Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Food Addiction - A Different Perspective
Options
Replies
-
PeachyCarol wrote: »Here's the issue I take with conflating foods lighting up with them being addictive -- isn't the process of addiction more complicated than merely having pleasure centers light up?
If this is related to my post, I totally agree and tried to say as much. My point was that even if that were significant, sugar is not unique. (And indeed of course we find caloric food pleasurable, that seems an obvious benefit to survival over human history.)On another note, substances of addiction include both substance and behavioral aspects when it comes to being addicted to them. I think, at least when it comes to alcohol, that it's possible to have a problem with the behavior side of things without having the substance issue. I posit that those who are able, like @kshama2001, to move onto moderation, are able to do so because of this.
This is what I think too.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »Here's the issue I take with conflating foods lighting up with them being addictive -- isn't the process of addiction more complicated than merely having pleasure centers light up?
If this is related to my post, I totally agree and tried to say as much. My point was that even if that were significant, sugar is not unique. (And indeed of course we find caloric food pleasurable, that seems an obvious benefit to survival over human history.)On another note, substances of addiction include both substance and behavioral aspects when it comes to being addicted to them. I think, at least when it comes to alcohol, that it's possible to have a problem with the behavior side of things without having the substance issue. I posit that those who are able, like @kshama2001, to move onto moderation, are able to do so because of this.
This is what I think too.
Sorry if you made that point and missed it Lemur! My son is on team speak in Minecraft right now and I can barely hear myself think!0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »This brings me back to the point of this thread. Issues with food, following the science presented here, seeing addiction as a behavioral construct, offers hope to the person suffering of moving past their issues into a recovery of moderation, and not living a life where they must permanently abstain from certain foods/food groups.
The question is: how do you convince someone of this? I'm thinking of a family member, age 60+, who insists that she is addicted to M&M's (and the like) and will never conquer this addiction without completely abstaining from it, which she has no interest in doing. Because she's tried to abstain, finds it unrealistic, and goes right back to the compulsive overeating behavior. It's an endless tape loop. And really tiring for those who have to listen to it.
(Which sounds harsh, I love her, I really do...)
0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »On another note, substances of addiction include both substance and behavioral aspects when it comes to being addicted to them. I think, at least when it comes to alcohol, that it's possible to have a problem with the behavior side of things without having the substance issue. I posit that those who are able, like @kshama2001, to move onto moderation, are able to do so because of this.
This brings me back to the point of this thread. Issues with food, following the science presented here, seeing addiction as a behavioral construct, offers hope to the person suffering of moving past their issues into a recovery of moderation, and not living a life where they must permanently abstain from certain foods/food groups.
This is probably why I vigorously defend those who think they have food addiction issues - I clearly had a problem with alcohol, which was helped with cognitive behavioral therapy type approaches, and I recognize many of the same patterns, cravings, and solutions with my relationship with food.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »On another note, substances of addiction include both substance and behavioral aspects when it comes to being addicted to them. I think, at least when it comes to alcohol, that it's possible to have a problem with the behavior side of things without having the substance issue. I posit that those who are able, like @kshama2001, to move onto moderation, are able to do so because of this.
This brings me back to the point of this thread. Issues with food, following the science presented here, seeing addiction as a behavioral construct, offers hope to the person suffering of moving past their issues into a recovery of moderation, and not living a life where they must permanently abstain from certain foods/food groups.
This is probably why I vigorously defend those who think they have food addiction issues - I clearly had a problem with alcohol, which was helped with cognitive behavioral therapy type approaches, and I recognize many of the same patterns, cravings, and solutions with my relationship with food.
However... there needs to be a distinction made.
And this is where the issue lies.
The distinction is really important.
If you abstain without addressing the fact that you have a behavioral issue, which is what a lot of people do because they assume they're addicted to foods as a substance,then you will still have the underlying issue.
This is why I argue against using the term without a clinical diagnosis.
Because to me blaming the substance goes against the science and doesn't address the issue.
For the purpose of the person needing help, no it does not matter -- if they plan to take a behavior modification approach -- that they want to call themselves addicted, because they are addressing the root of the problem.
At the end of the day, though, too often, most people colloquially use "addiction" to avoid facing the behavioral aspect of their problem.
Hence, this thread.0 -
This looks interesting - off for a walk so haven't read it yet: Natural Rewards, Neuroplasticity, and Non-Drug Addictions0
-
kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »On another note, substances of addiction include both substance and behavioral aspects when it comes to being addicted to them. I think, at least when it comes to alcohol, that it's possible to have a problem with the behavior side of things without having the substance issue. I posit that those who are able, like @kshama2001, to move onto moderation, are able to do so because of this.
This brings me back to the point of this thread. Issues with food, following the science presented here, seeing addiction as a behavioral construct, offers hope to the person suffering of moving past their issues into a recovery of moderation, and not living a life where they must permanently abstain from certain foods/food groups.
This is probably why I vigorously defend those who think they have food addiction issues - I clearly had a problem with alcohol, which was helped with cognitive behavioral therapy type approaches, and I recognize many of the same patterns, cravings, and solutions with my relationship with food.
The problem is that the dominant (I would say overwhelming) use of the term "addiction" is for something that can't be overcome (other than through abstinence), so telling people "oh, it's an addiction" doesn't seem likely to encourage the kinds of work that likely can be helpful.
(I also really don't think it's the same, although I think one can have issues with alcohol that are akin to the kinds of things we are talking about with food, and I do think eating can become like an addiction -- although IMO that requires much more severe behavior than feeling like you can't stop overeating sweets, and is more like something that you'd find with a super morbidly obese person who has decided that nothing else in her life matters.)0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »On another note, substances of addiction include both substance and behavioral aspects when it comes to being addicted to them. I think, at least when it comes to alcohol, that it's possible to have a problem with the behavior side of things without having the substance issue. I posit that those who are able, like @kshama2001, to move onto moderation, are able to do so because of this.
This brings me back to the point of this thread. Issues with food, following the science presented here, seeing addiction as a behavioral construct, offers hope to the person suffering of moving past their issues into a recovery of moderation, and not living a life where they must permanently abstain from certain foods/food groups.
This is probably why I vigorously defend those who think they have food addiction issues - I clearly had a problem with alcohol, which was helped with cognitive behavioral therapy type approaches, and I recognize many of the same patterns, cravings, and solutions with my relationship with food.
The problem is that the dominant (I would say overwhelming) use of the term "addiction" is for something that can't be overcome (other than through abstinence), so telling people "oh, it's an addiction" doesn't seem likely to encourage the kinds of work that likely can be helpful.
(I also really don't think it's the same, although I think one can have issues with alcohol that are akin to the kinds of things we are talking about with food, and I do think eating can become like an addiction -- although IMO that requires much more severe behavior than feeling like you can't stop overeating sweets, and is more like something that you'd find with a super morbidly obese person who has decided that nothing else in her life matters.)
No one on Team Addiction says "oh, it's an addiction" as if that means there is nothing that can be done - we say what has worked for us. It's Team Not Addiction that tends to express the view that calling issues with food an addiction is an excuse to not change behaviors.
Self medicating with food was a very similar neighborhood as self medicating with alcohol was for me.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »On another note, substances of addiction include both substance and behavioral aspects when it comes to being addicted to them. I think, at least when it comes to alcohol, that it's possible to have a problem with the behavior side of things without having the substance issue. I posit that those who are able, like @kshama2001, to move onto moderation, are able to do so because of this.
This brings me back to the point of this thread. Issues with food, following the science presented here, seeing addiction as a behavioral construct, offers hope to the person suffering of moving past their issues into a recovery of moderation, and not living a life where they must permanently abstain from certain foods/food groups.
This is probably why I vigorously defend those who think they have food addiction issues - I clearly had a problem with alcohol, which was helped with cognitive behavioral therapy type approaches, and I recognize many of the same patterns, cravings, and solutions with my relationship with food.
The problem is that the dominant (I would say overwhelming) use of the term "addiction" is for something that can't be overcome (other than through abstinence), so telling people "oh, it's an addiction" doesn't seem likely to encourage the kinds of work that likely can be helpful.
(I also really don't think it's the same, although I think one can have issues with alcohol that are akin to the kinds of things we are talking about with food, and I do think eating can become like an addiction -- although IMO that requires much more severe behavior than feeling like you can't stop overeating sweets, and is more like something that you'd find with a super morbidly obese person who has decided that nothing else in her life matters.)
No one on Team Addiction says "oh, it's an addiction" as if that means there is nothing that can be done - we say what has worked for us. It's Team Not Addiction that tends to express the view that calling issues with food an addiction is an excuse to not change behaviors.
Self medicating with food was a very similar neighborhood as self medicating with alcohol was for me.
I don't think either "team" is saying what you're saying. I think the point that is coming up is that a lot of people use the term "addiction" as a way of justifying not doing anything about it. It's about intrinsic v. extrinsic motivation and world views.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »On another note, substances of addiction include both substance and behavioral aspects when it comes to being addicted to them. I think, at least when it comes to alcohol, that it's possible to have a problem with the behavior side of things without having the substance issue. I posit that those who are able, like @kshama2001, to move onto moderation, are able to do so because of this.
This brings me back to the point of this thread. Issues with food, following the science presented here, seeing addiction as a behavioral construct, offers hope to the person suffering of moving past their issues into a recovery of moderation, and not living a life where they must permanently abstain from certain foods/food groups.
This is probably why I vigorously defend those who think they have food addiction issues - I clearly had a problem with alcohol, which was helped with cognitive behavioral therapy type approaches, and I recognize many of the same patterns, cravings, and solutions with my relationship with food.
The problem is that the dominant (I would say overwhelming) use of the term "addiction" is for something that can't be overcome (other than through abstinence), so telling people "oh, it's an addiction" doesn't seem likely to encourage the kinds of work that likely can be helpful.
(I also really don't think it's the same, although I think one can have issues with alcohol that are akin to the kinds of things we are talking about with food, and I do think eating can become like an addiction -- although IMO that requires much more severe behavior than feeling like you can't stop overeating sweets, and is more like something that you'd find with a super morbidly obese person who has decided that nothing else in her life matters.)
No one on Team Addiction says "oh, it's an addiction" as if that means there is nothing that can be done - we say what has worked for us. It's Team Not Addiction that tends to express the view that calling issues with food an addiction is an excuse to not change behaviors.
Self medicating with food was a very similar neighborhood as self medicating with alcohol was for me.
I think this post is verging into divisive territory. You're making generalizations that aren't necessarily true.
Why don't we stop arguing about what the different "teams" have meant, hmm? Because I don't think you understand the difference here with the substance vs. behavior argument and that it's not about whether people are arguing "addiction" and who gets to win or not.
This is about the science.
The science does not support addiction to food as a substance. Anyone claiming to be addicted to food as a substance should be disabused of the notion because it's counterproductive to them effecting the behavioral change needed to address their underlying issue with the problem food.
Please note that my statements apply to most of the people coming here to the boards. The people with true addictions who need to seek outside help? Probably a fraction of those claiming to be addicted.0 -
It doesn't matter if food isn't addictive as a substance because behavioral addiction. So when people come here asking for help with vague "addiction," let's focus on behavior, shall we?0
-
I know lots of have said it, but the article and your comments are empowering and greatly appreciated. Habits, conditioning, emotional triggers at times seem overwhelming but to know that no particular food is addictive, that puts the power back in my hands.
Thank you.0 -
vivmom2014 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This brings me back to the point of this thread. Issues with food, following the science presented here, seeing addiction as a behavioral construct, offers hope to the person suffering of moving past their issues into a recovery of moderation, and not living a life where they must permanently abstain from certain foods/food groups.
The question is: how do you convince someone of this? I'm thinking of a family member, age 60+, who insists that she is addicted to M&M's (and the like) and will never conquer this addiction without completely abstaining from it, which she has no interest in doing. Because she's tried to abstain, finds it unrealistic, and goes right back to the compulsive overeating behavior. It's an endless tape loop. And really tiring for those who have to listen to it.
(Which sounds harsh, I love her, I really do...)
You can't convince her (or anyone else) of it. They have to get to a place within themselves where they're either desperate enough to go ahead and abstain, or they decide that they are willing to experiment with moderation.
The thought of abstinence is really overwhelming for most of us who have an actual addiction or a set of unhealthy eating patterns. I don't blame her for being uninterested.
If she's not ready to/not interested in trying to abstain, that's fine. You can let her know that's fine. In that case, often the best approach is what those of us in substance abuse treatment call "harm reduction" (if you're already familiar with this, then I apologize for repeating the info).
In harm reduction, you start with the person right where they are, in that place where abstaining is simply not an option, and you instead focus on ways of minimizing the harm they are doing to themselves by continuing to use drugs/eat M&Ms/whatever.
In the case of overeating, that could mean trying to eat fewer sweets. It could mean occasionally trying substitutes for M&Ms without eliminating M&Ms (low-sugar chocolate pudding with a generous hit of fat-free whipped cream on top; fresh fruit with a tablespoon of peanut butter). It could mean taking a 15-minute walk twice a day.
I posted a thread elsewhere on these boards about strategies I learned in recovering from drug addiction that I've found to be effective in recovering from unhealthy eating habits. None of the strategies necessarily assume total abstinence. You could try sitting down with her and working out a couple of strategies that she thinks might be helpful in cutting back.
OK, found the thread. See if any of this might be helpful for her: community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10269645/lessons-i-learned-as-an-addict-translated-to-lessons-in-healthy-eating#latest
As an aside, I have to say there is sure a lot of complete misunderstanding in this thread about what AA/NA/the other 12-step programs are really about. It's a little frustrating, but I won't derail the thread with it.
Thanks so much @Caitwn for this thoughtful answer. And, yes, I did see your other thread and it is filled with good information as well. I really appreciate your taking the time to reply to me specifically.
The person I mentioned also has a drinking problem and is utterly overwhelmed at the idea of abstaining from that forever. It is used as a coping mechanism due to oppressive family issues (a family member w/ mental illness) and she's not deluded one bit about why she's drinking and that she's drinking too much. At any rate, thanks again for your thoughts and insights.
0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »On another note, substances of addiction include both substance and behavioral aspects when it comes to being addicted to them. I think, at least when it comes to alcohol, that it's possible to have a problem with the behavior side of things without having the substance issue. I posit that those who are able, like @kshama2001, to move onto moderation, are able to do so because of this.
This brings me back to the point of this thread. Issues with food, following the science presented here, seeing addiction as a behavioral construct, offers hope to the person suffering of moving past their issues into a recovery of moderation, and not living a life where they must permanently abstain from certain foods/food groups.
This is probably why I vigorously defend those who think they have food addiction issues - I clearly had a problem with alcohol, which was helped with cognitive behavioral therapy type approaches, and I recognize many of the same patterns, cravings, and solutions with my relationship with food.
The problem is that the dominant (I would say overwhelming) use of the term "addiction" is for something that can't be overcome (other than through abstinence), so telling people "oh, it's an addiction" doesn't seem likely to encourage the kinds of work that likely can be helpful.
(I also really don't think it's the same, although I think one can have issues with alcohol that are akin to the kinds of things we are talking about with food, and I do think eating can become like an addiction -- although IMO that requires much more severe behavior than feeling like you can't stop overeating sweets, and is more like something that you'd find with a super morbidly obese person who has decided that nothing else in her life matters.)
No one on Team Addiction says "oh, it's an addiction" as if that means there is nothing that can be done - we say what has worked for us. It's Team Not Addiction that tends to express the view that calling issues with food an addiction is an excuse to not change behaviors.
That wasn't my point, although I think you are quite wrong about "no one" from what I've seen on MFP.
I think calling it an addiction means you think it's NOT behavioral and that the only solution is abstinence in the vast majority of cases, as that's how the term is used normally--to mean there's something inherently wrong in the substance or you such that you simply cannot handle it.
Your position that "addiction" can be fixed through therapy or work on habits and the like I think is a good message for someone struggling with food stuff, but I don't think calling it addiction conveys that message.Self medicating with food was a very similar neighborhood as self medicating with alcohol was for me.
Not for me, and that's why what you are talking about with alcohol really doesn't sound like what people do traditionally call alcoholism or addiction. (And I'm probably more open-minded than most to the idea that some can drink again after being an addict based on my experience with people in the relevant world. And I don't believe that many of us can.)
Ugh--I'm running off, so this may not be written as carefully as I'd like. Will clarify later if needed.0 -
If you believe there is a team addiction and a team not addiction, I'm afraid we're just arguing and not communicating. I'd prefer to communicate so that people are invested in an understanding, over being invested in winning an argument.kshama2001 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »On another note, substances of addiction include both substance and behavioral aspects when it comes to being addicted to them. I think, at least when it comes to alcohol, that it's possible to have a problem with the behavior side of things without having the substance issue. I posit that those who are able, like @kshama2001, to move onto moderation, are able to do so because of this.
This brings me back to the point of this thread. Issues with food, following the science presented here, seeing addiction as a behavioral construct, offers hope to the person suffering of moving past their issues into a recovery of moderation, and not living a life where they must permanently abstain from certain foods/food groups.
This is probably why I vigorously defend those who think they have food addiction issues - I clearly had a problem with alcohol, which was helped with cognitive behavioral therapy type approaches, and I recognize many of the same patterns, cravings, and solutions with my relationship with food.
The problem is that the dominant (I would say overwhelming) use of the term "addiction" is for something that can't be overcome (other than through abstinence), so telling people "oh, it's an addiction" doesn't seem likely to encourage the kinds of work that likely can be helpful.
(I also really don't think it's the same, although I think one can have issues with alcohol that are akin to the kinds of things we are talking about with food, and I do think eating can become like an addiction -- although IMO that requires much more severe behavior than feeling like you can't stop overeating sweets, and is more like something that you'd find with a super morbidly obese person who has decided that nothing else in her life matters.)
No one on Team Addiction says "oh, it's an addiction" as if that means there is nothing that can be done - we say what has worked for us. It's Team Not Addiction that tends to express the view that calling issues with food an addiction is an excuse to not change behaviors.
Self medicating with food was a very similar neighborhood as self medicating with alcohol was for me.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »It doesn't matter if food isn't addictive as a substance because behavioral addiction. So when people come here asking for help with vague "addiction," let's focus on behavior, shall we?
It would be great if that worked, but before being able to break an addiction, one has to take responsibility for it and the OP who believes it's the food's fault because it's addictive is not taking responsibility. We first have to discuss their views on what that means for them and they have to own the "addiction."0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »While I have no confusion about whether or not alcohol once was a serious problem for me, I do not like to give myself labels such as "Alcoholic" or "Addict." I answered this quiz from the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence as if I were still in my drinking days and scored a 20:
Am I Alcoholic?
Understanding Your Score:
A "no" is scored 0, and a "yes" is scored 1. The score above reflects the total number of questions that were answered “yes”. A score of 2 or more indicates that you may be at greater risk for alcoholism.
If you answered “yes” to between 2 and 8 questions, you should consider arranging a personal meeting with a professional who has experience in the evaluation of alcohol problems. You should consider contacting the NCADD affiliate office nearest to you. A representative will be happy to assist you in the scheduling of a professional evaluation.
If you answered “yes” to more than 8 questions, you may have a serious level of alcohol-related problems requiring immediate attention and possible treatment. You should seek professional guidance. You should consider contacting the NCADD affiliate office nearest to you. A representative will be happy to assist you in the scheduling of a professional evaluation.
I believe some foods can cause addictive like behaviours in some. I realize there are no true food adictictions, but there can be addiction like problems caused by some foods for some people
I took the quiz about drinking but substituted out the word "drinking" and added "consumption of too many sugary foods" and then did the quiz. I scored a 15.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 390 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 922 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions