My Bulk Continues

nerdygymrat9

Hey everyone! I had previously made a post about a 12-week bulk attempt I was doing during the school year using Body Beast. Well now, I am still bulking and doing Jim Stoppani's Shortcut to Size program from bodybuilding.com and I really like this program! It makes me feel stronger. Not really happy with how my weight has been going up a lot in these last 4 or 5 weeks though. I have not increased my calories in weeks in fact I am eating a little less then I was back in school when I was gaining .5 pounds to 1 pound a week (not every week but for the most part). Not it seems like I just keep gaining closer to a pound and a half a week.

Anyway, I am a little over 4 months into bulking and I thought I would post some pictures and hopefully get some feedback since I am really not sure what I should do right now. I was hoping to try bulking a little bit longer, at least until mid-July but I do not want to get too fat and have to cut a long time. I am enclosing a picture from when I started my bulk, how I looked when I started Shortcut to Size and my current progress as of today. The first pic is a collage of all the aforementioned progress points (left is the beginning in Feb. and the right is the latest picture). The rest will consist of pictures from the latter two (when I started STS and my current point). Sorry if today's progress photos are kind of dark as opposed to the ones from a month ago!

Here are my stats from a little over 4 months ago and then the ones of today:

Starting stats:

143 pounds

Waist: 32 inches
Chest: 35.75 inches
Right Arm (flexed): 12.625 inches
Left Arm (flexed): 12.625 inches
Right Thigh: 21.125 inches
Left Thigh: 21 inches
Neck 14.875 inches
Hips: 36.375 inches

Today's stats:

157 pounds

Waist: 33.5 inches
Chest: 38.875 inches
Right Arm (flexed): 13.75 inches
Left Arm (flexed): 13.75 inches
Right Thigh : 23 inches
Left Thigh: 23 inches
Neck 15.25 inches
Hips: 38 inches

ndj1979

if you are gaining 1.5 pounds a week then you probably need to dial your calories back by about 250 a day.

Additionally, based on your profile pictures it may be time to start cutting, as your body fat appears to approaching upper 18% range, and cutting down would help to expose some of the muscle that you have added.

If you want to go the cut route then maybe shoot for .5 pound per week loss.

that is my .02

jmule24

Recomp if you have the paitence....... cut for 8-10 weeks if you don't, then bulk again........ It takes time my friend! I remember when I was at that same physique just a couple of years ago. Keep on working hard, you're doing well!

nerdygymrat9

Thanks for the advice guys! Will probably start a cut once this week is over!

nerdygymrat9

bump

jmule24

@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"

My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.

Am I correct?

juggernaut1974

jmule24 wrote: »

@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"

My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.

Am I correct?

How is he figuring out lean gains vs body weight gains?

ETA: OP feel free to answer too...not meaning to talk over you.

nerdygymrat9

@ceoverturf, it is totally fine and thank you for the consideration! jmule asked me for my weight from before and after and then took that and multiplied by (1-BF%) then subtracted final number minus initial number. He was basing my body fat off of my Omron device that I have though I again believe that it is not accurate and in fact think the number I am getting is fairly low (around 15.5% currently) when I think I am more in the 17-18% range (though I could be wrong). Point of this post was I was not sure if I should continue bulking or cut since I have gained a fair amount of fat in this last month alone.

ndj1979

jmule24 wrote: »

@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"

My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.

Am I correct?

sorry, I just saw this.

How did you figure out the .6 lbm gain per pound of BW?

two things:

1. He is gainig about 1.5 pound per week, so at the minimum I think he should scale that back to one pound per week gain.
2. form the posted pictures it looks like he has over shot his bulk a bit and is in the 18% bod fat range. My understanding is that as one gets closer to 20% it is going to be harder to gain mass, and the ratio of fat to muscle gain will tilt towards fat over muscle.
3. Sorry three things I think if he did a 12 week cut and then went back to the bulk he would see some better gains. It also appears that mentally he wants to lose some fat…

auddii

I'm going to defer any advice about bulking vs. cutting to those more experienced, but just wanted to say great job so far. You can really see the progress in your back and shoulders.

JoshLibby

ndj1979 wrote: »

jmule24 wrote: »

@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"

My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.

Am I correct?

sorry, I just saw this.

How did you figure out the .6 lbm gain per pound of BW?

two things:

1. He is gainig about 1.5 pound per week, so at the minimum I think he should scale that back to one pound per week gain.
2. form the posted pictures it looks like he has over shot his bulk a bit and is in the 18% bod fat range. My understanding is that as one gets closer to 20% it is going to be harder to gain mass, and the ratio of fat to muscle gain will tilt towards fat over muscle.
3. Sorry three things I think if he did a 12 week cut and then went back to the bulk he would see some better gains. It also appears that mentally he wants to lose some fat…

Also agree with what you're saying. Although, I don't believe he needed to bulk yet, he has no foundation of muscle. In my opinion he skipped a step. If he was to cut right now he would still be skinny with barely any muscle.

ndj1979

JoshLibby wrote: »

ndj1979 wrote: »

jmule24 wrote: »

@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"

My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.

Am I correct?

sorry, I just saw this.

How did you figure out the .6 lbm gain per pound of BW?

two things:

1. He is gainig about 1.5 pound per week, so at the minimum I think he should scale that back to one pound per week gain.
2. form the posted pictures it looks like he has over shot his bulk a bit and is in the 18% bod fat range. My understanding is that as one gets closer to 20% it is going to be harder to gain mass, and the ratio of fat to muscle gain will tilt towards fat over muscle.
3. Sorry three things I think if he did a 12 week cut and then went back to the bulk he would see some better gains. It also appears that mentally he wants to lose some fat…

Also agree with what you're saying. Although, I don't believe he needed to bulk yet, he has no foundation of muscle. In my opinion he skipped a step. If he was to cut right now he would still be skinny with barely any muscle.

Hmmm what would you recommend then…recomp? or slow cut at .5 for 12 weeks?

If you look at his very first pick to now he had added some mass…I think a 12 week cut would show that and ten bulk again …

jmule24

ndj1979 wrote: »

jmule24 wrote: »

@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"

My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.

Am I correct?

sorry, I just saw this.

How did you figure out the .6 lbm gain per pound of BW?

two things:

1. He is gainig about 1.5 pound per week, so at the minimum I think he should scale that back to one pound per week gain.
2. form the posted pictures it looks like he has over shot his bulk a bit and is in the 18% bod fat range. My understanding is that as one gets closer to 20% it is going to be harder to gain mass, and the ratio of fat to muscle gain will tilt towards fat over muscle.
3. Sorry three things I think if he did a 12 week cut and then went back to the bulk he would see some better gains. It also appears that mentally he wants to lose some fat…

No problem Nick, I knew you'd eventually see it. :-) I will address each of your 3 points now.....

1. 4 months of bulking is 16 weeks. He had gained a total of 14 lbs of BW. Based on what he shared with me he started at 12.3% BF and is now at 15.3% per his OMRON device.

143lbs * (1-12.3%) = 125.4 lbs LBM
157lbs * (1-15.3%) = 133.0 lbs LBM

Increased LBM by 8.4 lbs. (by his progress pictures, he has definitely added muscle to his frame) So 8.4 lbs / 14 lbs = 0.60 lbs LBM / 1lb BW.

So my recommendation to his based on knowing his "stats" was he could still continue to bulk at a 250-350 calorie surplus for another 4 weeks if he wanted to and measure his progress again. If he's not fallen below 0.5 LBM gain than why should he quit bulking other than he isn't happy with what he sees in the mirror????

2. The "evidence" out there of it becoming harder for muscle gain is for experienced elite trained athletes. I've always questioned the 15% "rule." Even Lyle Mcdonald says it can be done you just need to consistently track progress after the 15% mark. No big deal......

3. After talking with him at length via PMs, I think at this point he mentally is ready to cut and that is completely fine. I agree with your recommendation of 0.5 lb / week cut. The last thing we wants to do is cut into his gains. In my opinion part of the reason he doesn't look like he has progressed as much is his LBM is still relatively low for his total BW. If I got down to 157 lbs I'd be around 10-11% BF which is going to give me a much more visible muscular look......

Either way, he's getting results and I'm happy to see he's got the right attitude about it!

keithcw_the_first

jmule24 wrote: »

ndj1979 wrote: »

jmule24 wrote: »

@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"

My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.

Am I correct?

sorry, I just saw this.

How did you figure out the .6 lbm gain per pound of BW?

two things:

1. He is gainig about 1.5 pound per week, so at the minimum I think he should scale that back to one pound per week gain.
2. form the posted pictures it looks like he has over shot his bulk a bit and is in the 18% bod fat range. My understanding is that as one gets closer to 20% it is going to be harder to gain mass, and the ratio of fat to muscle gain will tilt towards fat over muscle.
3. Sorry three things I think if he did a 12 week cut and then went back to the bulk he would see some better gains. It also appears that mentally he wants to lose some fat…

No problem Nick, I knew you'd eventually see it. :-) I will address each of your 3 points now.....

1. 4 months of bulking is 16 weeks. He had gained a total of 14 lbs of BW. Based on what he shared with me he started at 12.3% BF and is now at 15.3% per his OMRON device.

143lbs * (1-12.3%) = 125.4 lbs LBM
157lbs * (1-15.3%) = 133.0 lbs LBM

Increased LBM by 8.4 lbs. (by his progress pictures, he has definitely added muscle to his frame) So 8.4 lbs / 14 lbs = 0.60 lbs LBM / 1lb BW.

So my recommendation to his based on knowing his "stats" was he could still continue to bulk at a 250-350 calorie surplus for another 4 weeks if he wanted to and measure his progress again. If he's not fallen below 0.5 LBM gain than why should he quit bulking other than he isn't happy with what he sees in the mirror????

2. The "evidence" out there of it becoming harder for muscle gain is for experienced elite trained athletes. I've always questioned the 15% "rule." Even Lyle Mcdonald says it can be done you just need to consistently track progress after the 15% mark. No big deal......

3. After talking with him at length via PMs, I think at this point he mentally is ready to cut and that is completely fine. I agree with your recommendation of 0.5 lb / week cut. The last thing we wants to do is cut into his gains. In my opinion part of the reason he doesn't look like he has progressed as much is his LBM is still relatively low for his total BW. If I got down to 157 lbs I'd be around 10-11% BF which is going to give me a much more visible muscular look......

Either way, he's getting results and I'm happy to see he's got the right attitude about it!

Is .5 lb/week overly cautious for a cut?

jmule24

keithcw_the_first wrote: »

jmule24 wrote: »

ndj1979 wrote: »

jmule24 wrote: »

@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"

My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.

Am I correct?

sorry, I just saw this.

How did you figure out the .6 lbm gain per pound of BW?

two things:

1. He is gainig about 1.5 pound per week, so at the minimum I think he should scale that back to one pound per week gain.
2. form the posted pictures it looks like he has over shot his bulk a bit and is in the 18% bod fat range. My understanding is that as one gets closer to 20% it is going to be harder to gain mass, and the ratio of fat to muscle gain will tilt towards fat over muscle.
3. Sorry three things I think if he did a 12 week cut and then went back to the bulk he would see some better gains. It also appears that mentally he wants to lose some fat…

No problem Nick, I knew you'd eventually see it. :-) I will address each of your 3 points now.....

1. 4 months of bulking is 16 weeks. He had gained a total of 14 lbs of BW. Based on what he shared with me he started at 12.3% BF and is now at 15.3% per his OMRON device.

143lbs * (1-12.3%) = 125.4 lbs LBM
157lbs * (1-15.3%) = 133.0 lbs LBM

Increased LBM by 8.4 lbs. (by his progress pictures, he has definitely added muscle to his frame) So 8.4 lbs / 14 lbs = 0.60 lbs LBM / 1lb BW.

So my recommendation to his based on knowing his "stats" was he could still continue to bulk at a 250-350 calorie surplus for another 4 weeks if he wanted to and measure his progress again. If he's not fallen below 0.5 LBM gain than why should he quit bulking other than he isn't happy with what he sees in the mirror????

2. The "evidence" out there of it becoming harder for muscle gain is for experienced elite trained athletes. I've always questioned the 15% "rule." Even Lyle Mcdonald says it can be done you just need to consistently track progress after the 15% mark. No big deal......

3. After talking with him at length via PMs, I think at this point he mentally is ready to cut and that is completely fine. I agree with your recommendation of 0.5 lb / week cut. The last thing we wants to do is cut into his gains. In my opinion part of the reason he doesn't look like he has progressed as much is his LBM is still relatively low for his total BW. If I got down to 157 lbs I'd be around 10-11% BF which is going to give me a much more visible muscular look......

Either way, he's getting results and I'm happy to see he's got the right attitude about it!

Is .5 lb/week overly cautious for a cut?

No, the thought behind it is that you're still making a good amount of progress, getting a good amount of calories, and hopefully able to progress/maintain your strength throughout. My last cut I averaged .75 lbs / week and I found that to be my sweet spot. Of the 9 lbs I lost only 1lb was from LBM. To me, that is great success.

slideaway1

Hi mate, well done and thanks for sharing progress. What's your height? 157lbs is still pretty small, so I'm not sure about the advice to cut. I would sit at maintenance, keep lifting heavy and keep protein high. Some people can make great progress being on a slow bulk for years. I have never cut and went from 169lbs to 200lbs in a just over a year whilst maintaining 15% body fat (6Ft tall).

Hornsby

Dude needs a base of muscle in my opinion. I would recomp for a few months. I'm bias to recomps though.

slideaway1

Also, you will know when a slow or clean bulk is going well when the body fat % is not increasing dramatically, Clothes etc start feeling tighter across the chest,arms, back etc but waist size should remain the same. I have put on 30lbs on the scale, but I'm still 32inch waist (which has never increased whilst bulking).

Hornsby

slideaway1 wrote: »

Also, you will know when a slow or clean bulk is going well when the body fat % is not increasing dramatically, Clothes etc start feeling tighter across the chest,arms, back etc but waist size should remain the same. I have put on 30lbs on the scale, but I'm still 32inch waist (which has never increased whilst bulking).

Wouldn't that be determined by genetics though? Not everyone holds fat in the same place.

nerdygymrat9

slideaway1 wrote: »

Hi mate, well done and thanks for sharing progress. What's your height? 157lbs is still pretty small, so I'm not sure about the advice to cut. I would sit at maintenance, keep lifting heavy and keep protein high. Some people can make great progress being on a slow bulk for years. I have never cut and went from 169lbs to 200lbs in a just over a year whilst maintaining 15% body fat (6Ft tall).

Hey man, I am about 5'7"ish. And yeah I had attempted to go slow but I don't know I guess I messed up somewhere along the way and accumulated way more fat then I would have liked. The first two or three months I thought I was making great progress since I was going up slowly and my waistline did not move much in that time but I think after that I am not sure what happened to be honest but I started gaining a lot more fat in my midsection.

jdscrubs32

collegenerd20 wrote: »

slideaway1 wrote: »

Hi mate, well done and thanks for sharing progress. What's your height? 157lbs is still pretty small, so I'm not sure about the advice to cut. I would sit at maintenance, keep lifting heavy and keep protein high. Some people can make great progress being on a slow bulk for years. I have never cut and went from 169lbs to 200lbs in a just over a year whilst maintaining 15% body fat (6Ft tall).

Hey man, I am about 5'7"ish. And yeah I had attempted to go slow but I don't know I guess I messed up somewhere along the way and accumulated way more fat then I would have liked. The first two or three months I thought I was making great progress since I was going up slowly and my waistline did not move much in that time but I think after that I am not sure what happened to be honest but I started gaining a lot more fat in my midsection.

Did you change what you were eating? I'm more or less what @slideaway1 described in that my clothes etc start feeling tighter across the chest,arms, back etc but waist size has more or less remained the same. I've been doing this for the past 8 months or so. Have gone from 55kg/121lbs to 66kg/145lbs at the moment. My BF has increased but mine was very low to begin with. However throughout that time, I stayed eating more or less the same stuff with a few changes. Maybe have a look at what you are eating and see if anything change from what you were having in the first two to three month to what you had after that.

ndj1979

jmule24 wrote: »

ndj1979 wrote: »

jmule24 wrote: »

@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"

My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.

Am I correct?

sorry, I just saw this.

How did you figure out the .6 lbm gain per pound of BW?

two things:

1. He is gainig about 1.5 pound per week, so at the minimum I think he should scale that back to one pound per week gain.
2. form the posted pictures it looks like he has over shot his bulk a bit and is in the 18% bod fat range. My understanding is that as one gets closer to 20% it is going to be harder to gain mass, and the ratio of fat to muscle gain will tilt towards fat over muscle.
3. Sorry three things I think if he did a 12 week cut and then went back to the bulk he would see some better gains. It also appears that mentally he wants to lose some fat…

No problem Nick, I knew you'd eventually see it. :-) I will address each of your 3 points now.....

1. 4 months of bulking is 16 weeks. He had gained a total of 14 lbs of BW. Based on what he shared with me he started at 12.3% BF and is now at 15.3% per his OMRON device.

143lbs * (1-12.3%) = 125.4 lbs LBM
157lbs * (1-15.3%) = 133.0 lbs LBM

Increased LBM by 8.4 lbs. (by his progress pictures, he has definitely added muscle to his frame) So 8.4 lbs / 14 lbs = 0.60 lbs LBM / 1lb BW.

So my recommendation to his based on knowing his "stats" was he could still continue to bulk at a 250-350 calorie surplus for another 4 weeks if he wanted to and measure his progress again. If he's not fallen below 0.5 LBM gain than why should he quit bulking other than he isn't happy with what he sees in the mirror????

2. The "evidence" out there of it becoming harder for muscle gain is for experienced elite trained athletes. I've always questioned the 15% "rule." Even Lyle Mcdonald says it can be done you just need to consistently track progress after the 15% mark. No big deal......

3. After talking with him at length via PMs, I think at this point he mentally is ready to cut and that is completely fine. I agree with your recommendation of 0.5 lb / week cut. The last thing we wants to do is cut into his gains. In my opinion part of the reason he doesn't look like he has progressed as much is his LBM is still relatively low for his total BW. If I got down to 157 lbs I'd be around 10-11% BF which is going to give me a much more visible muscular look......

Either way, he's getting results and I'm happy to see he's got the right attitude about it!

I see what you are saying. I guess I would be a little wary of basing that on a hand held device as those are not that accurate; however, if you use it as a baseline then it does make sense to go by those numbers.

to point three - you could have a point there, that he has not put on enough LBM for it to be showing and it gives the appearance of more body fat. I think that being 19 years old if he ran about three bulk/cut cycles he would have some nice gains over the course of the year...

man, I wish I was 19 again ...lolz

slideaway1

Hornsby wrote: »

slideaway1 wrote: »

Also, you will know when a slow or clean bulk is going well when the body fat % is not increasing dramatically, Clothes etc start feeling tighter across the chest,arms, back etc but waist size should remain the same. I have put on 30lbs on the scale, but I'm still 32inch waist (which has never increased whilst bulking).

Wouldn't that be determined by genetics though? Not everyone holds fat in the same place.

Yeah, it will definitely play a big part. It was just a rule of thumb that I've read and makes sense to me and I used as a way of monitoring my bulk. I think I would have definatly panicked and started to cut if I saw that my waist (gut etc) growing faster than the rest of me. I think by slowly clean bulking you can clearly see the progress and can make little adjustments to training and diet along the way whilst physiologically being able to get to grips with the fact that your body is changing and not being scared of the scale increasing.

ndj1979

keithcw_the_first wrote: »

jmule24 wrote: »

ndj1979 wrote: »

jmule24 wrote: »

@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"

My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.

Am I correct?

sorry, I just saw this.

How did you figure out the .6 lbm gain per pound of BW?

two things:

1. He is gainig about 1.5 pound per week, so at the minimum I think he should scale that back to one pound per week gain.
2. form the posted pictures it looks like he has over shot his bulk a bit and is in the 18% bod fat range. My understanding is that as one gets closer to 20% it is going to be harder to gain mass, and the ratio of fat to muscle gain will tilt towards fat over muscle.
3. Sorry three things I think if he did a 12 week cut and then went back to the bulk he would see some better gains. It also appears that mentally he wants to lose some fat…

No problem Nick, I knew you'd eventually see it. :-) I will address each of your 3 points now.....

1. 4 months of bulking is 16 weeks. He had gained a total of 14 lbs of BW. Based on what he shared with me he started at 12.3% BF and is now at 15.3% per his OMRON device.

143lbs * (1-12.3%) = 125.4 lbs LBM
157lbs * (1-15.3%) = 133.0 lbs LBM

Increased LBM by 8.4 lbs. (by his progress pictures, he has definitely added muscle to his frame) So 8.4 lbs / 14 lbs = 0.60 lbs LBM / 1lb BW.

So my recommendation to his based on knowing his "stats" was he could still continue to bulk at a 250-350 calorie surplus for another 4 weeks if he wanted to and measure his progress again. If he's not fallen below 0.5 LBM gain than why should he quit bulking other than he isn't happy with what he sees in the mirror????

2. The "evidence" out there of it becoming harder for muscle gain is for experienced elite trained athletes. I've always questioned the 15% "rule." Even Lyle Mcdonald says it can be done you just need to consistently track progress after the 15% mark. No big deal......

3. After talking with him at length via PMs, I think at this point he mentally is ready to cut and that is completely fine. I agree with your recommendation of 0.5 lb / week cut. The last thing we wants to do is cut into his gains. In my opinion part of the reason he doesn't look like he has progressed as much is his LBM is still relatively low for his total BW. If I got down to 157 lbs I'd be around 10-11% BF which is going to give me a much more visible muscular look......

Either way, he's getting results and I'm happy to see he's got the right attitude about it!

Is .5 lb/week overly cautious for a cut?

for the normal person that has ran a few bulk/cut cycles and has more mass then yes it would be. However, OP started out pretty skinny and did not have much muscle to begin with; so we are thinking .5 pound a week loss to drop off the fat and retain as much LBM as possible, and then he can bulk again in 12 weeks. Honestly, the fat should come off pretty quickly....

when I did my cut I did 1 pound a week loss for about three months and have now transitioned to .5 and the maintanence in august...

nerdygymrat9

ndj1979 wrote: »

jmule24 wrote: »

ndj1979 wrote: »

jmule24 wrote: »

@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"

My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.

Am I correct?

sorry, I just saw this.

How did you figure out the .6 lbm gain per pound of BW?

two things:

1. He is gainig about 1.5 pound per week, so at the minimum I think he should scale that back to one pound per week gain.
2. form the posted pictures it looks like he has over shot his bulk a bit and is in the 18% bod fat range. My understanding is that as one gets closer to 20% it is going to be harder to gain mass, and the ratio of fat to muscle gain will tilt towards fat over muscle.
3. Sorry three things I think if he did a 12 week cut and then went back to the bulk he would see some better gains. It also appears that mentally he wants to lose some fat…

No problem Nick, I knew you'd eventually see it. :-) I will address each of your 3 points now.....

1. 4 months of bulking is 16 weeks. He had gained a total of 14 lbs of BW. Based on what he shared with me he started at 12.3% BF and is now at 15.3% per his OMRON device.

143lbs * (1-12.3%) = 125.4 lbs LBM
157lbs * (1-15.3%) = 133.0 lbs LBM

Increased LBM by 8.4 lbs. (by his progress pictures, he has definitely added muscle to his frame) So 8.4 lbs / 14 lbs = 0.60 lbs LBM / 1lb BW.

So my recommendation to his based on knowing his "stats" was he could still continue to bulk at a 250-350 calorie surplus for another 4 weeks if he wanted to and measure his progress again. If he's not fallen below 0.5 LBM gain than why should he quit bulking other than he isn't happy with what he sees in the mirror????

2. The "evidence" out there of it becoming harder for muscle gain is for experienced elite trained athletes. I've always questioned the 15% "rule." Even Lyle Mcdonald says it can be done you just need to consistently track progress after the 15% mark. No big deal......

3. After talking with him at length via PMs, I think at this point he mentally is ready to cut and that is completely fine. I agree with your recommendation of 0.5 lb / week cut. The last thing we wants to do is cut into his gains. In my opinion part of the reason he doesn't look like he has progressed as much is his LBM is still relatively low for his total BW. If I got down to 157 lbs I'd be around 10-11% BF which is going to give me a much more visible muscular look......

Either way, he's getting results and I'm happy to see he's got the right attitude about it!

I see what you are saying. I guess I would be a little wary of basing that on a hand held device as those are not that accurate; however, if you use it as a baseline then it does make sense to go by those numbers.

to point three - you could have a point there, that he has not put on enough LBM for it to be showing and it gives the appearance of more body fat. I think that being 19 years old if he ran about three bulk/cut cycles he would have some nice gains over the course of the year...

man, I wish I was 19 again ...lolz

Nick, I just turned 21 last month, haha I am not 19 years old. So you are saying if I cut now, do a longer bulk, and cut again by next summer I could look decent?

nerdygymrat9

jdscrubs32 wrote: »

collegenerd20 wrote: »

slideaway1 wrote: »

Hi mate, well done and thanks for sharing progress. What's your height? 157lbs is still pretty small, so I'm not sure about the advice to cut. I would sit at maintenance, keep lifting heavy and keep protein high. Some people can make great progress being on a slow bulk for years. I have never cut and went from 169lbs to 200lbs in a just over a year whilst maintaining 15% body fat (6Ft tall).

Hey man, I am about 5'7"ish. And yeah I had attempted to go slow but I don't know I guess I messed up somewhere along the way and accumulated way more fat then I would have liked. The first two or three months I thought I was making great progress since I was going up slowly and my waistline did not move much in that time but I think after that I am not sure what happened to be honest but I started gaining a lot more fat in my midsection.

Did you change what you were eating? I'm more or less what @slideaway1 described in that my clothes etc start feeling tighter across the chest,arms, back etc but waist size has more or less remained the same. I've been doing this for the past 8 months or so. Have gone from 55kg/121lbs to 66kg/145lbs at the moment. My BF has increased but mine was very low to begin with. However throughout that time, I stayed eating more or less the same stuff with a few changes. Maybe have a look at what you are eating and see if anything change from what you were having in the first two to three month to what you had after that.

There was one week where I sort of went crazy on food during my final exams week and could not hit the gym so I ended up gaining like 2 pounds (before than averaging about half a pound to 1 pound a week). But I had tried to eat a little lower than what I was eating before that final exams week (had been eating around 3300 dropped it to 3100-3150 over the course of a few weeks but it just seemed that the weight gain kept coming in full force sadly).

Hornsby

I know bulk/cut cycles are often the answer, but at 21 years old, I would eat at maintenance or slightly below and lift. You will get some gains at your age. In my opinion, you do not have the base for bulk and cut cycles just yet. You are putting the cart before the horse in my opinion.

ndj1979

collegenerd20 wrote: »

ndj1979 wrote: »

jmule24 wrote: »

ndj1979 wrote: »

jmule24 wrote: »

@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"

My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.

Am I correct?

sorry, I just saw this.

How did you figure out the .6 lbm gain per pound of BW?

two things:

1. He is gainig about 1.5 pound per week, so at the minimum I think he should scale that back to one pound per week gain.
2. form the posted pictures it looks like he has over shot his bulk a bit and is in the 18% bod fat range. My understanding is that as one gets closer to 20% it is going to be harder to gain mass, and the ratio of fat to muscle gain will tilt towards fat over muscle.
3. Sorry three things I think if he did a 12 week cut and then went back to the bulk he would see some better gains. It also appears that mentally he wants to lose some fat…

No problem Nick, I knew you'd eventually see it. :-) I will address each of your 3 points now.....

1. 4 months of bulking is 16 weeks. He had gained a total of 14 lbs of BW. Based on what he shared with me he started at 12.3% BF and is now at 15.3% per his OMRON device.

143lbs * (1-12.3%) = 125.4 lbs LBM
157lbs * (1-15.3%) = 133.0 lbs LBM

Increased LBM by 8.4 lbs. (by his progress pictures, he has definitely added muscle to his frame) So 8.4 lbs / 14 lbs = 0.60 lbs LBM / 1lb BW.

So my recommendation to his based on knowing his "stats" was he could still continue to bulk at a 250-350 calorie surplus for another 4 weeks if he wanted to and measure his progress again. If he's not fallen below 0.5 LBM gain than why should he quit bulking other than he isn't happy with what he sees in the mirror????

2. The "evidence" out there of it becoming harder for muscle gain is for experienced elite trained athletes. I've always questioned the 15% "rule." Even Lyle Mcdonald says it can be done you just need to consistently track progress after the 15% mark. No big deal......

3. After talking with him at length via PMs, I think at this point he mentally is ready to cut and that is completely fine. I agree with your recommendation of 0.5 lb / week cut. The last thing we wants to do is cut into his gains. In my opinion part of the reason he doesn't look like he has progressed as much is his LBM is still relatively low for his total BW. If I got down to 157 lbs I'd be around 10-11% BF which is going to give me a much more visible muscular look......

Either way, he's getting results and I'm happy to see he's got the right attitude about it!

I see what you are saying. I guess I would be a little wary of basing that on a hand held device as those are not that accurate; however, if you use it as a baseline then it does make sense to go by those numbers.

to point three - you could have a point there, that he has not put on enough LBM for it to be showing and it gives the appearance of more body fat. I think that being 19 years old if he ran about three bulk/cut cycles he would have some nice gains over the course of the year...

man, I wish I was 19 again ...lolz

Nick, I just turned 21 last month, haha I am not 19 years old. So you are saying if I cut now, do a longer bulk, and cut again by next summer I could look decent?

my bad bro!

OK - I wish I was 21 again ..even better!

What I am saying is that in your 20's you are primed for gains because your testosterone production is off the charts so take advantage of that.

yes, I think if you cut for 12 weeks through summer, and then bulk through fall/winter, and cut in eary spring you will be happy with results.

so cut from June to September
bulk September to February 1
cut from February to April

see where you are in April.

I am going to say this again but you really need to run a good beginner program like strong lifts, new rules, starting strength etc....but that is my opinion..

I would also be curious as to what everyone else's opinion on this is.

Hornsby

Nick, you still doing the power, muscle, burn program?

jdscrubs32

collegenerd20 wrote: »

jdscrubs32 wrote: »

collegenerd20 wrote: »

slideaway1 wrote: »

Hi mate, well done and thanks for sharing progress. What's your height? 157lbs is still pretty small, so I'm not sure about the advice to cut. I would sit at maintenance, keep lifting heavy and keep protein high. Some people can make great progress being on a slow bulk for years. I have never cut and went from 169lbs to 200lbs in a just over a year whilst maintaining 15% body fat (6Ft tall).

Hey man, I am about 5'7"ish. And yeah I had attempted to go slow but I don't know I guess I messed up somewhere along the way and accumulated way more fat then I would have liked. The first two or three months I thought I was making great progress since I was going up slowly and my waistline did not move much in that time but I think after that I am not sure what happened to be honest but I started gaining a lot more fat in my midsection.

Did you change what you were eating? I'm more or less what @slideaway1 described in that my clothes etc start feeling tighter across the chest,arms, back etc but waist size has more or less remained the same. I've been doing this for the past 8 months or so. Have gone from 55kg/121lbs to 66kg/145lbs at the moment. My BF has increased but mine was very low to begin with. However throughout that time, I stayed eating more or less the same stuff with a few changes. Maybe have a look at what you are eating and see if anything change from what you were having in the first two to three month to what you had after that.

There was one week where I sort of went crazy on food during my final exams week and could not hit the gym so I ended up gaining like 2 pounds (before than averaging about half a pound to 1 pound a week). But I had tried to eat a little lower than what I was eating before that final exams week (had been eating around 3300 dropped it to 3100-3150 over the course of a few weeks but it just seemed that the weight gain kept coming in full force sadly).

I'm no expert but maybe when you went crazy in that week and gained 2 pounds, which may have been mostly fat, the rest of you, as in the growth of muscles will slowly catch up and everything will balance out. Again I'm no expert.

ndj1979

Hornsby wrote: »

I know bulk/cut cycles are often the answer, but at 21 years old, I would eat at maintenance or slightly below and lift. You will get some gains at your age. In my opinion, you do not have the base for bulk and cut cycles just yet. You are putting the cart before the horse in my opinion.

correct me if I am wrong...but I thought he would want to do a recomp when he had added some mass through a few bulk/cut cycles..???? or am I way off base here?