New article against organic food...
_John_
Posts: 8,646 Member
reads like bullet point list of discussions here (obviously from the unsupportive side of organic food). Posting here to discuss because reasons...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymiller/2015/07/29/why-organic-agriculture-is-a-colossal-hoax/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymiller/2015/07/29/why-organic-agriculture-is-a-colossal-hoax/
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Wow. This statement "Some consumers think that the USDA National Organic Program (NOP) requires certified organic products to be free of ingredients from “GMOs,” organisms crafted with molecular techniques of genetic engineering. Wrong again. USDA does not require organic products to be GMO-free. " is very misleading and smacks of propaganda or fear mongering.
http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5105405
The use of genetic engineering, or genetically modified organisms (GMOs), is prohibited in organic products. This means an organic farmer can’t plant GMO seeds, an organic cow can’t eat GMO alfalfa or corn, and an organic soup producer can’t use any GMO ingredients.
To meet the USDA organic regulations, farmers and processors must show they aren’t using GMOs and that they are protecting their products from contact with prohibited substances from farm to table.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Wow. This statement "Some consumers think that the USDA National Organic Program (NOP) requires certified organic products to be free of ingredients from “GMOs,” organisms crafted with molecular techniques of genetic engineering. Wrong again. USDA does not require organic products to be GMO-free. " is very misleading and smacks of propaganda or fear mongering.
http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5105405
The use of genetic engineering, or genetically modified organisms (GMOs), is prohibited in organic products. This means an organic farmer can’t plant GMO seeds, an organic cow can’t eat GMO alfalfa or corn, and an organic soup producer can’t use any GMO ingredients.
To meet the USDA organic regulations, farmers and processors must show they aren’t using GMOs and that they are protecting their products from contact with prohibited substances from farm to table.
yeah, that's a far cry from "if a farmer has done all his paper work and follows proper procedures and happens to get a GMO in a crop anyway (however unlikely), then it can still be sold as organic".0 -
I just bought "certified organic" peacotums (apricot-plum-peach hybrid) two weeks ago. Washed off more pesticides off them than I did anything else I bought at that farmers market...
I generally avoid organic crap like my life depends on it. I am not a fan of paying extra money for food because that farmer can afford to pay the government the fee to be certifiable. It means nothing (says the girl that grew up on an orchard). Only got these atrocities because my husband wanted to try them. FYI.... they were either not ripe or they are just super bitter.0 -
Shalaurise wrote: »I just bought "certified organic" peacotums (apricot-plum-peach hybrid) two weeks ago. Washed off more pesticides off them than I did anything else I bought at that farmers market...
I'd be curious to know how you know this. How did you measure the amount of pesticides washed off? What pesticides were they?0 -
"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"0
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Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?0 -
Smaller and less juicy among other things, most blind taste tests end up with non-organic veggies and fruit being chosen as tasting better.0
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Escloflowne wrote: »Smaller and less juicy among other things, most blind taste tests end up with non-organic veggies and fruit being chosen as tasting better.
Can you be specific about the tests? A link or some type of reference? I've only seen a couple of taste tests between organic and non-organic and they showed no significant difference in taste or nutritrient content.0 -
I joined an organic farm co-op some years ago.
The fruits and veggies were OK but looked much like the produce from a typical grocery.
And the cost was almost 3 times higher.
Today, I just buy regular fruits and veggies, and that is as good as it's going to get.
I see no value in "organic".0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Smaller and less juicy among other things, most blind taste tests end up with non-organic veggies and fruit being chosen as tasting better.
Can you be specific about the tests? A link or some type of reference? I've only seen a couple of taste tests between organic and non-organic and they showed no significant difference in taste or nutritrient content.
I don't have time for that, I've also seen experiments where they label the organic as"non-Organic" and non-Organic as "organic" and people choose the "organic"(so actually non-organic) 100% of the time as being better tasting. That tells me that it's mostly a mental thing.0 -
There aren't any specific tolerance levels from the organic label in gmo as in pesticides from the usda.
The agents who checks up and the farmer who fills out the paper work.... all on the honor system. How often are they checked for pesticides (unknown levels) and gmo planting is again the honor system.
Still seem to be just a label with personal confidence in the grower.
Personally, I would not trust the grower unless I knew them. No confidence in the govt lable. (organic)
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Escloflowne wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Smaller and less juicy among other things, most blind taste tests end up with non-organic veggies and fruit being chosen as tasting better.
Can you be specific about the tests? A link or some type of reference? I've only seen a couple of taste tests between organic and non-organic and they showed no significant difference in taste or nutritrient content.
I don't have time for that, I've also seen experiments where they label the organic as"non-Organic" and non-Organic as "organic" and people choose the "organic"(so actually non-organic) 100% of the time as being better tasting. That tells me that it's mostly a mental thing.
Too bad you can't share the information.
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I buy organic occasionally but only because of taste. Organic bananas and carrots taste much better IMO but I only buy them if the price is close to the same as regular.0
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Escloflowne wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Smaller and less juicy among other things, most blind taste tests end up with non-organic veggies and fruit being chosen as tasting better.
Can you be specific about the tests? A link or some type of reference? I've only seen a couple of taste tests between organic and non-organic and they showed no significant difference in taste or nutritrient content.
I don't have time for that, I've also seen experiments where they label the organic as"non-Organic" and non-Organic as "organic" and people choose the "organic"(so actually non-organic) 100% of the time as being better tasting. That tells me that it's mostly a mental thing.
Most people don't eat organic because of taste. That's more a reason to eat local because it's fresher.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Wow. This statement "Some consumers think that the USDA National Organic Program (NOP) requires certified organic products to be free of ingredients from “GMOs,” organisms crafted with molecular techniques of genetic engineering. Wrong again. USDA does not require organic products to be GMO-free. " is very misleading and smacks of propaganda or fear mongering.
It looks like the author is hanging the statement on this:
"Putting it another way, so long as an organic farmer abides by his organic system (production) plan–a plan that an organic certifying agent must approve before granting the farmer organic status–the unintentional presence of GMOs (or, for that matter, prohibited synthetic pesticides) in any amount does not affect the organic status of the farmer’s products or farm."
That much is actually true. IF somehow a certified organic crop of corn was somehow pollinated by a GMO crop of corn, then the organic corn could still be labelled and sold as organic, as long as the organic farmer had followed the processes he was supposed to. But 1. the resulting corn wouldn't really be GMO anyway, even though some people freak out about this scenario, and 2. its not a situation that's likely to happen much because farmers know how to distance their crops so as to produce a product that's true to its labelled variety - and that is true regardless of whether they are growing organic, conventional or GMO.0 -
SarcasmIsMyLoveLanguage wrote: »I buy organic occasionally but only because of taste. Organic bananas and carrots taste much better IMO but I only buy them if the price is close to the same as regular.
You're just stuck in the "It's better because ORGANIC" trend, you're wrong!
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sheermomentum wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Wow. This statement "Some consumers think that the USDA National Organic Program (NOP) requires certified organic products to be free of ingredients from “GMOs,” organisms crafted with molecular techniques of genetic engineering. Wrong again. USDA does not require organic products to be GMO-free. " is very misleading and smacks of propaganda or fear mongering.
It looks like the author is hanging the statement on this:
"Putting it another way, so long as an organic farmer abides by his organic system (production) plan–a plan that an organic certifying agent must approve before granting the farmer organic status–the unintentional presence of GMOs (or, for that matter, prohibited synthetic pesticides) in any amount does not affect the organic status of the farmer’s products or farm."
That much is actually true. IF somehow a certified organic crop of corn was somehow pollinated by a GMO crop of corn, then the organic corn could still be labelled and sold as organic, as long as the organic farmer had followed the processes he was supposed to. But 1. the resulting corn wouldn't really be GMO anyway, even though some people freak out about this scenario, and 2. its not a situation that's likely to happen much because farmers know how to distance their crops so as to produce a product that's true to its labelled variety - and that is true regardless of whether they are growing organic, conventional or GMO.
Exactly. It's just media spin. Not really untrue, but spun to sound like it means something it doesn't. I expected better from Forbes.0 -
Escloflowne wrote: »SarcasmIsMyLoveLanguage wrote: »I buy organic occasionally but only because of taste. Organic bananas and carrots taste much better IMO but I only buy them if the price is close to the same as regular.
You're just stuck in the "It's better because ORGANIC" trend, you're wrong!
ROFL. Well I am from Vancouver after all, so organic ALL THE THINGS!
And who the eff flagged you on that?
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Shalaurise wrote: »I just bought "certified organic" peacotums (apricot-plum-peach hybrid) two weeks ago. Washed off more pesticides off them than I did anything else I bought at that farmers market...
I'd be curious to know how you know this. How did you measure the amount of pesticides washed off? What pesticides were they?
The amount of scrubbing required to remove it from the fruit. When my fruit is supposed to be purpleish and it is more like... lavender... that is a lot of pesticides. Grew. Up. On. An. Orchard.
Random fact. Symbicort smells almost identical to pesticides they put on oranges.
Next.0 -
Nice!Shalaurise wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Shalaurise wrote: »I just bought "certified organic" peacotums (apricot-plum-peach hybrid) two weeks ago. Washed off more pesticides off them than I did anything else I bought at that farmers market...
I'd be curious to know how you know this. How did you measure the amount of pesticides washed off? What pesticides were they?
The amount of scrubbing required to remove it from the fruit. When my fruit is supposed to be purpleish and it is more like... lavender... that is a lot of pesticides. Grew. Up. On. An. Orchard.
Random fact. Symbicort smells almost identical to pesticides they put on oranges.
Next.
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I buy organic apples because the couples times I bought conventional ones, they had a bitter aftertaste (always pink ladies). Otherwise, I don't bother...0
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Smaller and less juicy among other things, most blind taste tests end up with non-organic veggies and fruit being chosen as tasting better.
Can you be specific about the tests? A link or some type of reference? I've only seen a couple of taste tests between organic and non-organic and they showed no significant difference in taste or nutritrient content.
I don't have time for that, I've also seen experiments where they label the organic as"non-Organic" and non-Organic as "organic" and people choose the "organic"(so actually non-organic) 100% of the time as being better tasting. That tells me that it's mostly a mental thing.
Most people don't eat organic because of taste. That's more a reason to eat local because it's fresher.
Right, the peaches I get from the farm stand blow away the peaches I no longer buy from the supermarket.
And I've never had a banana in the US as good as the bananas I had in Costa Rica.
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I don't generally buy organic, but can the non-organic people either cite their sources or stop making unverified claims? Do you have anything to offer besides sneering at hipsters?0
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kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Smaller and less juicy among other things, most blind taste tests end up with non-organic veggies and fruit being chosen as tasting better.
Can you be specific about the tests? A link or some type of reference? I've only seen a couple of taste tests between organic and non-organic and they showed no significant difference in taste or nutritrient content.
I don't have time for that, I've also seen experiments where they label the organic as"non-Organic" and non-Organic as "organic" and people choose the "organic"(so actually non-organic) 100% of the time as being better tasting. That tells me that it's mostly a mental thing.
Most people don't eat organic because of taste. That's more a reason to eat local because it's fresher.
Right, the peaches I get from the farm stand blow away the peaches I no longer buy from the supermarket.
And I've never had a banana in the US as good as the bananas I had in Costa Rica.
You've had a good banana? O.o This sounds mythical. Like a unicorn. :P0 -
I am a backyard ogranic gardener and have used small amounts of BT a few times per growing season for cabbage worms. As it kills pests it is a pesticide, but:
Less Toxic Insecticides
...Microbial insecticides contain microorganisms (viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, or nematodes) or their by-products. Microbial insecticides are especially valuable because their toxicity to nontarget animals and humans is extremely low.
Insecticidal products comprised of a single species of microorganism may be active against a wide variety of insects or group of related insects (such as caterpillars) or they may be effective against only one or a few species. Most are very specific. Since there is such a narrow range of insects killed, they spare the beneficial insects almost entirely.
Bacillus thuringiensis products are the most widely used microbial insecticides in the United States. They are commonly known as Bt. Different subspecies of Bt are effective against different groups of insects or their larvae.
Read more: http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/pests/pesticide/hgic2770.html
BT is acceptable in organic gardening.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/xmas/pesticides/labels/Roundup-orig-max-msds.pdf
Roundup...practically non-toxic to mammals...many chemicals on the "approved" organic list will be FAR more toxic than this, but not knowing what the chemicals are actually used for, it's hard to give a direct comparison, use for use.
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I've buying buying potatoes organic or local (we don't have huge farms like this here) since I read this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/25/magazine/playing-god-in-the-garden.html
...Danny Forsyth laid out the dismal economics of potato farming for me one sweltering morning at the coffee shop in downtown Jerome, Idaho. Forsyth, 60, is a slight blue-eyed man with a small gray ponytail; he farms 3,000 acres of potatoes, corn and wheat, and he spoke about agricultural chemicals like a man desperate to kick a bad habit. ”None of us would use them if we had any choice,” he said glumly.
I asked him to walk me through a season’s regimen. It typically begins early in the spring with a soil fumigant; to control nematodes, many potato farmers douse their fields with a chemical toxic enough to kill every trace of microbial life in the soil. Then, at planting, a systemic insecticide (like Thimet) is applied to the soil; this will be absorbed by the young seedlings and, for several weeks, will kill any insect that eats their leaves. After planting, Forsyth puts down an herbicide — Sencor or Eptam — to ”clean” his field of all weeds. When the potato seedlings are six inches tall, an herbicide may be sprayed a second time to control weeds.
Idaho farmers like Forsyth farm in vast circles defined by the rotation of a pivot irrigation system, typically 135 acres to a circle; I’d seen them from 30,000 feet flying in, a grid of verdant green coins pressed into a desert of scrubby brown. Pesticides and fertilizers are simply added to the irrigation system, which on Forsyth’s farm draws most of its water from the nearby Snake River. Along with their water, Forsyth’s potatoes may receive 10 applications of chemical fertilizer during the growing season. Just before the rows close — when the leaves of one row of plants meet those of the next — he begins spraying Bravo, a fungicide, to control late blight, one of the biggest threats to the potato crop. (Late blight, which caused the Irish potato famine, is an airborne fungus that turns stored potatoes into rotting mush.) Blight is such a serious problem that the E.P.A. currently allows farmers to spray powerful fungicides that haven’t passed the usual approval process. Forsyth’s potatoes will receive eight applications of fungicide.
Twice each summer, Forsyth hires a crop duster to spray for aphids. Aphids are harmless in themselves, but they transmit the leafroll virus, which in Russet Burbank potatoes causes net necrosis, a brown spotting that will cause a processor to reject a whole crop. It happened to Forsyth last year. ”I lost 80,000 bags” — they’re a hundred pounds each — ”to net necrosis,” he said. ”Instead of getting $4.95 a bag, I had to take $2 a bag from the dehydrator, and I was lucky to get that.” Net necrosis is a purely cosmetic defect; yet because big buyers like McDonald’s believe (with good reason) that we don’t like to see brown spots in our fries, farmers like Danny Forsyth must spray their fields with some of the most toxic chemicals in use, including an organophosphate called Monitor*.
”Monitor is a deadly chemical,” Forsyth said. ”I won’t go into a field for four or five days after it’s been sprayed — even to fix a broken pivot.” That is, he would sooner lose a whole circle to drought than expose himself or an employee to Monitor, which has been found to cause neurological damage.
Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/25/magazine/playing-god-in-the-garden.html
*Monitor has since been withdrawn from the market.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »I am a backyard ogranic gardener and have used small amounts of BT a few times per growing season for cabbage worms. As it kills pests it is a pesticide, but:
Less Toxic Insecticides
...Microbial insecticides contain microorganisms (viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, or nematodes) or their by-products. Microbial insecticides are especially valuable because their toxicity to nontarget animals and humans is extremely low.
Insecticidal products comprised of a single species of microorganism may be active against a wide variety of insects or group of related insects (such as caterpillars) or they may be effective against only one or a few species. Most are very specific. Since there is such a narrow range of insects killed, they spare the beneficial insects almost entirely.
Bacillus thuringiensis products are the most widely used microbial insecticides in the United States. They are commonly known as Bt. Different subspecies of Bt are effective against different groups of insects or their larvae.
Read more: http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/pests/pesticide/hgic2770.html
BT is acceptable in organic gardening.
wouldn't it be awesome if you could make a plant that produces this stuff on its own?0
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