Gaining muscle on a deficit

ninerbuff

Beginner gains.

If you have never done any sort of strength training (at least not in the last 5-10 years), I would go so far as to say that it would be pretty surprising not to see a tiny bit of change when you start doing it regularly. In daily sedentary lifestyle, many muscles groups just aren't tested nearly enough (practically atrophied in my case), so any practically any load could have a small (but nevertheless perceivable) effect.

I was skinny fat 10 weeks ago and have been on a moderate calorie deficit (~250 kcals) since. I didn't lose any scale weight at all for the approximately 8 weeks that I've been pretty intensely strength training, but have lost a visibly significant amount of fat around my midsection. My triceps, shoulders, lats, and traps are no where near big, but are clearly larger now (I didn't start with much/any excess fat in those areas so they weren't just masked).

From here on out though, I would NOT expect any sustained mass gain at all. I am just working to lose as little of it as possible as I continue to drop the fat away.

There are exceptions, but even then the muscle gain/regain is minimal.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

grandevampire

There are exceptions, but even then the muscle gain/regain is minimal.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Yep, I fully concur that it's minimal. But for a weakling who has bony limbs, any sort of convex shape on the upper body is promptly noticed and touched (a lot).

pjp1125

In a word, protein.

ninerbuff

In a word, protein.

Only part of the equation. The rest relies on calorie surplus even if only modest.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

mustgetmuscles1

Hello everyone,

Excuse my poor knowledge on this subject.
A lot of people say that you can't gain muscle when you're dieting. Why is that so?
If I consume lots of protein (120-130g per day) and lift weight, why wouldn't I gain muscle?

Thanks in advance!

You can eat all the protein you want but if you are still not in a surplus it will be used for energy and repair before it will be used to create new muscle.

You need the building material AND the energy to add muscle. Your body will go to fat stores for energy once it runs out of fuel from what you ate. So it is hard to have a surplus of protein and energy at the same time on a deficit.

wannabpiper

Did I mention they are wrong?

I know this topic has been done to death, but for those of us new to mfp it's a strange concept. The issue, I believe, is that we need to define a calorie "deficit" for this purpose. I'm thinking that a caloric deficit will allow us to lose weight, however, if we go below our bmr needs, that's the actual "deficit" we're talking about?

For example, if my body requires 2,000 calories to maintain at my current weight and at my current activity level, and I drop to 1,000 cals, that's below my necessary bmr, that which my body needs to function properly. So in this case, I'm guessing my body won't make muscle because it's using everything it needs to function.

If I up the calories to 1300, which might be my bmr + 100 extra cals, then I could build muscle with that additional 100 cals. Is this too simple an analysis or do I have it right?

Thx for revisiting this; I get that you've done it again and again and appreciate your patience.

Laura

EmmaKarney

You can't gain fat in a deficit so I don't see why it's so difficult to understand that you can't gain muscle in a deficit.

stumblinthrulife

In a word, protein.

If you're on a deficit, the protein will be oxidized for energy for everyday living before it is used to build muscle.

And your body won't use protein to build unnecessary muscle while it's dipping into fat stores for survival. To your body, fat stores are more important to long term survival than slightly bigger muscles.

mustgetmuscles1

Did I mention they are wrong?

I know this topic has been done to death, but for those of us new to mfp it's a strange concept. The issue, I believe, is that we need to define a calorie "deficit" for this purpose. I'm thinking that a caloric deficit will allow us to lose weight, however, if we go below our bmr needs, that's the actual "deficit" we're talking about?

For example, if my body requires 2,000 calories to maintain at my current weight and at my current activity level, and I drop to 1,000 cals, that's below my necessary bmr, that which my body needs to function properly. So in this case, I'm guessing my body won't make muscle because it's using everything it needs to function.

If I up the calories to 1300, which might be my bmr + 100 extra cals, then I could build muscle with that additional 100 cals. Is this too simple an analysis or do I have it right?

Thx for revisiting this; I get that you've done it again and again and appreciate your patience.

Laura

If your body requires 2000 to maintain then anything less than that will cause you to lose weight not add it. You would need the 2000 plus to increase weight.

If you ate 1400 you are still 600 calories short of what your body needs to maintain current weight.

djeffreys10

Did I mention they are wrong?

I know this topic has been done to death, but for those of us new to mfp it's a strange concept. The issue, I believe, is that we need to define a calorie "deficit" for this purpose. I'm thinking that a caloric deficit will allow us to lose weight, however, if we go below our bmr needs, that's the actual "deficit" we're talking about?

For example, if my body requires 2,000 calories to maintain at my current weight and at my current activity level, and I drop to 1,000 cals, that's below my necessary bmr, that which my body needs to function properly. So in this case, I'm guessing my body won't make muscle because it's using everything it needs to function.

If I up the calories to 1300, which might be my bmr + 100 extra cals, then I could build muscle with that additional 100 cals. Is this too simple an analysis or do I have it right?

Thx for revisiting this; I get that you've done it again and again and appreciate your patience.

Laura

If 2000 is your maintenance, and you are eating 1999, you are in a deficit and you will not gain muscle. If you are eating 2000, you are at maintenance and you still will not gain muscle. If you are eating 2001 calories, you are at a surplus and will gain muscle with proper exerdise at, roughly, the rate of 1 lb every 3500 days.

ninerbuff

Did I mention they are wrong?

I know this topic has been done to death, but for those of us new to mfp it's a strange concept. The issue, I believe, is that we need to define a calorie "deficit" for this purpose. I'm thinking that a caloric deficit will allow us to lose weight, however, if we go below our bmr needs, that's the actual "deficit" we're talking about?

For example, if my body requires 2,000 calories to maintain at my current weight and at my current activity level, and I drop to 1,000 cals, that's below my necessary bmr, that which my body needs to function properly. So in this case, I'm guessing my body won't make muscle because it's using everything it needs to function.

If I up the calories to 1300, which might be my bmr + 100 extra cals, then I could build muscle with that additional 100 cals. Is this too simple an analysis or do I have it right?

Thx for revisiting this; I get that you've done it again and again and appreciate your patience.

Laura

The calories would need to exceed your TDEE (total daily energy expenditure). If not, then you're still in calorie deficit.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

mumx5

bump

Lift_hard_eat_big

Did I mention they are wrong?

I know this topic has been done to death, but for those of us new to mfp it's a strange concept. The issue, I believe, is that we need to define a calorie "deficit" for this purpose. I'm thinking that a caloric deficit will allow us to lose weight, however, if we go below our bmr needs, that's the actual "deficit" we're talking about?

For example, if my body requires 2,000 calories to maintain at my current weight and at my current activity level, and I drop to 1,000 cals, that's below my necessary bmr, that which my body needs to function properly. So in this case, I'm guessing my body won't make muscle because it's using everything it needs to function.

If I up the calories to 1300, which might be my bmr + 100 extra cals, then I could build muscle with that additional 100 cals. Is this too simple an analysis or do I have it right?

Thx for revisiting this; I get that you've done it again and again and appreciate your patience.

Laura

I think you may be confusing BMR with TDEE

cwolfman13

Did I mention they are wrong?

I know this topic has been done to death, but for those of us new to mfp it's a strange concept. The issue, I believe, is that we need to define a calorie "deficit" for this purpose. I'm thinking that a caloric deficit will allow us to lose weight, however, if we go below our bmr needs, that's the actual "deficit" we're talking about?

For example, if my body requires 2,000 calories to maintain at my current weight and at my current activity level, and I drop to 1,000 cals, that's below my necessary bmr, that which my body needs to function properly. So in this case, I'm guessing my body won't make muscle because it's using everything it needs to function.

If I up the calories to 1300, which might be my bmr + 100 extra cals, then I could build muscle with that additional 100 cals. Is this too simple an analysis or do I have it right?

Thx for revisiting this; I get that you've done it again and again and appreciate your patience.

Laura

Think of muscle as a relatively expensive commodity. If you have a deficit that is below your BMR, you are correct in your assessment that your body is using every calorie and every bit of fat just to function. You essentially do not have enough "currency" to even maintain that expensive commodity called muscle, so your body will burn more of it off in an effort to be more efficient.

If you need 2000 calories to maintain your body weight and have a reasonable deficit of calories to lose weight, but not so drastic as to be below your BMR...and you get adequate protein and do resistance training, you essentially have enough "currency" and savings (fat stores) to maintain a high level of bodily function, provide energy for light to moderate intensity workouts, and maintain LBM, including muscle....where the bulk of those calories for maintenance of muscle will go towards repair...there really won't be enough currency to purchase more muscle (i.e. gain muscle).

Now, if you eat at a surplus of calories and you are working out and lifting weights, etc...you have enough currency to provide for a high level of body operation, including moderate to high intensity workouts, putting up more weight, running faster and longer, etc. You have more than ample currency for muscle repair, so excess currency actually goes towards the purchase of more muscle. Be careful though...too much excess also leads to increased fat stores along with that muscle.

Hope that makes sense.

Leadfoot_Lewis

Think of muscle as a relatively expensive commodity. If you have a deficit that is below your BMR, you are correct in your assessment that your body is using every calorie and every bit of fat just to function. You essentially do not have enough "currency" to even maintain that expensive commodity called muscle, so your body will burn more of it off in an effort to be more efficient.

If you need 2000 calories to maintain your body weight and have a reasonable deficit of calories to lose weight, but not so drastic as to be below your BMR...and you get adequate protein and do resistance training, you essentially have enough "currency" and savings (fat stores) to maintain a high level of bodily function, provide energy for light to moderate intensity workouts, and maintain LBM, including muscle....where the bulk of those calories for maintenance of muscle will go towards repair...there really won't be enough currency to purchase more muscle (i.e. gain muscle).

Now, if you eat at a surplus of calories and you are working out and lifting weights, etc...you have enough currency to provide for a high level of body operation, including moderate to high intensity workouts, putting up more weight, running faster and longer, etc. You have more than ample currency for muscle repair, so excess currency actually goes towards the purchase of more muscle. Be careful though...too much excess also leads to increased fat stores along with that muscle.

Hope that makes sense.

Excellent post/explanation.

This is a great thread. One of the best ones I've seen on this forum.

ttippie2000

There's a whole bunch of people saying you can't gain muscle on a calorie deficit. Okay, well, I don't have enough knowledge to dispute that, but I do note that I'm setting 10-year powerlifting personal bests on a 1k+ calorie deficit right now. I have no idea how much of that comes from just getting back in training versus from muscle versus from the development of neuromuscular coordination.

What I do know is at the rate I'm losing weight I'll be cutting until October before I start trying to build a calorie surplus. Then I'll have a very different problem: With a 4,200- 4,400 calorie TDEE, how the hell do I eat 5,000 calories a day in a balanced, healthy way? I have no idea.

djeffreys10

There's a whole bunch of people saying you can't gain muscle on a calorie deficit. Okay, well, I don't have enough knowledge to dispute that, but I do note that I'm setting 10-year powerlifting personal bests on a 1k+ calorie deficit right now. I have no idea how much of that comes from just getting back in training versus from muscle versus from the development of neuromuscular coordination.

What I do know is at the rate I'm losing weight I'll be cutting until October before I start trying to build a calorie surplus. Then I'll have a very different problem: With a 4,200- 4,400 calorie TDEE, how the hell do I eat 5,000 calories a day in a balanced, healthy way? I have no idea.

On my first chest day back in September when I started this journey, I could only do 90 lbs on bench to get 3 sets of 8. Now I am working out with 165-175, and did a 1rm of 195 this week, which is a new personal record. Going for 200 next week. However, I have put on NO muscle, as I have been in a calorie deficit this whole time.