Creatine to help maintain muscle whilst in deficit, any point?

CM_73

Pretty much as title really, will it help?

MamaBirdBoss

No.

EvgeniZyntx

Not really. It's an effective supplement for strength training not necessarily for muscle retention. It does increase water weight, so if you do start it, expect a weight gain (but it's water).

Drink lots of water with it, if you use it.

Eat sufficient protein, keep cuts relatively small or short, strength train. <-- that preserves muscle.

CM_73

Superb, thanks both.

Hendrix7

Not really. It's an effective supplement for strength training not necessarily for muscle retention

are these mutually exclusive?

Creatine may allow you to perform slightly better in the gym and should slightly increase your bodyweight due to water retention, which again would allow you to lift slightly more weight.

more weight lifted - more muscle retained...........no?

Given it's extremely cheap and one of the only proven effective supplements, can't see why you wouldn't.

Brolympus

Nope. Make sure your calorie deficit is not too aggressive (15% or less), that you are training the same muscle groups at least 2x per week, and that you are still getting your required protein intake, and it will minimize muscle loss as you cut. Everything else is really not going to make a difference.

EvgeniZyntx

Hendrix7 wrote: »

Not really. It's an effective supplement for strength training not necessarily for muscle retention

are these mutually exclusive?

Creatine may allow you to perform slightly better in the gym and should slightly increase your bodyweight due to water retention, which again would allow you to lift slightly more weight.

more weight lifted - more muscle retained...........no?

Given it's extremely cheap and one of the only proven effective supplements, can't see why you wouldn't.

Not really - in terms of retention we are talking about slowing protein breakdown. Creatine doesn't create more muscle (there isn't more fiber ...) but modify cross sectional volume of muscle by a glycogen/water uptake (and affects energy availability...). Because stress load is dependent on cross section one can lift more (also the reason for the physiological pump effect, it's a response in need).

The stimulus to develop muscular tissue isn't based linearly on the amount lifted but on how the amount lifted damages existing tissue and activates signaling - myofibrillar hypertrophy (increased fibers) occurs from *progressive* change - so being able to progress in strength via creatine requires that you then continue to overload further. In short, it isn't the amount you can lift, it's how much a stress it is to the system. Initially, when loading with creatine, one is likely to *reduce* the tissue stress - look, ma, how much more I can lift easily!

But I admit that maybe, I could be off on that and would actually need to read up on it some more.

It is cheap.

For me, the reason not to take it is the additional uric acid load and the apparent relationship of creatinine (the breakdown metabolite of creatine) with gout. I'm at risk of attacks so I don't need that extra load, especially during a high protein consumption on my cuts. If you aren't at risk and drink a lot and your kidneys function well, not an issue. YMMV.

CM_73

EvgeniZyntx wrote: »

Hendrix7 wrote: »

Not really. It's an effective supplement for strength training not necessarily for muscle retention

are these mutually exclusive?

Creatine may allow you to perform slightly better in the gym and should slightly increase your bodyweight due to water retention, which again would allow you to lift slightly more weight.

more weight lifted - more muscle retained...........no?

Given it's extremely cheap and one of the only proven effective supplements, can't see why you wouldn't.

Not really - in terms of retention we are talking about slowing protein breakdown. Creatine doesn't create more muscle (there isn't more fiber ...) but modify cross sectional volume of muscle by a glycogen/water uptake (and affects energy availability...). Because stress load is dependent on cross section one can lift more (also the reason for the physiological pump effect, it's a response in need).

The stimulus to develop muscular tissue isn't based linearly on the amount lifted but on how the amount lifted damages existing tissue and activates signaling - myofibrillar hypertrophy (increased fibers) occurs from *progressive* change - so being able to progress in strength via creatine requires that you then continue to overload further. In short, it isn't the amount you can lift, it's how much a stress it is to the system. Initially, when loading with creatine, one is likely to *reduce* the tissue stress - look, ma, how much more I can lift easily!

But I admit that maybe, I could be off on that and would actually need to read up on it some more.

It is cheap.

For me, the reason not to take it is the additional uric acid load and the apparent relationship of creatinine (the breakdown metabolite of creatine) with gout. I'm at risk of attacks so I don't need that extra load, especially during a high protein consumption on my cuts. If you aren't at risk and drink a lot and your kidneys function well, not an issue. YMMV.

Detailed response, thanks for that!
My thinking was a far simplified version, that maintaining muscle is based upon trying to "convince" the body that the muscle is needed by keep tearing it, rather than the "build stronger" response that would come with a surplus of energy to rebuild. I'm no biologist!
I do already have the creatine, it came "free" with an order of something or other to bump up the order for free postage, but I'll save it for when I actually want to start building muscle.

SonyaCele

i've taken creatine in a deficit and a surplus and maint. I'm a girl, so i'm sure my body and muscles will be acting differently than you guys. But i have not noticed a difference in muscle building, Although i do notice a difference in immediate muscle strength while on creatine. And all this talk about not being able to build or maintain while in a deficit, i've yet to see any of that affect me. I lift heavy, all the time, and i'm constantly getting stronger regardless if i'm in a deficit or a surplus. I think there is so much more involved in the whole process than just the fuel in our system. But thats just me and my body.
I think if you use creatine to help you have solid strong workouts, while in a small deficit, you're gonna maintain. But You could have those same strong solid workouts without creatine.

Sam_I_Am77

CM_73 wrote: »

Pretty much as title really, will it help?

I think the answer to your question is really, we don't truly know. There is evidence to suggest it does but in one study the population was small and I'm not sure where other's have gotten their information from. Creatine is a very interesting supplement not just for it's affect on strength, but because there's evidence suggesting it improves cognitive ability, and some early study suggesting it can help preserve muscle mass in a deficit. Go to Google Scholar or something and do some research on it and see what you find. I haven't done any research on Creatine in about a year, so there could be new stuff out related to your subject.

jlaw_1992

Eat enough carbs as well. Low carb is good for some people for fast weight loss(dropping water weight and less hungry), but carbs are muscle-sparing. Plus they hold water which gives your muscles the illusion of being bigger, which is a plus.

Charliegottheruns

Creatine is a compound that provides energy, It helps muscles make and circulate ATP. ( energy-fuel for quick intense activity of short duration )
Creatine is made naturally by the liver from amino's; arginine, glycine, and methionine. You can get creatine through meat, fish, eggs, and dairy. It's mostly found in muscles, but some is stored in other ares of the body.

A misconception is that creatine is used for bulking, Nope ! It is primarily used for muscular energy, which supports power, strength, and stamina. You can use it with extra calories and resistance training to build muscle, but creatine alone has no calories and does not build muscle directly.

It also assists in drawing water to the muscle, drinking lots of water is key. The most popular type of creatine is Monohydrate, but creatine it also comes bonded to other molecules.

" IMO " Creatine Hydrochloride is the best, but on the down side its almost 3X's the cost of Monohydrate or AKG.
FYI: People who do not consume lots of meat or seafood can get huge benefits when initially started a creatine supplement.

senecarr

Technically? Probably yes.
Appreciably? Very probably no.

senecarr

CharlieRuns7225 wrote: »

Creatine is a compound that provides energy, It helps muscles make and circulate ATP. ( energy-fuel for quick intense activity of short duration )
Creatine is made naturally by the liver from amino's; arginine, glycine, and methionine. You can get creatine through meat, fish, eggs, and dairy. It's mostly found in muscles, but some is stored in other ares of the body.

A misconception is that creatine is used for bulking, Nope ! It is primarily used for muscular energy, which supports power, strength, and stamina. You can use it with extra calories and resistance training to build muscle, but creatine alone has no calories and does not build muscle directly.

It also assists in drawing water to the muscle, drinking lots of water is key. The most popular type of creatine is Monohydrate, but creatine it also comes bonded to other molecules.

" IMO " Creatine Hydrochloride is the best, but on the down side its almost 3X's the cost of Monohydrate or AKG.
FYI: People who do not consume lots of meat or seafood can get huge benefits when initially started a creatine supplement.

Creatine is creatine. Take 5g a day, after a week any form will result in the same skeletal muscle saturation.

Charliegottheruns

senecarr wrote: »

CharlieRuns7225 wrote: »

Creatine is a compound that provides energy, It helps muscles make and circulate ATP. ( energy-fuel for quick intense activity of short duration )
Creatine is made naturally by the liver from amino's; arginine, glycine, and methionine. You can get creatine through meat, fish, eggs, and dairy. It's mostly found in muscles, but some is stored in other ares of the body.

A misconception is that creatine is used for bulking, Nope ! It is primarily used for muscular energy, which supports power, strength, and stamina. You can use it with extra calories and resistance training to build muscle, but creatine alone has no calories and does not build muscle directly.

It also assists in drawing water to the muscle, drinking lots of water is key. The most popular type of creatine is Monohydrate, but creatine it also comes bonded to other molecules.

" IMO " Creatine Hydrochloride is the best, but on the down side its almost 3X's the cost of Monohydrate or AKG.
FYI: People who do not consume lots of meat or seafood can get huge benefits when initially started a creatine supplement.

Creatine is creatine. Take 5g a day, after a week any form will result in the same skeletal muscle saturation.

That's what you'll find on the internet, It was my opinion as I stated, and really doesn't require an argument.

senecarr

CharlieRuns7225 wrote: »

senecarr wrote: »

CharlieRuns7225 wrote: »

Creatine is a compound that provides energy, It helps muscles make and circulate ATP. ( energy-fuel for quick intense activity of short duration )
Creatine is made naturally by the liver from amino's; arginine, glycine, and methionine. You can get creatine through meat, fish, eggs, and dairy. It's mostly found in muscles, but some is stored in other ares of the body.

A misconception is that creatine is used for bulking, Nope ! It is primarily used for muscular energy, which supports power, strength, and stamina. You can use it with extra calories and resistance training to build muscle, but creatine alone has no calories and does not build muscle directly.

It also assists in drawing water to the muscle, drinking lots of water is key. The most popular type of creatine is Monohydrate, but creatine it also comes bonded to other molecules.

" IMO " Creatine Hydrochloride is the best, but on the down side its almost 3X's the cost of Monohydrate or AKG.
FYI: People who do not consume lots of meat or seafood can get huge benefits when initially started a creatine supplement.

Creatine is creatine. Take 5g a day, after a week any form will result in the same skeletal muscle saturation.

That's what you'll find on the internet, It was my opinion as I stated, and really doesn't require an argument.

If spending 3x works for you, more power to you then.

jessef593

I would look into some BCAA for intra workout along with throughout the day even maybe as a midnight drink if you wake up thirsty. It's Branch Chained Amino Acids, Leucine, ISO-leucine, and valine. Ranging anywhere from a 2:1:1 ratio up to a 4:1:1. They are effective in fighting catabolic effects of overtraining, lack of exercise, and calorie deficits. Often used for coma patients to preserve muscle mass at quite an astounding amount compared to patients who didn't receive any. The tri is also responsible for starting up protein synthesis, and jump starting repairs after intense training sessions. They are amazing if you find a good brand, available at any popeyes/gnc. I'd recommend them to anyone looking to preserve or even gain muscle mass. Very common among body builders during cut cycles

CM_73

Thanks all, really appreciate the input. Some very interesting reading out there, as ever, some of it conflicting!
What I can't find though, are any real negatives to at least giving it a try.
I'll wait until after reset day (Sunday) though, as I'm not yet emotionally strong enough to see that water weight jump on the scale!
I'll also start taking biceps measurements (just because they're easy) to try and quantify things a bit, and will report back in a couple of Months if anything interesting happens.

I will look into BCAA's in the future, at the moment I just want to keep things simple and I'm not a bodybuilder (although my goals are similar to a cut)

Thanks again,

coachjschroth

Directly? Probably not. Creatine has nothing to do with building or maintaining muscle. We take creatine to maintain a high level of creatine phosphate within the muscle. Creatine phosphate is used in the phosohagen system to produce ATP during short-term, anaerobic, high intensity work (2-10seconds). Creatine allows you to lift slightly heavier loads or allows you to maintain a specific work intensity for a slightly longer period of time. So indirectly, it may or may not affect hypertrophy.

MamaBirdBoss

It can also stop you up. Ahem.

senecarr

MamaBirdBoss wrote: »

It can also stop you up. Ahem.

Honestly the first time I'd heard of that. Does that hold true if hydration is adequate? At least the water retention removing water from the digestive system is the first mechanism that comes to mind if that is an issue.

999tigger

+1 to all the people are noting the difference between a direct and indirect influence.

barryplumber

There are people that may agree to disagree but you will think that your muscles are shrinking a bit in a couple weeks after you stop taking creatine. Not to fear it's not your muscles shrinking it's your muscles losing the water they had retained. So once you stop taking it then you can start ripping those water logged muscles. This is just a pre warning so you dont get discouraged when you notice shrinkage.

EvgeniZyntx

No negs for me, if you don't have renal clearance issues, gout risk, etc ....