Explain importance of Ketosis in CICO
Coolhandkid
Posts: 84 Member
It seems controlling carbs to the degree that an individual maintains ketosis has been a successful way for many to lose weight. I have seen several threads re: "Atkins" and "South Beach" diets being successful because carbs are less satiating than fat and protein. My curiosity is how ketosis is even relevant if we think even these diets still depend on CICO.
Thanks!
Thanks!
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Replies
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Low carb reduces hunger with a focus on more satiating foods, especially protein.
If you go even lower, you make ketones, which will depress insulin, depress ghrelin, and perhaps make you more sensitive to leptin. I.e., you're even less hungry.
So, less hunger = fewer calories consumed = CICO.
There are a couple of other benefits to ketosis as well in terms of the increased metabolic costs of making ketones and gluconeogenesis, but those are just bonus points.
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It seems controlling carbs to the degree that an individual maintains ketosis has been a successful way for many to lose weight. I have seen several threads re: "Atkins" and "South Beach" diets being successful because carbs are less satiating than fat and protein. My curiosity is how ketosis is even relevant if we think even these diets still depend on CICO.
Thanks!
South Beach doesn't involve ketosis, it's a GI-based plan.0 -
^^^^^ This, neither does atkins. Also just because some Fad diet (yes I put Keto in that bracket) helps you lose weight does not automatically mean it's 'healthy'janejellyroll wrote: »It seems controlling carbs to the degree that an individual maintains ketosis has been a successful way for many to lose weight. I have seen several threads re: "Atkins" and "South Beach" diets being successful because carbs are less satiating than fat and protein. My curiosity is how ketosis is even relevant if we think even these diets still depend on CICO.
Thanks!
South Beach doesn't involve ketosis, it's a GI-based plan.
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carbs are less satiating than fat
This gets thrown out a lot on this site as if it's a universal truth. It is not. While many people do find that fats are satiating, many others either do not find them satisfying or only find them satisfying when eaten with carbs and protein.
"Volume" eaters who like the feeling of a bulky meal will do better with FIBER for satiety, (And, yes, fiber is a type of carbohydrate) and fast eaters may find themselves feeling deprived when a fatty plate is empty so very quickly (fat has more calories per gram than other macros)
There are several medical conditions which respond well to a low carb or keto diet. However, for weight loss alone? Low carb isn't needed. Some people find it suits their preferences, but otherwise it's totally unnecessary.0 -
In terms of weight loss, there's not reason to think it is relevant. Your body does a bunch of stuff behind the scenes that we summarize as CICO. Ketosis is just one of those things. Whether your body is getting energy from ketone bodies or from glucose, 3500 calories is still the number of calories in a pound of fat.0
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FWIW, the "induction" phase of Atkins is ketogenic. Everybody makes some ketones (mostly at night during your "fast"), but if you consistently stay below 100g or so carbs, you'll need to make ketones to feed your brain.
Don't try it without reading up on it. As you make ketones, you lose some in your urine, and you'll lose sodium too. It takes a bit of a mindset change to start eating more sodium and more fat, so reading before you try it would be a good idea.0 -
HeySwoleSister wrote: »carbs are less satiating than fat
This gets thrown out a lot on this site as if it's a universal truth. It is not. While many people do find that fats are satiating, many others either do not find them satisfying or only find them satisfying when eaten with carbs and protein.
"Volume" eaters who like the feeling of a bulky meal will do better with FIBER for satiety, (And, yes, fiber is a type of carbohydrate) and fast eaters may find themselves feeling deprived when a fatty plate is empty so very quickly (fat has more calories per gram than other macros)
There are several medical conditions which respond well to a low carb or keto diet. However, for weight loss alone? Low carb isn't needed. Some people find it suits their preferences, but otherwise it's totally unnecessary.
This. I've been trying to figure out what makes me stay full longest for breakfast, and protein and fats don't do it for me. I have a carb heavy breakfast of pancakes with eggs, sausage, bacon, and fruit, then I have to force myself to eat lunch. Not too full, but just right for over 4 hours. Love dem carbs!
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janejellyroll wrote: »It seems controlling carbs to the degree that an individual maintains ketosis has been a successful way for many to lose weight. I have seen several threads re: "Atkins" and "South Beach" diets being successful because carbs are less satiating than fat and protein. My curiosity is how ketosis is even relevant if we think even these diets still depend on CICO.
Thanks!
South Beach doesn't involve ketosis, it's a GI-based plan.
I don't know which fad diets specify the necessity of ketosis as I don't believe in fad diets. However, the low carb thing seems to be sticking longer than any other "fad". I have a family history of glucose issues and have been eating fewer carbs for a few years now. I'm just trying to figure out if there is value in taking the next step and getting rid of them altogether (in regards to weight loss).0 -
Don't worry about the "fad" label. Ketosis is a normal physiological state that we evolved to deal with periods of low carb availability. Think of your ancestors in the winter months, for example. Something that evolved over a LONG period of time can't be a fad. 0
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janejellyroll wrote: »It seems controlling carbs to the degree that an individual maintains ketosis has been a successful way for many to lose weight. I have seen several threads re: "Atkins" and "South Beach" diets being successful because carbs are less satiating than fat and protein. My curiosity is how ketosis is even relevant if we think even these diets still depend on CICO.
Thanks!
South Beach doesn't involve ketosis, it's a GI-based plan.
I don't know which fad diets specify the necessity of ketosis as I don't believe in fad diets. However, the low carb thing seems to be sticking longer than any other "fad". I have a family history of glucose issues and have been eating fewer carbs for a few years now. I'm just trying to figure out if there is value in taking the next step and getting rid of them altogether (in regards to weight loss).
Getting rid of carbohydrates all together would be very challenging.
And yes, it does matter that the fad diets you talk about don't involve ketosis because you are using them as a basis for thinking that there must be something to ketosis as a weight loss strategy. You can't say "Well, I am thinking about it because so many fad diets involve it" and then disregard the fact that they don't.
South Beach isn't even, technically, a low carb plan -- it's a GI-based plan.0 -
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Ketosis isn't important, necessary or crucial to CICO.
Ketosis is a metabolic state where most of the body's energy supply comes ketone in the blood in contrast to a state of glycolysis where blood glucose provides most of the energy.
FYI: During the evening when we are sleeping our bodies usually revert to ketosis. A low carb ketogenic diet encourages our bodies to remain in that state 24/7.
Those who use a low carb diet as they weight loss program use it because it often comes with diminished hunger pains and cravings. Aka...for many, myself included, it helps people maintain a deficit easier than other programs. It is still a CICO program though since a low carb ketosis diet will not work if you do not maintain a deficit.
Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for.
Do you have more energy when you are in ketosis? I find myself getting tired more than I would like.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »It seems controlling carbs to the degree that an individual maintains ketosis has been a successful way for many to lose weight. I have seen several threads re: "Atkins" and "South Beach" diets being successful because carbs are less satiating than fat and protein. My curiosity is how ketosis is even relevant if we think even these diets still depend on CICO.
Thanks!
South Beach doesn't involve ketosis, it's a GI-based plan.
I don't know which fad diets specify the necessity of ketosis as I don't believe in fad diets. However, the low carb thing seems to be sticking longer than any other "fad". I have a family history of glucose issues and have been eating fewer carbs for a few years now. I'm just trying to figure out if there is value in taking the next step and getting rid of them altogether (in regards to weight loss).
Keep in mind that low carb doesn't necessarily mean keto diet. There are a lot of low carb dieters that are not keto.
At any rate, it is irrelevant to losing weight...it's still CICO and any diet that works relies on the same general principle...a deficiency of energy. IMO, the reason low carb is so prevalent is that:
1) a lot of overweight people have developed, at minimum, some insulin issues and other metabolic issues for which restricting carbohydrates is beneficial;
2) It's an easy way for many people to control calorie intake without actually counting calories...many carbs are also high calorie...eliminate the carbs, eliminate the calories;
3) Many people associate carbs with "junk" foods, not so much things like fruit, oats, legumes, lentils and other whole grains, etc...reducing carbs essentially helps them "clean" up their diets and eliminates a lot of high calorie "junk" food. By default, many people who diet will naturally reduce carbohydrate intake by eliminating "bad" foods.
4) Carbohydrates are the least important of the three macro-nutrients. Dietary fat is highly essential to numerous bodily functions and study after study is illustrating just how bad the low fat/no fat diet craze was for our health. Equally, protein is very important as well. IMO carbohydrates are important, but people can function and perform just fine on less of them.
As far as keto goes, I don't know why anyone would subject themselves to that unless they absolutely had to for medical reasons...IMO, there really is no upside and by going that low on carbohydrates many may be missing on a lot of nutrients.
Most people who eat the SAD could definitely stand to moderate their carbohydrate intake, but low carbing isn't necessary in most cases...it's just a rather convenient way of providing a deficiency of energy.0 -
isulo_kura wrote: »
^^^^^ This, neither does atkins. Also just because some Fad diet (yes I put Keto in that bracket) helps you lose weight does not automatically mean it's 'healthy'janejellyroll wrote: »It seems controlling carbs to the degree that an individual maintains ketosis has been a successful way for many to lose weight. I have seen several threads re: "Atkins" and "South Beach" diets being successful because carbs are less satiating than fat and protein. My curiosity is how ketosis is even relevant if we think even these diets still depend on CICO.
Thanks!
South Beach doesn't involve ketosis, it's a GI-based plan.
It's been around and medically prescribed over 100 years, exactly what is your time frame for "fad"? But I'm sure you know better than a century of doctors, scientists and dieticians.
As for the OP, that's also the point of keto - it's for medical conditions. The fact that it also happens to work for some people who don't have any medical conditions (or in a lot of cases, have them, but aren't aware of them until after they become keto adapted) doesn't change its original purpose. If it works for you, great, if it doesn't, also great. It's not magic fairy dust that changes how weight loss works.
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Do you have more energy when you are in ketosis? I find myself getting tired more than I would like.
Getting enough sodium? Are you doing this on your own or with guidance? Read this first:
Art and Science of Low Carb
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cwolfman13 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »It seems controlling carbs to the degree that an individual maintains ketosis has been a successful way for many to lose weight. I have seen several threads re: "Atkins" and "South Beach" diets being successful because carbs are less satiating than fat and protein. My curiosity is how ketosis is even relevant if we think even these diets still depend on CICO.
Thanks!
South Beach doesn't involve ketosis, it's a GI-based plan.
I don't know which fad diets specify the necessity of ketosis as I don't believe in fad diets. However, the low carb thing seems to be sticking longer than any other "fad". I have a family history of glucose issues and have been eating fewer carbs for a few years now. I'm just trying to figure out if there is value in taking the next step and getting rid of them altogether (in regards to weight loss).
Keep in mind that low carb doesn't necessarily mean keto diet. There are a lot of low carb dieters that are not keto.
At any rate, it is irrelevant to losing weight...it's still CICO and any diet that works relies on the same general principle...a deficiency of energy. IMO, the reason low carb is so prevalent is that:
1) a lot of overweight people have developed, at minimum, some insulin issues and other metabolic issues for which restricting carbohydrates is beneficial;
2) It's an easy way for many people to control calorie intake without actually counting calories...many carbs are also high calorie...eliminate the carbs, eliminate the calories;
3) Many people associate carbs with "junk" foods, not so much things like fruit, oats, legumes, lentils and other whole grains, etc...reducing carbs essentially helps them "clean" up their diets and eliminates a lot of high calorie "junk" food. By default, many people who diet will naturally reduce carbohydrate intake by eliminating "bad" foods.
4) Carbohydrates are the least important of the three macro-nutrients. Dietary fat is highly essential to numerous bodily functions and study after study is illustrating just how bad the low fat/no fat diet craze was for our health. Equally, protein is very important as well. IMO carbohydrates are important, but people can function and perform just fine on less of them.
As far as keto goes, I don't know why anyone would subject themselves to that unless they absolutely had to for medical reasons...IMO, there really is no upside and by going that low on carbohydrates many may be missing on a lot of nutrients.
Most people who eat the SAD could definitely stand to moderate their carbohydrate intake, but low carbing isn't necessary in most cases...it's just a rather convenient way of providing a deficiency of energy.
Not really, it's more likely someone on the SAD is nutrient deficient, as well as dehydrated, than someone who is doing LC or keto correctly. If you want to include "incorrectly" you also have to acknowledge all the low fat, vegetarian, vegan, etc people who are also nutrient deficient because they do it wrong.0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »It seems controlling carbs to the degree that an individual maintains ketosis has been a successful way for many to lose weight. I have seen several threads re: "Atkins" and "South Beach" diets being successful because carbs are less satiating than fat and protein. My curiosity is how ketosis is even relevant if we think even these diets still depend on CICO.
Thanks!
South Beach doesn't involve ketosis, it's a GI-based plan.
I don't know which fad diets specify the necessity of ketosis as I don't believe in fad diets. However, the low carb thing seems to be sticking longer than any other "fad". I have a family history of glucose issues and have been eating fewer carbs for a few years now. I'm just trying to figure out if there is value in taking the next step and getting rid of them altogether (in regards to weight loss).
Keep in mind that low carb doesn't necessarily mean keto diet. There are a lot of low carb dieters that are not keto.
At any rate, it is irrelevant to losing weight...it's still CICO and any diet that works relies on the same general principle...a deficiency of energy. IMO, the reason low carb is so prevalent is that:
1) a lot of overweight people have developed, at minimum, some insulin issues and other metabolic issues for which restricting carbohydrates is beneficial;
2) It's an easy way for many people to control calorie intake without actually counting calories...many carbs are also high calorie...eliminate the carbs, eliminate the calories;
3) Many people associate carbs with "junk" foods, not so much things like fruit, oats, legumes, lentils and other whole grains, etc...reducing carbs essentially helps them "clean" up their diets and eliminates a lot of high calorie "junk" food. By default, many people who diet will naturally reduce carbohydrate intake by eliminating "bad" foods.
4) Carbohydrates are the least important of the three macro-nutrients. Dietary fat is highly essential to numerous bodily functions and study after study is illustrating just how bad the low fat/no fat diet craze was for our health. Equally, protein is very important as well. IMO carbohydrates are important, but people can function and perform just fine on less of them.
As far as keto goes, I don't know why anyone would subject themselves to that unless they absolutely had to for medical reasons...IMO, there really is no upside and by going that low on carbohydrates many may be missing on a lot of nutrients.
Most people who eat the SAD could definitely stand to moderate their carbohydrate intake, but low carbing isn't necessary in most cases...it's just a rather convenient way of providing a deficiency of energy.
Not really, it's more likely someone on the SAD is nutrient deficient, as well as dehydrated, than someone who is doing LC or keto correctly. If you want to include "incorrectly" you also have to acknowledge all the low fat, vegetarian, vegan, etc people who are also nutrient deficient because they do it wrong.
You will note that I said "many"...not everyone. IMO, it takes a bit more knowledge to get proper nutrition doing something like keto and "many" people do not have that knowledge...and of course someone eating the SAD would be nutrient deficient...that's kind of a no *kitten* sherlock kinda thing.
I believe I already address low fat in #4 and why that's a *kitten* idea. and yea, a lot of vegetarians and vegans in particular are nutrient deficient because, again...it takes a lot more knowledge of nutrition to get proper nutrition than "many" people have.
I always like how you try to pick a fight though...0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »IMO, it takes a bit more knowledge to get proper nutrition doing something like keto and "many" people do not have that knowledge.
I agree. It's amazing how many people suffer just because they try keto without consuming sufficient sodium to replace that which is inevitably lost in their urine.
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HeySwoleSister wrote: »carbs are less satiating than fat
This gets thrown out a lot on this site as if it's a universal truth. It is not. While many people do find that fats are satiating, many others either do not find them satisfying or only find them satisfying when eaten with carbs and protein.
"Volume" eaters who like the feeling of a bulky meal will do better with FIBER for satiety, (And, yes, fiber is a type of carbohydrate) and fast eaters may find themselves feeling deprived when a fatty plate is empty so very quickly (fat has more calories per gram than other macros)
There are several medical conditions which respond well to a low carb or keto diet. However, for weight loss alone? Low carb isn't needed. Some people find it suits their preferences, but otherwise it's totally unnecessary.
This. Carbs get lumped into one non-satisfying category like they're all one in the same. No...a bag of skittles won't fill me up. But I feel pretty damn good after a baked potato.0 -
Potatoes are very satiating. Potato chips? Not so much. If you can just avoid those calorie-dense foods that aren't satiating, you're doing great. Low-carb can just make that a no-brainer.0
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I've been limiting my carb intake for about two months, down to levels of like under 20g/day (like Atkins,) and increased my fat intake, so to put myself into ketosis... My ratios are 5% carbs, 15% protein, 80% fat. I lost 80 lbs in those two months, and without any extra exercise of any kind. I have a desk job, and averaged about 5000 steps a day, so again, not too active. Ketosis is good, not a fad. I tried to increase my carbs to under 50g/day, and increased my protein and I stopped losing... Need to go back.
If you want to know more, let me know, I can tell you some tricks to throw yourself into ketosis faster... MCT! Anyway, far too much to discuss in this reply. Again, if you're truly interested in ketosis, let me know... I've experienced it, lived through it, live it.
Michael.0 -
Ketosis isn't important, necessary or crucial to CICO.
Ketosis is a metabolic state where most of the body's energy supply comes ketone in the blood in contrast to a state of glycolysis where blood glucose provides most of the energy.
FYI: During the evening when we are sleeping our bodies usually revert to ketosis. A low carb ketogenic diet encourages our bodies to remain in that state 24/7.
Those who use a low carb diet as they weight loss program use it because it often comes with diminished hunger pains and cravings. Aka...for many, myself included, it helps people maintain a deficit easier than other programs. It is still a CICO program though since a low carb ketosis diet will not work if you do not maintain a deficit.
Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for.
Do you have more energy when you are in ketosis? I find myself getting tired more than I would like.
There are many weight loss plans out there that start with ketosis, however it is not recommended to go over 12 weeks. I'm on a diet that allows me to go up and down a step if I wish so not in ketosis for too long. Absolutely full of energy, able to get to Level 3 of 30 Day Shred, only on day 3. I have lots of strength. Feel great and my skin, nails and hair have never looked better.0 -
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Nope. There is no reason that one should not stay in ketosis for longer than 12 weeks if they so choose.
Here is a link to a research study which shows as much:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/
If you read my post you would have seen I said NOT RECOMMENDED to give over 12 weeks. So I don't get the nope!!0 -
I've been limiting my carb intake for about two months, down to levels of like under 20g/day (like Atkins,) and increased my fat intake, so to put myself into ketosis... My ratios are 5% carbs, 15% protein, 80% fat. I lost 80 lbs in those two months, and without any extra exercise of any kind. I have a desk job, and averaged about 5000 steps a day, so again, not too active. Ketosis is good, not a fad. I tried to increase my carbs to under 50g/day, and increased my protein and I stopped losing... Need to go back.
If you want to know more, let me know, I can tell you some tricks to throw yourself into ketosis faster... MCT! Anyway, far too much to discuss in this reply. Again, if you're truly interested in ketosis, let me know... I've experienced it, lived through it, live it.
Michael.
80lbs in 2 months? How much were you eating? That doesn't seem possible. That's 10lbs a week...unless you had a really large amount to lose? Were you under medical supervision for this?0 -
I've been limiting my carb intake for about two months, down to levels of like under 20g/day (like Atkins,) and increased my fat intake, so to put myself into ketosis... My ratios are 5% carbs, 15% protein, 80% fat. I lost 80 lbs in those two months, and without any extra exercise of any kind. I have a desk job, and averaged about 5000 steps a day, so again, not too active. Ketosis is good, not a fad. I tried to increase my carbs to under 50g/day, and increased my protein and I stopped losing... Need to go back.
If you want to know more, let me know, I can tell you some tricks to throw yourself into ketosis faster... MCT! Anyway, far too much to discuss in this reply. Again, if you're truly interested in ketosis, let me know... I've experienced it, lived through it, live it.
Michael.
Sounds like utter *kitten* to me0 -
Nope. There is no reason that one should not stay in ketosis for longer than 12 weeks if they so choose.
Here is a link to a research study which shows as much:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/
If you read my post you would have seen I said NOT RECOMMENDED to give over 12 weeks. So I don't get the nope!!
It's a double negative. The study advocates that it's fine to do ketosis for 24 weeks with no ill effects.
But, one study. Always do your own research.*
*I have no knowledge/opinion either way.0 -
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Well, for what it's worth, your eggs, sausage and bacon have a lot of protein.HeySwoleSister wrote: »carbs are less satiating than fat
This gets thrown out a lot on this site as if it's a universal truth. It is not. While many people do find that fats are satiating, many others either do not find them satisfying or only find them satisfying when eaten with carbs and protein.
"Volume" eaters who like the feeling of a bulky meal will do better with FIBER for satiety, (And, yes, fiber is a type of carbohydrate) and fast eaters may find themselves feeling deprived when a fatty plate is empty so very quickly (fat has more calories per gram than other macros)
There are several medical conditions which respond well to a low carb or keto diet. However, for weight loss alone? Low carb isn't needed. Some people find it suits their preferences, but otherwise it's totally unnecessary.
This. I've been trying to figure out what makes me stay full longest for breakfast, and protein and fats don't do it for me. I have a carb heavy breakfast of pancakes with eggs, sausage, bacon, and fruit, then I have to force myself to eat lunch. Not too full, but just right for over 4 hours. Love dem carbs!
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