New article against organic food...
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Most of us grew up on pesticides and we are still here lol.0
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Pinnacle_Fitness wrote: »I joined an organic farm co-op some years ago.
The fruits and veggies were OK but looked much like the produce from a typical grocery.
And the cost was almost 3 times higher.
Today, I just buy regular fruits and veggies, and that is as good as it's going to get.
I see no value in "organic".
The more I read and see the more I tend to agree with your statements.
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Maybe that's because in both instances the fruit wasn't picked too early so that it could get to market before it rotted.kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Smaller and less juicy among other things, most blind taste tests end up with non-organic veggies and fruit being chosen as tasting better.
Can you be specific about the tests? A link or some type of reference? I've only seen a couple of taste tests between organic and non-organic and they showed no significant difference in taste or nutritrient content.
I don't have time for that, I've also seen experiments where they label the organic as"non-Organic" and non-Organic as "organic" and people choose the "organic"(so actually non-organic) 100% of the time as being better tasting. That tells me that it's mostly a mental thing.
Most people don't eat organic because of taste. That's more a reason to eat local because it's fresher.
Right, the peaches I get from the farm stand blow away the peaches I no longer buy from the supermarket.
And I've never had a banana in the US as good as the bananas I had in Costa Rica.
The bananas I had in Ecuador were better than the bananas from Ecuador that I can buy here... largely because the ones I had there were picked when ripe, not while still very green.
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More expensive for indistinguishable taste and nutrient differences.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
No offense, but your saying that without anything to back it up isn't convincing to me. And even if it were true, I'm not sure how it makes the end product "inferior". Can you explain further?0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/xmas/pesticides/labels/Roundup-orig-max-msds.pdf
Roundup...practically non-toxic to mammals...many chemicals on the "approved" organic list will be FAR more toxic than this, but not knowing what the chemicals are actually used for, it's hard to give a direct comparison, use for use.
Non-toxic to mammals isn't the same as non-toxic or safe for the environment. Other creatures inhabit the Earth besides mammals.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/xmas/pesticides/labels/Roundup-orig-max-msds.pdf
Roundup...practically non-toxic to mammals...many chemicals on the "approved" organic list will be FAR more toxic than this, but not knowing what the chemicals are actually used for, it's hard to give a direct comparison, use for use.
Non-toxic to mammals isn't the same as non-toxic or safe for the environment. Other creatures inhabit the Earth besides mammals.
Yeah, this stuff is poison to most plants, I'll give it that
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Essentially, cold storage kills the flavour of fruit and vegetables, and it can be weeks between picking and point of sale. The vitamin/mineral content is also rapidly dropping over time as well. Actually, the solution is to buy frozen veg - for British frozen food, at least, the time between picking and freezing can be as small as an hour or two. All the nutrition, and flavours, captured at the point of fast freezing.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Maybe that's because in both instances the fruit wasn't picked too early so that it could get to market before it rotted.kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Smaller and less juicy among other things, most blind taste tests end up with non-organic veggies and fruit being chosen as tasting better.
Can you be specific about the tests? A link or some type of reference? I've only seen a couple of taste tests between organic and non-organic and they showed no significant difference in taste or nutritrient content.
I don't have time for that, I've also seen experiments where they label the organic as"non-Organic" and non-Organic as "organic" and people choose the "organic"(so actually non-organic) 100% of the time as being better tasting. That tells me that it's mostly a mental thing.
Most people don't eat organic because of taste. That's more a reason to eat local because it's fresher.
Right, the peaches I get from the farm stand blow away the peaches I no longer buy from the supermarket.
And I've never had a banana in the US as good as the bananas I had in Costa Rica.
The bananas I had in Ecuador were better than the bananas from Ecuador that I can buy here... largely because the ones I had there were picked when ripe, not while still very green.
The organic argument is always going to rage on - it's such a divisive issue. For me, it's very simple. It's nothing to do the the food being grown, and everything to do with the surrounding environment that they are being grown in. The difference between fields where pesticides are used, and those that are certified organic is the proliferation of wildlife, insects and plants. Decades of proof exist showing what overuse of pesticides on commercial crops has done to the local ecosystems. That's the thing that concerns me, not how my organic carrot tastes compared to non-organic one! If you care about the planet's ecosystems, then organic should be something you are considering. However, price is a barrier for many people.0 -
That's part of it, but I think most of it is that the crops are picked too soon and artificially ripened rather than ripening on the vine or tree.dizzieblondeuk wrote: »
Essentially, cold storage kills the flavour of fruit and vegetables, and it can be weeks between picking and point of sale. The vitamin/mineral content is also rapidly dropping over time as well. Actually, the solution is to buy frozen veg - for British frozen food, at least, the time between picking and freezing can be as small as an hour or two. All the nutrition, and flavours, captured at the point of fast freezing.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Maybe that's because in both instances the fruit wasn't picked too early so that it could get to market before it rotted.kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Smaller and less juicy among other things, most blind taste tests end up with non-organic veggies and fruit being chosen as tasting better.
Can you be specific about the tests? A link or some type of reference? I've only seen a couple of taste tests between organic and non-organic and they showed no significant difference in taste or nutritrient content.
I don't have time for that, I've also seen experiments where they label the organic as"non-Organic" and non-Organic as "organic" and people choose the "organic"(so actually non-organic) 100% of the time as being better tasting. That tells me that it's mostly a mental thing.
Most people don't eat organic because of taste. That's more a reason to eat local because it's fresher.
Right, the peaches I get from the farm stand blow away the peaches I no longer buy from the supermarket.
And I've never had a banana in the US as good as the bananas I had in Costa Rica.
The bananas I had in Ecuador were better than the bananas from Ecuador that I can buy here... largely because the ones I had there were picked when ripe, not while still very green.
I try to buy frozen when I can't get fresh, but frozen bananas and tomatoes aren't a very good option.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/xmas/pesticides/labels/Roundup-orig-max-msds.pdf
Roundup...practically non-toxic to mammals...many chemicals on the "approved" organic list will be FAR more toxic than this, but not knowing what the chemicals are actually used for, it's hard to give a direct comparison, use for use.
Non-toxic to mammals isn't the same as non-toxic or safe for the environment. Other creatures inhabit the Earth besides mammals.
Round-up ready crops allows for no-till growing methods. No-till reduces erosion and promotes healthy soil. Organic methods includes a lot of tilling, which leads to erosion and strips the topsoil of nutrients.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/xmas/pesticides/labels/Roundup-orig-max-msds.pdf
Roundup...practically non-toxic to mammals...many chemicals on the "approved" organic list will be FAR more toxic than this, but not knowing what the chemicals are actually used for, it's hard to give a direct comparison, use for use.
Non-toxic to mammals isn't the same as non-toxic or safe for the environment. Other creatures inhabit the Earth besides mammals.
Round-up ready crops allows for no-till growing methods. No-till reduces erosion and promotes healthy soil. Organic methods includes a lot of tilling, which leads to erosion and strips the topsoil of nutrients.
Not if you practice good farming methods.0 -
Do you have a citation or a study to support this?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/xmas/pesticides/labels/Roundup-orig-max-msds.pdf
Roundup...practically non-toxic to mammals...many chemicals on the "approved" organic list will be FAR more toxic than this, but not knowing what the chemicals are actually used for, it's hard to give a direct comparison, use for use.
Non-toxic to mammals isn't the same as non-toxic or safe for the environment. Other creatures inhabit the Earth besides mammals.
Round-up ready crops allows for no-till growing methods. No-till reduces erosion and promotes healthy soil. Organic methods includes a lot of tilling, which leads to erosion and strips the topsoil of nutrients.
Not if you practice good farming methods.
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stevencloser wrote: »Dietary Pesticides (99.99% all natural)
http://www.pnas.org/content/87/19/7777.full.pdf?wptouch_preview_theme=enabled
http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/03/20/myth-busting-are-synthetic-pesticides-used-with-some-gmos-more-dangerous-than-natural-ones/
We're ingesting a ton of pesticides every day (figuratively, it's 1.5 grams apparently), most of it stuff that the plants create themselves or organic, and in thousands of times higher concentrations than the residue from synthetic insecticides that get applied.
Of the naturally occuring insecticides, only a fraction have been tested for safety, and half of those turned up to be carcinogenic to some degree.
The second to last paragraph in the article is very interesting too. In the 60's, a conventionally bred new type of potato had to be pulled from the shelves because its natural insecticides were way too high and apparently no one checked for that beforehand, apparently because natural and stuff.
Yep, and this is why many small farmers prefer heirloom seeds which have been tested on humans for generations.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Shalaurise wrote: »I just bought "certified organic" peacotums (apricot-plum-peach hybrid) two weeks ago. Washed off more pesticides off them than I did anything else I bought at that farmers market...
I'd be curious to know how you know this. How did you measure the amount of pesticides washed off? What pesticides were they?
I was curious about this also. I wash my vegetables and quite honestly I have never noticed any pesticides being washed down the drain.
The reason provided was ridiculous. I can understand why people wouldn't buy organic and I can also understand why they would. I can't understand why people get so dead set against organic being an option.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
Do you have a citation or a study to support this?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/xmas/pesticides/labels/Roundup-orig-max-msds.pdf
Roundup...practically non-toxic to mammals...many chemicals on the "approved" organic list will be FAR more toxic than this, but not knowing what the chemicals are actually used for, it's hard to give a direct comparison, use for use.
Non-toxic to mammals isn't the same as non-toxic or safe for the environment. Other creatures inhabit the Earth besides mammals.
Round-up ready crops allows for no-till growing methods. No-till reduces erosion and promotes healthy soil. Organic methods includes a lot of tilling, which leads to erosion and strips the topsoil of nutrients.
Not if you practice good farming methods.
Nope. Just experience and good, tilled twice a year, topsoil.0 -
How many acres do you farm?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
Do you have a citation or a study to support this?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/xmas/pesticides/labels/Roundup-orig-max-msds.pdf
Roundup...practically non-toxic to mammals...many chemicals on the "approved" organic list will be FAR more toxic than this, but not knowing what the chemicals are actually used for, it's hard to give a direct comparison, use for use.
Non-toxic to mammals isn't the same as non-toxic or safe for the environment. Other creatures inhabit the Earth besides mammals.
Round-up ready crops allows for no-till growing methods. No-till reduces erosion and promotes healthy soil. Organic methods includes a lot of tilling, which leads to erosion and strips the topsoil of nutrients.
Not if you practice good farming methods.
Nope. Just experience and good, tilled twice a year, topsoil.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
Do you have a citation or a study to support this?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/xmas/pesticides/labels/Roundup-orig-max-msds.pdf
Roundup...practically non-toxic to mammals...many chemicals on the "approved" organic list will be FAR more toxic than this, but not knowing what the chemicals are actually used for, it's hard to give a direct comparison, use for use.
Non-toxic to mammals isn't the same as non-toxic or safe for the environment. Other creatures inhabit the Earth besides mammals.
Round-up ready crops allows for no-till growing methods. No-till reduces erosion and promotes healthy soil. Organic methods includes a lot of tilling, which leads to erosion and strips the topsoil of nutrients.
Not if you practice good farming methods.
Nope. Just experience and good, tilled twice a year, topsoil.
Because your small organic garden is the perfect model for how all food should be produced
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
How many acres do you farm?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
Do you have a citation or a study to support this?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/xmas/pesticides/labels/Roundup-orig-max-msds.pdf
Roundup...practically non-toxic to mammals...many chemicals on the "approved" organic list will be FAR more toxic than this, but not knowing what the chemicals are actually used for, it's hard to give a direct comparison, use for use.
Non-toxic to mammals isn't the same as non-toxic or safe for the environment. Other creatures inhabit the Earth besides mammals.
Round-up ready crops allows for no-till growing methods. No-till reduces erosion and promotes healthy soil. Organic methods includes a lot of tilling, which leads to erosion and strips the topsoil of nutrients.
Not if you practice good farming methods.
Nope. Just experience and good, tilled twice a year, topsoil.
Um, well, good question. We have 2 gardens that are around 30' x 70' each. But we also have various fruit and nut trees and bushes scattered around the property. If you grouped them altogether it would more than an acre but IDK if more than two. Sorry, I'm really not good with acres.
It's not a commercial farm.
Not really sure where you are going with your question, but I get a lot of my info on good farming practices from http://www.motherearthnews.com/0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Shalaurise wrote: »I just bought "certified organic" peacotums (apricot-plum-peach hybrid) two weeks ago. Washed off more pesticides off them than I did anything else I bought at that farmers market...
I'd be curious to know how you know this. How did you measure the amount of pesticides washed off? What pesticides were they?
I was curious about this also. I wash my vegetables and quite honestly I have never noticed any pesticides being washed down the drain.
The reason provided was ridiculous. I can understand why people wouldn't buy organic and I can also understand why they would. I can't understand why people get so dead set against organic being an option.
For me it comes down to economics...I just literally can not afford the difference in price. I do however use the organic option if I really need a specific food item and the non-organic appearance is rather disgusting.
My best example of that is the cilantro that I buy...I use it a lot. Non-organic...28 cents...the organic $1.28. I have needed some for a recipe and the non-organic was wilted so I opted for the organic...just gritted my teeth about the difference in price.
I would love to shop Whole Foods...their produce is amazing. That amazing comes at a price though...about 4 times more expensive than what I can buy produce else where.
IMO...Food has become the next religion...I will leave it at that.
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