Explain importance of Ketosis in CICO
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I have an awesome pizza recipe... Man do I love pizza, and was craving it to no end... Found out somewhere on the internet and tweaked it a bit.
Crust:
4c hard cheese (parm, cheddar, etc.) [You need to shred it yourself, don't buy pre shredded, has extra carbs that keep the cheese from sticking together]
4 eggs
Toppings:
3/4c pizza sauce
12oz pepperoni, sausage or hamburger
2c cheese (I like mozz)
In a bowl mix the two crust ingredients together into a "dough" then press into a shallow baking sheet... I suggest a silicon coated one, otherwise half the crust stays in the pan. Bake at 350 for about 10 minutes, or until it gets a light brown in places (remember this is not wheat dough, don't expect it to darken to much, it'll tasted burned, which it would be.) Spread crust with the pizza sauce, meat and top with the cheese, bake for another 7 to 10 minutes, or until it's the way you like it. The crust is not going to be really crisp... It's eggs and cheese for God's sake... Cut into 8 pieces... Huge on fat, protein is a bit high as well, can't eat it all the time, and stay in ketosis (you'll start going into gluconeogenesis) and low in carbs. Helps me through the rough days...yum!!0 -
For me, the doctor just told me "you have to eat more." So i did the best i could, focused mostly on fats. 3 eggs for breakfast, with olive oil, lunch was salad with a lot of olive oil, and dinner, if i was lucky, something like ox tail soup, with some bone marrow. The book also talks about fermented foods, which contain healthy bacteria for the stomach.
Thanks for your advise. So far I can't eat some types of beans, peppers, some cake (found out before diet) and fizzy drinks (before diet). Egg is a bit dodgy. Most salads are ok. Never even considered bone marrow but hmmmm its available here so nice to know about it.
You learn something new every day!!0 -
Don't worry about the "fad" label. Ketosis is a normal physiological state that we evolved to deal with periods of low carb availability. Think of your ancestors in the winter months, for example. )
They would have been eating cabbage. And potatoes. And rice. And other carb-heavy foods that store well.
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It seems controlling carbs to the degree that an individual maintains ketosis has been a successful way for many to lose weight. I have seen several threads re: "Atkins" and "South Beach" diets being successful because carbs are less satiating than fat and protein. My curiosity is how ketosis is even relevant if we think even these diets still depend on CICO.
Thanks!
I believe all 'diets' for weight loss boil down to CICO and it really doesn't matter what route works for you to get there so long as your macro and micro nutrient requirements are met. If weight loss is your objective then the answer is Calories in < Calories Out, albeit not to the extent that you risk long-term damage via a VLCD
There is no minimum for carbs that I've ever come across (0 carbs is impossible) but there are protein and fat minimums and calorie minimums for long-term sustained health. For some a level of carbs are necessary, albeit emotionally / lifestyle .. I love my carbs and lost my weight and maintain at roughly 50-60% C. But I only monitor hitting my protein and fats macros as a minimum and they are set on standard equations of 0.8g P per lb LBM / 0.35g F per lb bodyweight
If you can stick to an exclusion diet, like Keto / Low-Carb, for life or have the control to work slowly from that exclusion into a more general maintenance then great for you - you've got it cracked. But many crash and burn once their willpower slips
I think the CICO brigade, and yes I'm one of them, just think that lack of deprivation is a huge bonus .. we tend to work on a 'meet your macro and micros across the day / week then anything goes' mentality and I, for one, find it far easier to live by than a 'diet'
I think I'm just trying to say if ketosis is your route to achieving that CICO then that's the same as IIFYM being your route .. it's what works for the individual0 -
This is very true. Personally, I like ketosis because it is easier for me to figure out and I don't feel hungry when I fast some days and parts of days and to work out on an empty stomach and eat later to fuel my body's rebuilding phase. And, yes, it will be more difficult to return to a more normal maintenance diet, mainly because it is hard to find and stick to a happy median between extremes. FWIW, I do seem to have extraordinary will power. Guess that comes from being a monk for so many years.It seems controlling carbs to the degree that an individual maintains ketosis has been a successful way for many to lose weight. I have seen several threads re: "Atkins" and "South Beach" diets being successful because carbs are less satiating than fat and protein. My curiosity is how ketosis is even relevant if we think even these diets still depend on CICO.
Thanks!
I believe all 'diets' for weight loss boil down to CICO and it really doesn't matter what route works for you to get there so long as your macro and micro nutrient requirements are met. If weight loss is your objective then the answer is Calories in < Calories Out, albeit not to the extent that you risk long-term damage via a VLCD
There is no minimum for carbs that I've ever come across (0 carbs is impossible) but there are protein and fat minimums and calorie minimums for long-term sustained health. For some a level of carbs are necessary, albeit emotionally / lifestyle .. I love my carbs and lost my weight and maintain at roughly 50-60% C. But I only monitor hitting my protein and fats macros as a minimum and they are set on standard equations of 0.8g P per lb LBM / 0.35g F per lb bodyweight
If you can stick to an exclusion diet, like Keto / Low-Carb, for life or have the control to work slowly from that exclusion into a more general maintenance then great for you - you've got it cracked. But many crash and burn once their willpower slips
I think the CICO brigade, and yes I'm one of them, just think that lack of deprivation is a huge bonus .. we tend to work on a 'meet your macro and micros across the day / week then anything goes' mentality and I, for one, find it far easier to live by than a 'diet'
I think I'm just trying to say if ketosis is your route to achieving that CICO then that's the same as IIFYM being your route .. it's what works for the individual0 -
That is the inherent issue... you can't consider it a "diet"... it needs to be a lifestyle - you need to change the way you think about food and what you want to put in your body. Ketosis is a great way to lose weight, true, but if you are doing the "keto diet" routine, just to lose weight... Well, like people say, it is hard to "go back to a normal way of eating." You don't have that "issue" if you eat as you decide what you want to put in. (Just my thoughts.) I lost a huge amount of weight doing keto, I have since then added some carbs (still no sugars, starches, cereals, breads; limited vegatables; scarce fruits,) but that is what I decided I wanted to do... Diets fail, because people know that it's just a "temporary state," they look forward to the end, so that they can go back to the way they are "used to living;" lifestyle changes are permanent. You do know what the definition of insanity is, right? Doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results... that is dieting.
Ok, stepping off the soapbox.
Michael.0 -
That is the inherent issue... you can't consider it a "diet"... it needs to be a lifestyle - you need to change the way you think about food and what you want to put in your body. Ketosis is a great way to lose weight, true, but if you are doing the "keto diet" routine, just to lose weight... Well, like people say, it is hard to "go back to a normal way of eating." You don't have that "issue" if you eat as you decide what you want to put in. (Just my thoughts.) I lost a huge amount of weight doing keto, I have since then added some carbs (still no sugars, starches, cereals, breads; limited vegatables; scarce fruits,) but that is what I decided I wanted to do... Diets fail, because people know that it's just a "temporary state," they look forward to the end, so that they can go back to the way they are "used to living;" lifestyle changes are permanent. You do know what the definition of insanity is, right? Doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results... that is dieting.
Ok, stepping off the soapbox.
Michael.
Dear Michael
The term for the food and drink you consume over time is "diet" so I'm afraid I take issue with your semantic argument
I am at maintenance but what I consume is my diet, I was very careful to say "diet for weight loss"
OK stepping off pedant's step
Rabbit0 -
That is the inherent issue... you can't consider it a "diet"... it needs to be a lifestyle - you need to change the way you think about food and what you want to put in your body. Ketosis is a great way to lose weight, true, but if you are doing the "keto diet" routine, just to lose weight... Well, like people say, it is hard to "go back to a normal way of eating." You don't have that "issue" if you eat as you decide what you want to put in. (Just my thoughts.) I lost a huge amount of weight doing keto, I have since then added some carbs (still no sugars, starches, cereals, breads; limited vegatables; scarce fruits,) but that is what I decided I wanted to do... Diets fail, because people know that it's just a "temporary state," they look forward to the end, so that they can go back to the way they are "used to living;" lifestyle changes are permanent. You do know what the definition of insanity is, right? Doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results... that is dieting.
Ok, stepping off the soapbox.
Michael.
Dear Michael
The term for the food and drink you consume over time is "diet" so I'm afraid I take issue with your semantic argument
I am at maintenance but what I consume is my diet, I was very careful to say "diet for weight loss"
OK stepping off pedant's step
Rabbit
Yes, and since low-carb is SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WHAT YOU EAT, it is a DIET and a DIET ONLY. Nothing makes me as batty as "low carb lifestyle." Well, that's not true. "Loosing" weight is up there, as well.0 -
You are restricting something (carbs)...it is a diet by every definition.0
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HeySwoleSister wrote: »carbs are less satiating than fat
This gets thrown out a lot on this site as if it's a universal truth. It is not. While many people do find that fats are satiating, many others either do not find them satisfying or only find them satisfying when eaten with carbs and protein.
"Volume" eaters who like the feeling of a bulky meal will do better with FIBER for satiety, (And, yes, fiber is a type of carbohydrate) and fast eaters may find themselves feeling deprived when a fatty plate is empty so very quickly (fat has more calories per gram than other macros)
There are several medical conditions which respond well to a low carb or keto diet. However, for weight loss alone? Low carb isn't needed. Some people find it suits their preferences, but otherwise it's totally unnecessary.
This. I've been trying to figure out what makes me stay full longest for breakfast, and protein and fats don't do it for me. I have a carb heavy breakfast of pancakes with eggs, sausage, bacon, and fruit, then I have to force myself to eat lunch. Not too full, but just right for over 4 hours. Love dem carbs!
Urm. Carb heavy? Eggs.Sausage.Bacon. I would bet these are why you are full up. Your breakfast is full of fats and proteins!
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MY EXPERIENCE
- Did CICO for over a year and lost a stone and a half (started at 10stone12 ish)
- Platued at 9stone3 for six months. After trying everything including very specific logging/weighing I could not lose anymore weight eating at my TDEE after continually recalculating it
- The only way I could lose was to eat 1000 calories a day. I was not happy with this. And it is not healthy. Nobody should do this. (And remember I was still 9stone3 and I am 5ft 1 - I could go down to 7stone10 and still be in my healthy weight range !)
- Found a diet which advocates 'managing' carbs and not eating carbs and fats in the same meal (apart from salad and veg, yoghurt and berries)
- Portions are unlimited and fat is embraced - I've been very much enjoying butter in all my cooking, full fat yoghurt, cheese (lots of cheese!) streaky bacon, fatty pork, duck skin galore
- I have not eaten processed foods - just 'real' foods
- In around a month I have lost a further 6lb
- I am probably now close to my 'natural weight' and won't lose much more but will be able to maintain eating what feels like a huge amount of food and feeling way more satisfied and happy than I was doing CICO
- I believe the success is down to not mixing carbs and fat in the same meal and eating well again
- I NOW believe not all calories are equal and perform different jobs in the body and are used in different ways
- Last week many argued that I'm simply just eating less calories but because I no longer weigh anything or log anything I just don't realise it
- I am now convinced CICO is a bad habit to get into for life (even though I was obsessed with it!) and I wish I had found this way of eating sooner.
- I took one day last week and I had eaten 2000 calories while only burning 1600 (ish). I know I am eating way more than 1000 calories a day for sure and when I started eating this new way I was a stone and half lighter than I was when I started CICO
- The advocates of CICO on here won't ever believe this - ever - because they fundamentally believe all calories are equal. I don't believe this. I believe they are different to other units of measurement. They are energy. In the same way your car will perform differently if you use super unleaded v unleaded your body will perform differently depending on the kind of energy you are putting into it. I now think of food in terms of energy. Not calories.
- Even if I am wrong and even if it just a case of CICO wrapped up in a different form then it's certainly an alternative for those who enjoy eating real food, don't want to count calories and don't want to be that person using a little set of scales to weigh a chicken breast before they have their dinner ...
- I didn't believe it would work because I was so ingrained in CICO and convinced this was the only way to lose weigh. But it did work for me and it has now become a lifestyle choice I love
- Fats meals make me fuller than carb meals but being able to pour out as much porridge as I want and chop up any size banana on top of it I want to is a pure joy!
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Here we go again^^^ Again with putting words in people's mouths while advocating a diet that she can't even explain promoted by a woman that makes no sense at all.
What words am I putting in people's mouth and I haven't even mentioned a name of the diet. I was careful in case I got accused of promoting. But I'm not. I'm saying what works for me in the same way you guys say CICO works for you. That's okay isn't it?
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You are restricting something (carbs)...it is a diet by every definition.
I don't eat any broken glass. I guess that means I'm on a low-broken-glass diet.
The point some low-carbers are trying to make is that they don't feel like they're missing out on anything. Their hunger and cravings are finally under control. So the "restriction" doesn't seem like a restriction -- it seems like a better normal.0 -
So the "restriction" doesn't seem like a restriction -- it seems like a better normal.
Exactly this; it's a better normal.
I eat higher carbs on occasion, which I enjoy, but around the holidays those higher carb days start to add up and it's a relief to get back to normal -- which is low carb. I recognize by definition low carb is restrictive but it doesn't feel that way in practice.
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kellysdavies wrote: »Here we go again^^^ Again with putting words in people's mouths while advocating a diet that she can't even explain promoted by a woman that makes no sense at all.
What words am I putting in people's mouth and I haven't even mentioned a name of the diet. I was careful in case I got accused of promoting. But I'm not. I'm saying what works for me in the same way you guys say CICO works for you. That's okay isn't it?
Has everyone on here that says it's about CICO actually said that?
"The advocates of CICO on here won't ever believe this - ever - because they fundamentally believe all calories are equal". Let's see, how about me specifically? Have I said that? Has everyone said that?
Not *everyone* but many asserted this view in the previous discussion. I apologise. I should have said *many*. I don't know if you have said it. I haven't read your posts.
Then you say "I believe the success is down to not mixing carbs and fat in the same meal and eating well again" which makes no sense since you actually do eat carbs and fat together. Like cheese, it's bot . You can't say you don't eat fat and carbs together then turn around and say that. Nope. You can't.
Okay, again, perhaps I should have been more specific. But I did note the exceptions - veg, salad, berries. So I will eat a 'fat meal' say steak with veg and cheese and butter but no high carb food such as rice, potatoes and pasta. However I would have a 'carb' meal such as these but with no fats - just veg.
The theory is thus: your body will alway use carbs for energy first and all the other nutrients will go and do their jobs. Last to be used will be the fat which the body will then store in case it needs it. Of course it doesn't usually need it as we tend to eat again a few hours later. So the storing continues. Eat a mostly carb meal and it gets used for energy. Eat mostly a fat meal the body has no choice but to use this for energy. Eat a fat and carb meal together - say a ham sandwich - the body will use the bread and save the ham for later.
As far as I know, as much as you would love to think I do, I don't eat fake food.
I didn't say you did! But I did while doing CICO for a 18 months. And I'm not off 'fake' food forever but it will be just an occasional treat - like a scone and jam and cream instead of a lunch - not as well as a lunch. But I don't want to get back to habitually eating processed food just because it is low in calories or I have enough calories left for the day. Plus, I'm now not even craving them like I was on CICO because I have addressed the things which were driving these cravings.
The things you say make no sense
They do to me. Sorry if you can't understand my position.
.
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You are restricting something (carbs)...it is a diet by every definition.
I don't eat any broken glass. I guess that means I'm on a low-broken-glass diet.
The point some low-carbers are trying to make is that they don't feel like they're missing out on anything. Their hunger and cravings are finally under control. So the "restriction" doesn't seem like a restriction -- it seems like a better normal.
YES! All the yes!
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HeySwoleSister wrote: »
Yes, and since low-carb is SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WHAT YOU EAT, it is a DIET and a DIET ONLY. Nothing makes me as batty as "low carb lifestyle." Well, that's not true. "Loosing" weight is up there, as well.
Gotta concur with both of those.
Not "low-carb diet" only, but anytime someone takes "diet" out of a generic context (i.e. eating pattern) and conflates it with restriction. SAD is a diet (eating pattern), and it doesn't connote restriction or weight loss.
ETA: It was a good question, OP. Thanks for asking it.0 -
Well, using the CICO strictly and thinking that a calorie (kcal) is a calorie, is a calorie, is false thinking... Sugars/alcohols take nothing to metabolize, both fats and proteins take about twice as much energy to metabolize into a useable energy source (from what I recall.) So just keep that in mind. Plus you don't get fat from fat, you get fat from carbs, more exactly from fructose... Okay, before I get spammed with replies that you can acquire fat from more than fructose, such as gorging yourself with huge amounts of calories, I concede, but let's assume that we're not looking at extreme cases.0
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Well, using the CICO strictly and thinking that a calorie (kcal) is a calorie, is a calorie, is false thinking... Sugars/alcohols take nothing to metabolize, both fats and proteins take about twice as much energy to metabolize into a useable energy source (from what I recall.) So just keep that in mind. Plus you don't get fat from fat, you get fat from carbs, more exactly from fructose... Okay, before I get spammed with replies that you can acquire fat from more than fructose, such as gorging yourself with huge amounts of calories, I concede, but let's assume that we're not looking at extreme cases.
DNL is rare in humans, and dietary fat is the easiest to store. Look at overfeeding studies.
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-overfeeding-overview-high-fat-carb.html
"In the short run, like on refeed days, for example, carbohydrate overfeeding has another advantage over fat overfeeding, because it takes roughly 500g of carbohydrates (that's 2,000kcal) before even a single gram of those carbs is converted to fat and potentially, but not necessarily stored as body fat (Acheson. 1988) - at "only" 400kcal extra from carbs for one day there was no net lipogenesis at all (see Figure 5). This result is corroborated by data from McDevitt et al. (2000) who observed that the fat gain with fat overfeeding starts with day 1, while there is a time gap in the increase in body fat with carbohydrate overfeeding (McDevitt. 2000)."0 -
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Well, using the CICO strictly and thinking that a calorie (kcal) is a calorie, is a calorie, is false thinking... Sugars/alcohols take nothing to metabolize, both fats and proteins take about twice as much energy to metabolize into a useable energy source (from what I recall.) So just keep that in mind. Plus you don't get fat from fat, you get fat from carbs, more exactly from fructose... Okay, before I get spammed with replies that you can acquire fat from more than fructose, such as gorging yourself with huge amounts of calories, I concede, but let's assume that we're not looking at extreme cases.
The differences in TEF are small. Even if you were to consume only one macronutrient and nothing else you wouldnt get much of a difference.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Well, using the CICO strictly and thinking that a calorie (kcal) is a calorie, is a calorie, is false thinking... Sugars/alcohols take nothing to metabolize, both fats and proteins take about twice as much energy to metabolize into a useable energy source (from what I recall.) So just keep that in mind. Plus you don't get fat from fat, you get fat from carbs, more exactly from fructose... Okay, before I get spammed with replies that you can acquire fat from more than fructose, such as gorging yourself with huge amounts of calories, I concede, but let's assume that we're not looking at extreme cases.
The differences in TEF are small. Even if you were to consume only one macronutrient and nothing else you wouldnt get much of a difference.
The TEF associated with excess protein ultimately stored as fat can be fairly high since the process is so inefficient (catabolism to amino acids, followed by gluconeogenesis, and finally fatty acid synthesis).
But that is a relatively small effect compared to the effect of ketones on hunger. Ketosis is mostly about signalling your brain to eat less.0
This discussion has been closed.
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