Weight vs form
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slideaway1 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Both are important. Proper form must be learned first, but in order to improve, weight must be intelligently added over time to support the progressive overload or you're just spinning your wheels. Some people are afraid of adding weight due to fear of breaking form or being ridiculed by the "form police."Also, speed is important slow speed + low weight > high speed and high weight. Yes, you can lift more at a higher speed, but then you're cheating yourself by using momentum to lift the weight, not your actual strength.
It would actually be much more accurate to say something like, lifting a load at high intensity with bad form is less productive than a sub-maximal intensity with a slower tempo and good form. If you lift a load at say 80%+ and you try to use a slow tempo you're gonna have a hell of time getting through the concentric. Heavy loads should definitely be executed with controlled explosiveness during the concentric phase of a lift and within the context of using good form. Even though the bar may actually move slowly due to the load, that doesn't mean the effort used to move the weight was "slow".
Generally speaking lower weight or sub-max intensities use a slower tempo, but the concentric phase is still generally fast, whereas the "slow" (e.g., 4/2/1 tempo) is really in the eccentric and possibly even a pause at the base of the eccentric (e.g., hole of the squat). Though this is not applicable to all, there are modalities of training (i.e. Dynamic Effort or Power Training) that utilizes sub-maximal loads that are moved explosively.
I agree with this. Even something as simple as barbell curls. If I do ten reps without thinking I can just quickly power through the set (which might look impressive). Now if I try exactly the same weight, but slow the movement down, think about the bicep, squeeze the bicep at the top and slowly lower, I could probably only hit 8 reps of the same weight that I just did. (which looks far from impressive, but will probably improve my gains more).
I will say that this purely anecdotal based on experience, but I don't see much reason to blast through isolation exercises. I do think the concentric should still be fast but I don't know why one would just blast through it. I think using a good tempo that allows you to really control / feel the movement is best in those situations. In the OPT training model, NASM recommends a 2/0/2 tempo for hypertrophy.
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »slideaway1 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Both are important. Proper form must be learned first, but in order to improve, weight must be intelligently added over time to support the progressive overload or you're just spinning your wheels. Some people are afraid of adding weight due to fear of breaking form or being ridiculed by the "form police."Also, speed is important slow speed + low weight > high speed and high weight. Yes, you can lift more at a higher speed, but then you're cheating yourself by using momentum to lift the weight, not your actual strength.
It would actually be much more accurate to say something like, lifting a load at high intensity with bad form is less productive than a sub-maximal intensity with a slower tempo and good form. If you lift a load at say 80%+ and you try to use a slow tempo you're gonna have a hell of time getting through the concentric. Heavy loads should definitely be executed with controlled explosiveness during the concentric phase of a lift and within the context of using good form. Even though the bar may actually move slowly due to the load, that doesn't mean the effort used to move the weight was "slow".
Generally speaking lower weight or sub-max intensities use a slower tempo, but the concentric phase is still generally fast, whereas the "slow" (e.g., 4/2/1 tempo) is really in the eccentric and possibly even a pause at the base of the eccentric (e.g., hole of the squat). Though this is not applicable to all, there are modalities of training (i.e. Dynamic Effort or Power Training) that utilizes sub-maximal loads that are moved explosively.
I agree with this. Even something as simple as barbell curls. If I do ten reps without thinking I can just quickly power through the set (which might look impressive). Now if I try exactly the same weight, but slow the movement down, think about the bicep, squeeze the bicep at the top and slowly lower, I could probably only hit 8 reps of the same weight that I just did. (which looks far from impressive, but will probably improve my gains more).
I will say that this purely anecdotal based on experience, but I don't see much reason to blast through isolation exercises. I do think the concentric should still be fast but I don't know why one would just blast through it. I think using a good tempo that allows you to really control / feel the movement is best in those situations. In the OPT training model, NASM recommends a 2/0/2 tempo for hypertrophy.
I totally agree, I think people blast through them for ego lifting because it might look impressive to some people to see them lifting heavy weights for reps regardless if most of it is achieved by momentum. By slowing the movement down and focusing on contraction and form it really finds people out.0 -
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slideaway1 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »slideaway1 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Both are important. Proper form must be learned first, but in order to improve, weight must be intelligently added over time to support the progressive overload or you're just spinning your wheels. Some people are afraid of adding weight due to fear of breaking form or being ridiculed by the "form police."Also, speed is important slow speed + low weight > high speed and high weight. Yes, you can lift more at a higher speed, but then you're cheating yourself by using momentum to lift the weight, not your actual strength.
It would actually be much more accurate to say something like, lifting a load at high intensity with bad form is less productive than a sub-maximal intensity with a slower tempo and good form. If you lift a load at say 80%+ and you try to use a slow tempo you're gonna have a hell of time getting through the concentric. Heavy loads should definitely be executed with controlled explosiveness during the concentric phase of a lift and within the context of using good form. Even though the bar may actually move slowly due to the load, that doesn't mean the effort used to move the weight was "slow".
Generally speaking lower weight or sub-max intensities use a slower tempo, but the concentric phase is still generally fast, whereas the "slow" (e.g., 4/2/1 tempo) is really in the eccentric and possibly even a pause at the base of the eccentric (e.g., hole of the squat). Though this is not applicable to all, there are modalities of training (i.e. Dynamic Effort or Power Training) that utilizes sub-maximal loads that are moved explosively.
I agree with this. Even something as simple as barbell curls. If I do ten reps without thinking I can just quickly power through the set (which might look impressive). Now if I try exactly the same weight, but slow the movement down, think about the bicep, squeeze the bicep at the top and slowly lower, I could probably only hit 8 reps of the same weight that I just did. (which looks far from impressive, but will probably improve my gains more).
I will say that this purely anecdotal based on experience, but I don't see much reason to blast through isolation exercises. I do think the concentric should still be fast but I don't know why one would just blast through it. I think using a good tempo that allows you to really control / feel the movement is best in those situations. In the OPT training model, NASM recommends a 2/0/2 tempo for hypertrophy.
I totally agree, I think people blast through them for ego lifting because it might look impressive to some people to see them lifting heavy weights for reps regardless if most of it is achieved by momentum. By slowing the movement down and focusing on contraction and form it really finds people out.
I think some of this comes with age and experience; unfortunately the ego controls a lot of this too. Some guys just think if they're curling something less than 25lbs they're less of man, meanwhile the guy using the 15lb DB in an intelligent fashion is making more gains than they guy power-curling the 50lb DB.0 -
Form. I learned my lesson after trying to "man-up" and muscle through weight I was not ready for and suffered injury after injury. Last year I just started working out again with a IFBB and she really helped me focus on form, just starting with a bar and working up from there. I've since surpassed any previous limits by focusing on form and working up slowly, giving plenty of rest between workouts.0
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never sacrifice form for weight or volume0
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Form is always more important in my book. My book isn't that cool but it's still #1 in it.
Yeah you might look awesome pulling up a 400 lb deadlift but how cool will you look when you end up not being able to sit properly because you were completely rounded out while pulling. When I first stated squatting I thought I was so awesome when I got to 220 lbs for a few reps until I got a former check and realized when I started doing them properly I had to drop back down to 185.
How did you get your form check?0 -
MireyGal76 wrote: »Form is always more important in my book. My book isn't that cool but it's still #1 in it.
Yeah you might look awesome pulling up a 400 lb deadlift but how cool will you look when you end up not being able to sit properly because you were completely rounded out while pulling. When I first stated squatting I thought I was so awesome when I got to 220 lbs for a few reps until I got a former check and realized when I started doing them properly I had to drop back down to 185.
How did you get your form check?
My husband had terrible squat form. He actually learned proper form at CrossFit
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I usually just worry about the weight on the bar. The more, the better. If the bar is bending with the weight stationary on the ground then it's just about right. I figure I can always learn how to lift it with proper form later.0
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MireyGal76 wrote: »Form is always more important in my book. My book isn't that cool but it's still #1 in it.
Yeah you might look awesome pulling up a 400 lb deadlift but how cool will you look when you end up not being able to sit properly because you were completely rounded out while pulling. When I first stated squatting I thought I was so awesome when I got to 220 lbs for a few reps until I got a former check and realized when I started doing them properly I had to drop back down to 185.
How did you get your form check?
I had my Mrs shoot some video while I was training and then I uploaded it in the ETP group here on MFP I got some constructive advice and made some necessary changes. Then a few times after that I did the same thing I posted it on my page and had a few of the people on here that know their stuff pick it apart. I had to get over being embarrassed of looking like a fool posting bad squats and accept that my form needed work
Awesome! that's what I'm doing too... and it does seem to be working pretty well.0
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