CI/CO vs Clean Eating
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coreyreichle wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »I don't see why it would be controversial to suggest that everyone should learn moderation. Not only with food, but with everything.
Would you say this to alcoholics or people in 12 step programs for drugs or gambling?
Yes.
Because the problem isn't so much as their body metabolizes alcohol differently than every other human being, but rather they personally lack the mental ability to moderate their alcohol consumption (Or drugs, or gambling).
You clearly have no clue.
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WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »
I really think you got the answers to your questions OP, back in the beginning of the thread, about whether it matters if you eat "clean" vs IIFYM.
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I'm not sure what else you think you're going to hear differently, I actually think we have a pretty solid level of agreement for one of these threads, aside from the AA derailment, I think this one should probably just fade off before it turns into something that needs to be locked and/or deleted by mods.
I agree that my question was answered. I enjoy some of the additional comments and perspectives people are leaving, though, and am not claiming my question went unanswered. I always enjoy the knowledge and perspective of those who have more experience-- so thank you again for your help.
Even if we did have to wade through rather confusing conversations to get the answers I was seeking.
I hope the mods do not delete this thread and see no real reason for them to. There is a lot of great information here -- information that I searched for previously and was unable to find before posting.
I agree that up until the last page or so when a particularly polarizing poster arrived, this thread was filled with fairly civil debate.
However now that Mr "Obesity Comes From Malnutrition" has arrived and started in with the unnecessary demonization of white foods, I would give this thread another 5 pages or about 3 hours from now (give the West Coasters time to wake up and see this) before it gets really ugly and locked/nuked by a mod.
It really is a shame.
I wold suggest reporting said poster.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »
I really think you got the answers to your questions OP, back in the beginning of the thread, about whether it matters if you eat "clean" vs IIFYM.
...
I'm not sure what else you think you're going to hear differently, I actually think we have a pretty solid level of agreement for one of these threads, aside from the AA derailment, I think this one should probably just fade off before it turns into something that needs to be locked and/or deleted by mods.
I agree that my question was answered. I enjoy some of the additional comments and perspectives people are leaving, though, and am not claiming my question went unanswered. I always enjoy the knowledge and perspective of those who have more experience-- so thank you again for your help. Even if we did have to wade through rather confusing conversations to get the answers I was seeking.
I hope the mods do not delete this thread and see no real reason for them to. There is a lot of great information here -- information that I searched for previously and was unable to find before posting.
I agree that up until the last page or so when a particularly polarizing poster arrived, this thread was filled with fairly civil debate.
However now that Mr "Obesity Comes From Malnutrition" has arrived and started in with the unnecessary demonization of white foods, I would give this thread another 5 pages or about 3 hours from now (give the West Coasters time to wake up and see this) before it gets really ugly and locked/nuked by a mod.
It really is a shame.
I wold suggest reporting said poster.0 -
I am late to this party but if you are clean eating (whatever that is) then you are doing CICO because you have replaced calorie dense foods with less calorie dense foods.
Additionally, 500 calories of donuts = 500 calories of carrots from an energy perspective; however, they are no nutritionally the same.
What matters is that one has a balanced diet that hits micros/macros/calorie targets. So yes, within this overall diet you can have fish, vegetable,s chicken, whole grains, oreos, ice cream, and pizza and as long as you are within all three targets that I mentioned you will be "healthy"….
clean eating is necessary for nothing.
in….for well yea I could eat 1500 calories of oreos and lose weight but that is not healthy…
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Go to bed. Wake up to Taubes and Hyman.
Oh the lulz.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »
I really think you got the answers to your questions OP, back in the beginning of the thread, about whether it matters if you eat "clean" vs IIFYM.
...
I'm not sure what else you think you're going to hear differently, I actually think we have a pretty solid level of agreement for one of these threads, aside from the AA derailment, I think this one should probably just fade off before it turns into something that needs to be locked and/or deleted by mods.
I agree that my question was answered. I enjoy some of the additional comments and perspectives people are leaving, though, and am not claiming my question went unanswered. I always enjoy the knowledge and perspective of those who have more experience-- so thank you again for your help. Even if we did have to wade through rather confusing conversations to get the answers I was seeking.
I hope the mods do not delete this thread and see no real reason for them to. There is a lot of great information here -- information that I searched for previously and was unable to find before posting.
I agree that up until the last page or so when a particularly polarizing poster arrived, this thread was filled with fairly civil debate.
However now that Mr "Obesity Comes From Malnutrition" has arrived and started in with the unnecessary demonization of white foods, I would give this thread another 5 pages or about 3 hours from now (give the West Coasters time to wake up and see this) before it gets really ugly and locked/nuked by a mod.
It really is a shame.
I wold suggest reporting said poster.
Yes, he is just a troll. Funny, though.0 -
I try to think of it like this: What does my body need from food?
Firstly, my body needs energy. When it comes to energy, it doesn't matter where it comes from. Simple carbs are the easiest for the body to convert to energy. So if my body really needs energy, simple carbs (evil sugar!) are a great source.
Next, my body needs protein and fat. They can be turned into energy as well, but they are also used to keep the structures and systems of my body in good working form.
Also, my body needs vitamins, minerals and other micronutrients. These have specific benefits to help the structures and systems of my body to stay in tip top shape.
Last but not least, my body needs fiber. Fiber makes sure the "food processing factory" stays in good working order.
Also don't forget water!
When it comes to weight loss and body composition it's about keeping a reasonable energy deficit while getting all the macros, micros and fiber your body requires (and maybe just a bit more to be safe). If you can fit a few cupcakes or pop tarts into the equation without shorting your body of what it needs, there will be no issues.
You throw in some exercise including some resistance training and you have a recipe for success.
Note: You always need to take medical issues, allergies and intolerances in to consideration as well.0 -
[ I think we actually agreed that the holy rollers who eat 0% treats are probably few, and that most people wind up doing 80/20, and use these different heuristics to think through their meals and days. I'm not bothered if they're not entirely self-consistent, as long as they're seeing results that promote normal weight (and health). I really haven't noticed rudeness, so I can't speak to that.
Yeah, I don't care what others do or if they are consistent until they start preaching to others that they MUST follow some diet (cutting out processed food) that they themselves don't really or claiming that others should give up "junk" entirely or basically taking a high horse with respect to the rest of us and claiming we don't care about nutrition. That's annoying.
I also think (again) that anyone who thinks about it knows what a decent diet is, so if they are eating an absurd diet they know it's absurd. (It's easy enough to get fat on a non absurd diet--which is different IMO from the super "clean" diet you are referring to. Sure, if you don't eat treats and cut carbs low and eat only lean meats and limit fats on veggies it can be challenging to eat enough.) Therefore, this idea that if we tell people to eat a balanced diet with treats in moderation that they will be confused and think they are being told to eat only Twinkies and McD's is wrong.Curious: what offends you about people looking for recipes? Or about the idea that some people don't know how to cook? It's a fact, there are people who don't know how to cook. Or people who cooked in ways that didn't serve their goals and now want to learn something else.
No, of course I'm not complaining about people looking for recipes or not knowing how to cook. My pet peeve is people asking for "clean" recipes, as if you needed a special source to avoid the recipes where people add "processed" stuff or sugar or whatever to their salmon or steak. It's bizarre. Do these people really think that most normal recipes are full of "processed" foods or whatever and that you need special "clean" recipes to cook from whole foods? Like I said above, I read lots of cookbooks and I've yet to find one that wouldn't work just fine for a clean eater (and indeed be more truly "clean" as it's usually defined than most self proclaimed "clean" eaters here seem to eat). This bugs me because they seem to have odd assumptions about how "special" eating from whole foods is and to make false assumptions about how most people eat (or what most cookbooks involve).
Anyway, it's not like I tell them it annoys me. I tell them they don't need a special cookbook to learn to cook normally (which is from whole foods, generally) and recommend some cookbooks for beginners or that are focused on veggies.
Basically the "clean" eating thing bugs me for two separate reasons. One is that people who recently dropped an absurd diet to eat basically normally start preaching to the rest of us as if we all eat like they used to when many of us never did and the rest figured this out some time ago, and then tell newbies that they must do silly things like drop ALL processed foods or ALL treats when in fact that's not necessary for most (if anyone, in that dropping processed foods isn't really helpful or possible, as we've discussed). This frequently comes along with weird assumptions about people they know nothing about--that they are struggling with not being satiated, that they are "addicted" to sweets, that they eat tons of sweets or fast food. This might be true, but why not let them say that before making assumptions? It wouldn't have been true for me, so someone telling me I needed to "eat clean" or simply quit "sugar" or wheat or "white foods" or the like wouldn't have been helpful. And even if someone is having issues with satiety or struggling with moderation, there are often ways to deal that don't require eating super "clean" -- it's generally not all or nothing. If someone really wants to eat very "clean" I don't care (I mean, look at my diary back when I first started), but on the whole I think people who are happy and comfortable doing this don't feel compelled to post about it or don't need to ask "what do I eat" as if regular foods were some mystery.
The other--more significant but more amusing usually--are those like he who has recently shown up who tell people things that just aren't true, like that calories don't matter, you can eat endless amounts of "clean" foods so long as you avoid the "bad" ones (I guess certain white ones), so on. That's the kind of dieting woo that people sometimes want to believe and end up getting misled by.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »From Taubes to Hyman??? LOLOLOLOLOLOL.
:-)0 -
Until the page 10 derailment into woo, this has been the most reasonable and civil clean eating thread I've seen. I'd love to see it locked, but not deleted and just allowed to live in the archive. Not as a sticky. Just something that will turn up in search results. As someone mentioned many pages ago, one reason there are so many posts about clean eating may be that they often get deleted, so people don't have many relevant search results to consider.
Is there a way to suggest this one be saved? It's like a sand castle that I want to save from the tide.
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Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »BILLBRYTAN wrote: »The only problem I have with CICO is that obesity is not caused by excessive caloric intake; it is caused by malnutrition; the poor body is screaming for nutrients which it never gets and therefore the person is never satisfied and always eating. If we all ate properly there would be no reason to count calories. And eating properly is incredibly easy: cook with lard instead of oil and stop using anything refined and white.
i
Oh boy, it's this guy.
He lost me at lard. But I'm willing to learn more about this idea... The body is always hungry searching for nutrients, so the human remains hungry. I could roll with that, possibly.
Lard? That is where he lost you? Not at the beginning?
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BILLBRYTAN wrote: »The only problem I have with CICO is that obesity is not caused by excessive caloric intake; it is caused by malnutrition; the poor body is screaming for nutrients which it never gets and therefore the person is never satisfied and always eating. If we all ate properly there would be no reason to count calories. And eating properly is incredibly easy: cook with lard instead of oil and stop using anything refined and white.
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BILLBRYTAN wrote: »The only problem I have with CICO is that obesity is not caused by excessive caloric intake; it is caused by malnutrition; the poor body is screaming for nutrients which it never gets and therefore the person is never satisfied and always eating. If we all ate properly there would be no reason to count calories. And eating properly is incredibly easy: cook with lard instead of oil and stop using anything refined and white.
I have to say that your posts have really inspired me. They've inspired me to ask this question (and I am asking seriously - if anyone knows, I'd be grateful):
Is it possible to block individual users on these boards? I realize that I can skip posts when I see that a 'favorite' is at it again, but when some of them go on and on for multiple paragraphs it's sort of a pain to work around them. Just blocking the user would be great. Is that function available?
You can block them from PMing you and viewing your profile, etc., but unfortunately you can no longer ignore people's posts.
I miss the old forums, where flagging was nonexistent and you could just block out all the nonsense. 0 -
If we're going to spout weird claims about malnutrition causing obesity, can we at least stick with scientific hypotheses that have the honesty to call themselves hypotheses like the protein deficiency hypothesis.0
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tomatoey, I should say that I actually think we are mostly on the same page and have the same general ideas about what might be good steps to improve your diet if you want to, things to try to improve satiety, the kind of advice to give, etc. We just have different reactions to the use of the term "clean," it seems.0
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