My Bulk Continues
Replies
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collegenerd20 wrote: »@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"
My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.
Am I correct?
sorry, I just saw this.
How did you figure out the .6 lbm gain per pound of BW?
two things:
1. He is gainig about 1.5 pound per week, so at the minimum I think he should scale that back to one pound per week gain.
2. form the posted pictures it looks like he has over shot his bulk a bit and is in the 18% bod fat range. My understanding is that as one gets closer to 20% it is going to be harder to gain mass, and the ratio of fat to muscle gain will tilt towards fat over muscle.
3. Sorry three things
I think if he did a 12 week cut and then went back to the bulk he would see some better gains. It also appears that mentally he wants to lose some fat…
No problem Nick, I knew you'd eventually see it. :-) I will address each of your 3 points now.....
1. 4 months of bulking is 16 weeks. He had gained a total of 14 lbs of BW. Based on what he shared with me he started at 12.3% BF and is now at 15.3% per his OMRON device.
143lbs * (1-12.3%) = 125.4 lbs LBM
157lbs * (1-15.3%) = 133.0 lbs LBM
Increased LBM by 8.4 lbs. (by his progress pictures, he has definitely added muscle to his frame) So 8.4 lbs / 14 lbs = 0.60 lbs LBM / 1lb BW.
So my recommendation to his based on knowing his "stats" was he could still continue to bulk at a 250-350 calorie surplus for another 4 weeks if he wanted to and measure his progress again. If he's not fallen below 0.5 LBM gain than why should he quit bulking other than he isn't happy with what he sees in the mirror????
2. The "evidence" out there of it becoming harder for muscle gain is for experienced elite trained athletes. I've always questioned the 15% "rule." Even Lyle Mcdonald says it can be done you just need to consistently track progress after the 15% mark. No big deal......
3. After talking with him at length via PMs, I think at this point he mentally is ready to cut and that is completely fine. I agree with your recommendation of 0.5 lb / week cut. The last thing we wants to do is cut into his gains. In my opinion part of the reason he doesn't look like he has progressed as much is his LBM is still relatively low for his total BW. If I got down to 157 lbs I'd be around 10-11% BF which is going to give me a much more visible muscular look......
Either way, he's getting results and I'm happy to see he's got the right attitude about it!
I see what you are saying. I guess I would be a little wary of basing that on a hand held device as those are not that accurate; however, if you use it as a baseline then it does make sense to go by those numbers.
to point three - you could have a point there, that he has not put on enough LBM for it to be showing and it gives the appearance of more body fat. I think that being 19 years old if he ran about three bulk/cut cycles he would have some nice gains over the course of the year...
man, I wish I was 19 again ...lolz
Nick, I just turned 21 last month, haha I am not 19 years old. So you are saying if I cut now, do a longer bulk, and cut again by next summer I could look decent?
my bad bro!
OK - I wish I was 21 again ..even better!
What I am saying is that in your 20's you are primed for gains because your testosterone production is off the charts so take advantage of that.
yes, I think if you cut for 12 weeks through summer, and then bulk through fall/winter, and cut in eary spring you will be happy with results.
so cut from June to September
bulk September to February 1
cut from February to April
see where you are in April.
I am going to say this again but you really need to run a good beginner program like strong lifts, new rules, starting strength etc....but that is my opinion..
I would also be curious as to what everyone else's opinion on this is.
Haha it's alright man! And really? Well at least I got one thing going for me on this!
Sweet, okay I am going to do my best man! Sort of lowered my eating to a little under 3000 this week so around 150 less than last week just to see how my body reacts to it and make the transition starting next week a little less.. shocking to my body I guess?
Okay so June to Sept. is about 12 week and then Sept. to February is about 5 months right? You think that is a long enough time to bulk?
And I think I do want to try StrongLifts or Starting Strength in the fall, would be eager to get bench and squat numbers way higher since I am pretty new to this so they are fairly low right now lol. Deadlift my form I definitely have to work on. You'd help me with that right?
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collegenerd20 wrote: »@ndj1979 so I've been talking with him and he is averaging .6lb of LBM gain per lb of BW. While the pictures may say "cut/recomp" if he's still averaging that type of LBM gain why should he stop bulking other than "he doesn't like what he sees in the mirror?"
My understanding had always been that 15% BF is the "magic" number where you body becomes less efficient at increasing LBM. So after 15% BF you'd expect him to be gaining less than .5 lbs of LBM per 1lb of BW.
Am I correct?
sorry, I just saw this.
How did you figure out the .6 lbm gain per pound of BW?
two things:
1. He is gainig about 1.5 pound per week, so at the minimum I think he should scale that back to one pound per week gain.
2. form the posted pictures it looks like he has over shot his bulk a bit and is in the 18% bod fat range. My understanding is that as one gets closer to 20% it is going to be harder to gain mass, and the ratio of fat to muscle gain will tilt towards fat over muscle.
3. Sorry three things I think if he did a 12 week cut and then went back to the bulk he would see some better gains. It also appears that mentally he wants to lose some fat…
No problem Nick, I knew you'd eventually see it. :-) I will address each of your 3 points now.....
1. 4 months of bulking is 16 weeks. He had gained a total of 14 lbs of BW. Based on what he shared with me he started at 12.3% BF and is now at 15.3% per his OMRON device.
143lbs * (1-12.3%) = 125.4 lbs LBM
157lbs * (1-15.3%) = 133.0 lbs LBM
Increased LBM by 8.4 lbs. (by his progress pictures, he has definitely added muscle to his frame) So 8.4 lbs / 14 lbs = 0.60 lbs LBM / 1lb BW.
So my recommendation to his based on knowing his "stats" was he could still continue to bulk at a 250-350 calorie surplus for another 4 weeks if he wanted to and measure his progress again. If he's not fallen below 0.5 LBM gain than why should he quit bulking other than he isn't happy with what he sees in the mirror????
2. The "evidence" out there of it becoming harder for muscle gain is for experienced elite trained athletes. I've always questioned the 15% "rule." Even Lyle Mcdonald says it can be done you just need to consistently track progress after the 15% mark. No big deal......
3. After talking with him at length via PMs, I think at this point he mentally is ready to cut and that is completely fine. I agree with your recommendation of 0.5 lb / week cut. The last thing we wants to do is cut into his gains. In my opinion part of the reason he doesn't look like he has progressed as much is his LBM is still relatively low for his total BW. If I got down to 157 lbs I'd be around 10-11% BF which is going to give me a much more visible muscular look......
Either way, he's getting results and I'm happy to see he's got the right attitude about it!
I see what you are saying. I guess I would be a little wary of basing that on a hand held device as those are not that accurate; however, if you use it as a baseline then it does make sense to go by those numbers.
to point three - you could have a point there, that he has not put on enough LBM for it to be showing and it gives the appearance of more body fat. I think that being 19 years old if he ran about three bulk/cut cycles he would have some nice gains over the course of the year...
man, I wish I was 19 again ...lolz
Nick, I just turned 21 last month, haha I am not 19 years old. So you are saying if I cut now, do a longer bulk, and cut again by next summer I could look decent?
my bad bro!
OK - I wish I was 21 again ..even better!
What I am saying is that in your 20's you are primed for gains because your testosterone production is off the charts so take advantage of that.
yes, I think if you cut for 12 weeks through summer, and then bulk through fall/winter, and cut in eary spring you will be happy with results.
so cut from June to September
bulk September to February 1
cut from February to April
see where you are in April.
I am going to say this again but you really need to run a good beginner program like strong lifts, new rules, starting strength etc....but that is my opinion..
I would also be curious as to what everyone else's opinion on this is.
Lol it is all good! Most people think I do not even look 21. And really? That is awesome! I will do my best to utilize this advantage! And I will definitely do my best with the cut bulk and following cut!
So June to Sept. is about 12 weeks, then Sept. to Feb. is about 5 months? Is that enough time for the bulk?
I actually do want to try StrongLifts or Starting Strength in the fall when I get back to school. You just know I am a little self-conscious about my deadlifting form since I have done it once or twice so far and it did not look so great. You'd help me with that right?
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I know bulk/cut cycles are often the answer, but at 21 years old, I would eat at maintenance or slightly below and lift. You will get some gains at your age. In my opinion, you do not have the base for bulk and cut cycles just yet. You are putting the cart before the horse in my opinion.
I think go with this idea. It's far less complicated and you will make good progress without having to mess about with the details/complications of cutting and bulking. OP make sure that you have your Macro's and calories correct for your TDEE. I noticed you mentioned you are eating 3000 cals. That's about what I eat at 200lbs. Is this correct for you?0 -
I know bulk/cut cycles are often the answer, but at 21 years old, I would eat at maintenance or slightly below and lift. You will get some gains at your age. In my opinion, you do not have the base for bulk and cut cycles just yet. You are putting the cart before the horse in my opinion.
correct me if I am wrong...but I thought he would want to do a recomp when he had added some mass through a few bulk/cut cycles..???? or am I way off base here?
No idea on what the "standard" answer is to be honest. I just think at 21 years old, he would get some mass recomping. I basically started where he did at 18% or so and was able to get my BF down to current (11-12%) while keeping the same weight and increasing all the good measurements as well as dropping my waist from 34" to 30". And I'm an "old man" compared to him at 37 years old. I would think he could profit even larger.
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Bulking when you have barely any muscle mass is going to be a pain in the end for the majority of people who dare to challenge it. He might gain 5 pounds of muscle but he will have to cut so much fat when he gains 30 pounds of fat over his already high fat body percentage, he could ultimately lose a year of progress for 5 pounds he would have gained anyways. It seems he is new to working out and most people gain 5-10 easy anyways because of newbie gains.
I think he should soon ( or start now) working out for 8 months get his newbie gains, then see where he is with calories, measurements and weight. Make a decision. The best metaphor I can come up with is he built a house on weak foundation.
I'm also curious of what his program is, he should be hitting heavy compound movement aka weights consistently to actually build muscle, if he is adding 300-600 of unnecessary calories and not resting, and breaking down his muscle, he is just spinning his wheels, and will just end up being skinny fat.
People often confuse gaining weight as getting bigger, they are getting fatter and it's not easy to successful cutt for the majority, if it was everyone would do it.. It's scary he is gaining 1.5 pound a week, that is a lot of fat with a little muscle!
Seen this plenty of times in the gym a guy goes I have 14" inch arms, I'm like yeah "fatceps"! Not 14" biceps or triceps.
I wish you luck my friend it's trial and error, don't give up though, you have made progress but jumped the gun. Go back to maintenance or slightly under and rip the weights up at the gym or wherever you lift. The reality is most people only gain 20-25 pounds of real lean muscle and it takes 6-10 years (depending on age), unless you are on something!0 -
Wow did not realize I would get so many informative well-intentioned advice here on the forums (since this post had a little bit of a slow start)! Thank you everyone sincerely! I think I have a plan of action and I hope it goes well!0
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