as much meat as we are, given the fragility of our planet. My views are evolving, so maybe I'll become more vegan in time. But I'm digressing.
I intend to eat grass-fed beef about once a week, and free-range organic chicken once or twice a week. I'll eat some fish, and eggs a few times a week. I eat chickpeas / hummus. I can't eat soy. I can have 2 servings of dairy products per day (yogurt, skim milk or low fat cheese). What other protein options do I have? I saw the recommendation for lentils (above), and I like that suggestion. I'm supposed to be eating 4-5 servings of protein a day (not counting the dairy) and I'm having trouble hitting that target. Any vegan suggestions (esp. low fat) would be appreciated!
That's not vegan.
like.
at all.0 -
KarinaGeneva wrote: »I have recently decided to head in the direction of a vegan lifestyle. Mostly for health reasons, partly for ethical reasons.
Personally, I don't have a problem with eating chickens or eggs, for example, but I refuse to purchase industrially raised chickens / eggs. I think farm animals should be humanely treated to the extent possible (given their ultimate fate) and I think it's irresponsible to raise and eat as much meat as we are, given the fragility of our planet. My views are evolving, so maybe I'll become more vegan in time. But I'm digressing.
I intend to eat grass-fed beef about once a week, and free-range organic chicken once or twice a week. I'll eat some fish, and eggs a few times a week. I eat chickpeas / hummus. I can't eat soy. I can have 2 servings of dairy products per day (yogurt, skim milk or low fat cheese). What other protein options do I have? I saw the recommendation for lentils (above), and I like that suggestion. I'm supposed to be eating 4-5 servings of protein a day (not counting the dairy) and I'm having trouble hitting that target. Any vegan suggestions (esp. low fat) would be appreciated!
That's not vegan.
like.
at all.
Lol. No it is not.0 -
KarinaGeneva wrote: »I have recently decided to head in the direction of a vegan lifestyle. Mostly for health reasons, partly for ethical reasons.
Personally, I don't have a problem with eating chickens or eggs, for example, but I refuse to purchase industrially raised chickens / eggs. I think farm animals should be humanely treated to the extent possible (given their ultimate fate) and I think it's irresponsible to raise and eat as much meat as we are, given the fragility of our planet. My views are evolving, so maybe I'll become more vegan in time. But I'm digressing.
I intend to eat grass-fed beef about once a week, and free-range organic chicken once or twice a week. I'll eat some fish, and eggs a few times a week. I eat chickpeas / hummus. I can't eat soy. I can have 2 servings of dairy products per day (yogurt, skim milk or low fat cheese). What other protein options do I have? I saw the recommendation for lentils (above), and I like that suggestion. I'm supposed to be eating 4-5 servings of protein a day (not counting the dairy) and I'm having trouble hitting that target. Any vegan suggestions (esp. low fat) would be appreciated!
Seitan is a great source of protein and, if you make it yourself, the amount of fat included is completely under your control. Beans (other than lentils) are also a good choice for protein. Other good sources include green peas and quinoa. There are also so many great plant-based protein powders available. I like the Vega brand -- I don't think it contains any fat.0 -
Sorry @JoRocka and @melimomTARDIS … didn't mean any offense to vegans by implying that I've gone vegan when I haven't. I said heading in that direction, but it's more accurate to say I'm heading in the direction of vegetarian … away from eating meat multiple times a day. In any case, I apologize if I offended anyone.
@janejellyroll, thanks for the serious reply. I do like beans and quinoi and will be sure to add more. I don't even know what seitan is, but I will look into it. Thanks again!0 -
So someone in this thread doesn't even science....0
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KarinaGeneva wrote: »I have recently decided to head in the direction of a vegan lifestyle. Mostly for health reasons, partly for ethical reasons.
Personally, I don't have a problem with eating chickens or eggs, for example, but I refuse to purchase industrially raised chickens / eggs. I think farm animals should be humanely treated to the extent possible (given their ultimate fate) and I think it's irresponsible to raise and eat as much meat as we are, given the fragility of our planet. My views are evolving, so maybe I'll become more vegan in time. But I'm digressing.
I intend to eat grass-fed beef about once a week, and free-range organic chicken once or twice a week. I'll eat some fish, and eggs a few times a week. I eat chickpeas / hummus. I can't eat soy. I can have 2 servings of dairy products per day (yogurt, skim milk or low fat cheese). What other protein options do I have? I saw the recommendation for lentils (above), and I like that suggestion. I'm supposed to be eating 4-5 servings of protein a day (not counting the dairy) and I'm having trouble hitting that target. Any vegan suggestions (esp. low fat) would be appreciated!
If you want a label, 'ethical omnivore' would fit the bill more so than vegan.
p.s. those 'free range' labels on your eggs mean basically nothing. 0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Given what we currently know about human nutrition, I don't think there is any reason to be vegan other than the ethical reasons. We know, from abundant evidence, that eating animal products is not incompatible with human health. If one is going to eliminate these, there must be another reason.
Vegan for 'Ethical' reasons (in my view) are those that avoid all animal products - food including beer (subjugates yeast) and honey (subjugates bees) , clothing, etc, and promote animal rights - at times to the detriment of their own species (human). While I understand that perspective, I disagree with the premise that it is the only reason to adopt that dietary outlook.
Health is also a valid reason for adopting a vegan diet, with the objective being the elimination of animal products. As Forks over Knives documented, and the work of Drs Ornish, Esselstyn Jr., McDougall, Kahn, Barnard, et al, have shown: adopting a plant based/vegan, low fat diet can reverse heart disease as well as prevent future heart disease - still the #1 cause of death in the United States.
CDC: Number of deaths for leading causes of death (2013):
Heart disease: 611,105 *
Cancer: 584,881 *
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 149,205
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 130,557
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,978 *
Alzheimer's disease: 84,767 *
Diabetes: 75,578 *
Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,979
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 47,112
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 41,149
*Diet plays a crucial role.
Yeast is not an animal. Ethical vegans do not avoid yeast.
In order for health to be a reason to adopt veganism, we would need evidence that animal products are harmful at ANY dose. I am not aware of any evidence showing this. I don't have a doubt that some people have experienced improvement in their heart disease after adopting a plant based diet -- but there is no evidence that their symptoms wouldn't have improved if they had made other dietary changes but still included some amount of animal products in their diet. Keep in mind that your typical "plant based" diet also includes other changes that have been associated with improved heart health, changes that go beyond veganism. There is also abundant evidence that people can lead long and healthful lives while consuming animal products.
Veganism is the solution to a particular ethical problem involving animal exploitation. I am not sure why people are trying to co-opt the word while rejecting the ethical component, but avoiding eating animal products while continuing to exploit animals for pleasure and/or convenience isn't veganism.
OMG you are awesome! yay for common sense! 0
This discussion has been closed.
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