How low can I keep my protein?

bertobelle77

I am currently 227lbs and 40% body fat. I would like to lose 10% of my body fat while keeping as much of my lean muscle as possible. I am vegetarian and so my protein consumption tends to be on the low side, today I got about 40g of protein for example.

I know some sources say to eat huge amounts of protein but I am really not convinced that is healthy long term for example this study http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/711217 links high protein diets to dementia.

I do agree high protein makes people look good and makes them strong but it also seems to be negative long term for health.

In addition I like to eat a high antioxident diet with lots of fresh vegetables and some fruits, nuts etc because that is good for my skin.

What is the minimum amount of protein I can eat to meet my goals of losing fat and keeping my mucle as much as possible?

Thank you!

Note: I am a vegetarian but I do eat eggs and milk.

slaite1

Most people recommend 0.8g/pound of lean mass. I aim for 0.8/lb-which is around 116g, but in happy if I get around 100. 40 sounds very low-particularly since you are losing weight.

I do not eat meat, either. I do eat dairy and eggs. Most days I have a protein smoothie that incorporates Greek yogurt and whey protein and is about 40g in and of itself. It's a super easy (and delicious) way to get some extra protein.

Even without protein powder it's not too hard. Greek yogurt, meat replacement products, grain breads and pastas, beans and lentils. Make it a priority and you'll get more in.

mauriscool

I range at about 60-80g on a vegan diet. Minimum amount I have heard is about 30-40g. Most health fitness magazines will say to eat your weight in the amount of grams of protein. I agree to disagree with you on stuff like this.

In order for me to determine if I am getting enough protein I do it relative to how sore I am feeling. For example, if I workout and the next day I feel extremely sore I will generally increase my protein consumption. If lets say I feel sore two days after then I know i'm most likely not intaking enough protein. I do take into account that the body needs to process it and as well as the rebuilding phase can sometimes take a while but thats my way of somewhat determining how much I need.

psuLemon

bertobelle77 wrote: »

I am currently 227lbs and 40% body fat. I would like to lose 10% of my body fat while keeping as much of my lean muscle as possible. I am vegetarian and so my protein consumption tends to be on the low side, today I got about 40g of protein for example.

I know some sources say to eat huge amounts of protein but I am really not convinced that is healthy long term for example this study http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/711217 links high protein diets to dementia.

I do agree high protein makes people look good and makes them strong but it also seems to be negative long term for health.

In addition I like to eat a high antioxident diet with lots of fresh vegetables and some fruits, nuts etc because that is good for my skin.

What is the minimum amount of protein I can eat to meet my goals of losing fat and keeping my mucle as much as possible?

Thank you!

Note: I am a vegetarian but I do eat eggs and milk.

Where did you hear the bold statement?

Typically, to maintain lean body mass, you want .8g-1g of protein per lb of lean body mass. Additionally, you will want some resistance training.


ps - your study requires a login, do you have the study from another source?

yarwell

The RDI is around 50 grams per day in many places. 75 grams is OK for an obese person on a VLCD so there's some numbers to shoot at.

psuLemon

yarwell wrote: »

The RDI is around 50 grams per day in many places. 75 grams is OK for an obese person on a VLCD so there's some numbers to shoot at.

And there is plenty of research suggesting that higher protein is beneficial, especially when the OP's ultimate goal is maintaining "as much lean body mass as possible". Below is a pretty good thread with a ton of studies at various levels.

I guess the question for the OP, is what is their training routine as well?


http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/823505

Iron_Feline

regarding the study

"Unexpectedly, mice fed a high protein/low carbohydrate diet had brains five percent lighter that all the others, and regions of their hippocampus were less developed. This result was a surprise, and, until researchers test this effect on non-transgenic mice, it is unclear whether the loss of brain mass is associated with AD-type plaque. But some studies in the published literature led the authors to put forward a tentative theory that a high protein diet may leave neurones more vulnerable to AD plaque. Mice on a high fat diet had raised levels of plaque proteins, but this had no effect on plaque burden."

Note the bold

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091020192206.htm

Iron_Feline

And the study

http://www.molecularneurodegeneration.com/content/4/1/40

psuLemon

Iron_Feline wrote: »

And the study

http://www.molecularneurodegeneration.com/content/4/1/40

Thanks, it's also worth noting that the HP diet made up 60% of their intake, which is beyond crazy.

Need2Exerc1se

I would say keep an eye on your strength. If you are strong, it stands to reason that you have enough muscle to be healthy.

Kalikel

Most people here go for the maximum amount of protein that can do them any good. Some go for more than can do them any good. MFP is a very pro-protein group, on the whole.

There really isn't a minimum recommendation, except to say 10-35% of your calories.

If you want the general recommendation, it's .8g per kilogram of body weight a day. You should try to get that much.

Eggs, cottage cheese, yogurt, tofu, edamame - all big sources of protein for the vegetarian. Some eat Quorn or Morning Star faux-meats, but that's a hotly contested issue in the vegetarian community and I'm not taking a side on that. If you're cool with faux-meat, try them. If you're not, don't, I don't care who eats what and am just tossing out an idea.

Iron_Feline

psulemon wrote: »

Iron_Feline wrote: »

And the study

http://www.molecularneurodegeneration.com/content/4/1/40

Thanks, it's also worth noting that the HP diet made up 60% of their intake, which is beyond crazy.

Yeah - that's way more protein that I've ever seen recommended.

And showing yet again why people need to read and understand studies before claiming they do things.

since this comment

"this study http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/711217 links high protein diets to dementia."

becomes

"this study shows a possible link if you eat 60% of your calories in protein and are a transgenic mouse"

on reading the study.

lemurcat12

For basic health the normal recommendation for protein is .8 g/kg of bodyweight. The numbers you see floating around (like 56 g) tend to be based on averages, so I wouldn't rely on them. So for you I'd think 82 g. (It's higher because your weight is higher than the average ones that tend to be used. For me that number would be only 45, because my weight is reasonably average for a woman--125.)

However, I'd caution you if you are worried about maintaining muscle mass while losing and if you are exercising that you might want to go higher. There is evidence of benefits up to 1-1.5 g/kg of bodyweight (see http://examine.com/faq/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day.html), although if you are obese focusing on lean mass or goal bodyweight might be a better way to figure it (if using lean mass the multiplier is higher). For you that gives you about 104 grams as the lower part of that range.

As for negative effects from higher protein, that generally relates to much higher levels than we are talking about here. As for a connection with dementia, I've only seen that asserted in relatively untrustworthy sources (like Mercola and the Daily Mail) and it seems it's highly speculative and there is other evidence related to other macronutrients (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22810099) so I'd not be inclined to worry about it.

What is more likely true is that eating in a way that is sustainable for you will probably be healthiest overall for the longterm, as it will allow you to eat in a way that prevents excess weight. As a vegetarian, it may be harder to get protein, although dairy and eggs plus legumes and other vegetarian sources should be plenty if you wish to organize your diet to increase protein.

leggup

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22810099

Abstract: The risk of MCI or dementia (hazard ratio, [95% confidence interval]) was elevated in subjects with high % carbohydrate (upper quartile: 1.89 [1.17-3.06]; p for trend = 0.004), but was reduced in subjects with high % fat (upper quartile: 0.56 [0.34-0.91]; p for trend = 0.03), and high % protein (upper quartile 0.79 [0.52-1.20]; p for trend = 0.03) in the fully adjusted models. A dietary pattern with relatively high caloric intake from carbohydrates and low caloric intake from fat and proteins may increase the risk of MCI or dementia in elderly persons.

Instead of going high this, low that, why not just go with the middle of the recommended ranges?

Kalikel

Technically, the .8/kg/day is supposed to be kilograms of healthy body weight. It doesn't really go way, way up because you're obese. But since you'll have a higher intake, the 10-35% will go up.

foursirius

.77g/lb of protein seems to be sufficient if you are trying to maintain your current muscle mass while lifting. I've seen as low a number as .61g/lb of protein (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1400008), but I did like the methodology of the study that found .77g/lb so I'll stick with that.

link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129168/

lemurcat12

Kalikel wrote: »

Technically, the .8/kg/day is supposed to be kilograms of healthy body weight. It doesn't really go way, way up because you're obese. But since you'll have a higher intake, the 10-35% will go up.

Agree with this--OP said he/she wanted to lose 10% of body weight, so I was assuming not obese (I was also assuming a guy, and it seems that was wrong).

Looking at the profile, it seems inconsistent, but if OP is obese that makes a difference to the recommendation. I'd use goal bodyweight or a bodyweight at around 25 BMI, perhaps, as she will have more muscle mass now than at goal, presumably. There are also formula for figuring the amount based on lean body mass.

Kalikel

lemurcat12 wrote: »

Kalikel wrote: »

Technically, the .8/kg/day is supposed to be kilograms of healthy body weight. It doesn't really go way, way up because you're obese. But since you'll have a higher intake, the 10-35% will go up.

Agree with this--OP said he/she wanted to lose 10% of body weight, so I was assuming not obese (I was also assuming a guy, and it seems that was wrong).

Looking at the profile, it seems inconsistent, but if OP is obese that makes a difference to the recommendation. I'd use goal bodyweight or a bodyweight at around 25 BMI, perhaps, as she will have more muscle mass now than at goal, presumably. There are also formula for figuring the amount based on lean body mass.

It's so hard to pick a number. I guess I'm lucky that I'm always low. The answer for me, when it comes to protein questions, is always "More!"

Coolhandkid

If your goal is to lose 23 lb (10% of 227), please keep in mind that without significant protein, much of that weight loss is going to be lean muscle mass. Even if you eat enough protein you are going to lose muscle. Thats just the way this works.

sympha01

OP, to be honest, it sounds to me like you have already made up your mind.

1) You say you want to keep more of your lean mass while losing weight / fat
2) You acknowledge that the evidence seems to support getting more protein helps people with that goal
3) But you say you don't want to increase your protein intake for various reasons: vegetarian, personal preference, reasonable enough (plus dubious science that frankly sounds a little pretextual to me, not so cool but whatever, you do you).

To be very honest, the protective role dietary protein plays in lean mass conservation increases in importance 1) the bigger your calorie deficit and 2) the more active you are. That is, if your calorie deficit is very small (and you are losing weight very very slowly) and you are not and have never been terribly active, eating a smidge below the 0.8g/kg bodyweight recommendation would not be utterly disastrous, though you will lose some lean mass. But if your deficit is more than, say, 500 cal / day, or you are at least moderately active, getting at least 0.8g/kg bodyweight is pretty important, and if you skimp on protein you'll pay the price in lean mass.

Bottom line, there's a trade-off. You don't have to increase your protein intake -- you won't die as a result -- but if you don't, you DO have to accept that eating around 40g of protein per day may hold you back from optimizing your body composition as you eat at a calorie deficit. It'll cost you something. Period. Wishful thinking and cherry-picking studies or advice won't change that. I'd recommend you consider your priorities and choose accordingly. Maybe your eating preferences are more important than your body composition goals, and that would be perfectly fine but you would need to make that choice actively and with your eyes open.

FWIW I personally don't supplement with protein powders, but I do get 30-50 g of protein every day just from greek yogurt (love that stuff and I eat a lot of it). I'm very very active though, so I need more than the 0.8g / kg bodyweight recommendation: I go for more like 1.5 g / kg. Manage it with real food, and while I'm an omnivore more of my protein comes from dairy and whole grains than meat. It's mostly a matter of careful planning and strategizing many of my food choices based on protein::calorie ratios. Lots of dairy works well for me, and I eat a lot of higher-protein / low-calorie veggies like spinach and mushrooms. And I tend to eat beans a lot in place of lower-protein starches like pasta or rice (not so much in place of meat). Even when I was cutting aggressively I tended to actively avoid many dieters' low calorie substitutions if they have poor protein::calorie ratios (e.g. almond milk instead of real milk: NOPE, not enough protein for those calories to meet my goals).

Final note: if the primary reason you want to protect your lean mass is ultimately about looks (maybe it's not, but I'm getting the vibe this is very important to you based on some of your side comments), diet alone won't get you there. There's no magical number for the protein levels in your diet that can take the place of resistance-based exercise. You haven't mentioned your exercise regimen, but if you're not planning to make resistance-based exercise part of your plan, this whole conversation is really pretty moot.