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Food Addiction - A Different Perspective
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Glad this thread came back. Even though I was morbidly obese, I do not think I have addictive behaviors towards foods. I have never binged. I use words like craving and compulsion. I very much enjoyed Duhigg's book on the Power of Habit this past week. I do have to watch that I don't fall in to old habit patterns around eating, and unthinkingly eat more than I need. I like Duhigg's suggestion that we not even try and eliminate old habits, but simply redirect them. His premise in the book however that the triggers and rewards are so highly individual that there is no "one size fits all" solution.
I know that I am triggered right after work, and I disrupt my old habit by eating a small snack in the late afternoon. Duhigg changed his afternoon snack habit by socializing instead.
Some are triggered by sad events, others in happy social ones.
The therapist on my weight loss team, a lovely slim woman, pointed out poignantly that it's not just the obese who might have disordered thinking around food. I got the sense she was speaking from experience.
P.S. Duhigg offers some suggestions why AA has proven so effective.
P.S.S. I especially like the willpower and muscle analogy in his book. Great read for those looking to understand/change habits.
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I think this thread can be tremendously useful as a way to think through all of our viewpoints and experiences, whether we ultimately agree or not.
Speaking just for myself, I finally sorted out a way to be comfortable with the "addiction" terminology, as I just didn't want to spend time here in the endless cycle of (a) seeing someone label themselves a food addict, (b) informing them that they aren't addicted to food, (c) dealing with the fact that they understandably get defensive about that, and (d) seeing yet another thread moderated into oblivion along with the distribution of pointless warnings.
I still don't believe food is addictive because to date there is simply no evidence pointing to that fact. BUT - there IS good evidence indicating that people can get trapped in a behavioral addiction to the act of eating itself.
That works for me conceptually, because it removes the need to debate whether any specific food group is the supposed culprit, it acknowledges the fact that people can and do use eating behaviors for some of the very same reasons that addicts use drugs, and it also acknowledges the fact that breaking those patterns of dependence on the behavior is challenging as hell.
So yes, I still twitch when I see someone say they're "addicted" to sugar or carbs or M&Ms or cheddar popcorn or...whatever. But when I keep the "eating addiction" concept in my mind, I can be a lot more gentle when I engage that person in discussion - because the challenges and possible solutions to the issue are all congruent with what we know about addiction. And I can focus on that rather than confronting the person about their choice of words and ending up in a derailed conversation that doesn't end up being helpful.
Agreed. I also agree with this in mind that the focus on advice should be on behavior modification strategies and not on abstinence unless it's a temporary measure used while behavior modification is taking place.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »It doesn't matter if food isn't addictive as a substance because behavioral addiction. So when people come here asking for help with vague "addiction," let's focus on behavior, shall we?
You seem to miss that most people colloquially calling it "addiction" link that in their minds with the substance being the problem.
That issue needs to be tackled, and it's disingenuous to act as if that idea is not reinforced by other posters here.
The purpose of this thread, to reiterate, is not to have an ongoing "how have all the previous debates on addiction gone" debate.
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PeachyCarol wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »It doesn't matter if food isn't addictive as a substance because behavioral addiction. So when people come here asking for help with vague "addiction," let's focus on behavior, shall we?
You seem to miss that most people colloquially calling it "addiction" link that in their minds with the substance being the problem.
That issue needs to be tackled, and it's disingenuous to act as if that idea is not reinforced by other posters here.
The purpose of this thread, to reiterate, is not to have an ongoing "how have all the previous debates on addiction gone" debate.
+1
Same point I was trying to make up thread.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »While I have no confusion about whether or not alcohol once was a serious problem for me, I do not like to give myself labels such as "Alcoholic" or "Addict." I answered this quiz from the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence as if I were still in my drinking days and scored a 20:
Am I Alcoholic?
Understanding Your Score:
A "no" is scored 0, and a "yes" is scored 1. The score above reflects the total number of questions that were answered “yes”. A score of 2 or more indicates that you may be at greater risk for alcoholism.
If you answered “yes” to between 2 and 8 questions, you should consider arranging a personal meeting with a professional who has experience in the evaluation of alcohol problems. You should consider contacting the NCADD affiliate office nearest to you. A representative will be happy to assist you in the scheduling of a professional evaluation.
If you answered “yes” to more than 8 questions, you may have a serious level of alcohol-related problems requiring immediate attention and possible treatment. You should seek professional guidance. You should consider contacting the NCADD affiliate office nearest to you. A representative will be happy to assist you in the scheduling of a professional evaluation.
I believe some foods can cause addictive like behaviours in some. I realize there are no true food adictictions, but there can be addiction like problems caused by some foods for some people
I took the quiz about drinking but substituted out the word "drinking" and added "consumption of too many sugary foods" and then did the quiz. I scored a 15.
I did the same only I called it "self soothing with food" and got a 19.0 -
I didn't read all 12 pages, so sorry if this has been addressed already.
The thing that tends to bother me about these debates is that I know it's possibility to be wholly psychologically addicted to something, and not have a physical dependancy. Treatment centers will diagnose and treat someone as an addict, without them ever having developed a physical addiction on their drug of choice.
It seems like many want to define "addiction" as mere a physical dependance on a substance (in this case food), and then say that addiction isn't possible. Of course, by those parameters, they are correct. But when you take into account the idea of psychological dependence, then that makes the matter much less black and white.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »It doesn't matter if food isn't addictive as a substance because behavioral addiction. So when people come here asking for help with vague "addiction," let's focus on behavior, shall we?
You seem to miss that most people colloquially calling it "addiction" link that in their minds with the substance being the problem.
That issue needs to be tackled, and it's disingenuous to act as if that idea is not reinforced by other posters here.
The purpose of this thread, to reiterate, is not to have an ongoing "how have all the previous debates on addiction gone" debate.
This is a big assumption, to say "most." At best, perhaps "some" would fit? This is only one example, but there are likely many others: I've shared before in another topic about a friend of mine who ate sugar right out of the bag, and even put extra teaspoons of it in her regular Pepsi, as well as on Frosted Flakes, in savory sauces, on eggs, etc. When she told me this, she said that she realized she needed help, but at no point did she then (or even now, a year later) ever say it was the sugar's fault. Sugar didn't get the blame, even under those extreme behaviors. She definitely fully "blamed" herself.
And I think kshama2001 has a point. There are plenty of colloquialisms used here on MFP boards (and all over) that are not the focus of the actual question. It is probable that some people are sensitive to the word "addiction" due to either experiencing it personally, or knowing someone else to have experienced a substance addiction. That sensitivity is understandable, but I have noticed that it becomes the focus of a discussion, which then can drive off the person who asked about how to deal with their cravings/urges, etc.
To give an example, I personally am sensitive when someone uses the phrase "OCD" colloquially. I won't go into the reasons for that here. But, I also do not feel the urge to post a response to someone who uses "OCD" in a post, when I understand the colloquial phrase does not necessarily mean the same thing as the clinical phrase.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Self medicating with food was a very similar neighborhood as self medicating with alcohol was for me.
Not for me, and that's why what you are talking about with alcohol really doesn't sound like what people do traditionally call alcoholism or addiction. (And I'm probably more open-minded than most to the idea that some can drink again after being an addict based on my experience with people in the relevant world. And I don't believe that many of us can.)
Ugh--I'm running off, so this may not be written as carefully as I'd like. Will clarify later if needed.
Is it your position that because I am now able to moderate that I wasn't really an alcoholic? My mother would certainly disagree with you, as would my ex-husband, if he's done something about his own alcoholism since we divorced.
That's why I posted the quiz from the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence. NCADD says "If you answered “yes” to more than 8 questions, you may have a serious level of alcohol-related problems requiring immediate attention and possible treatment. You should seek professional guidance. You should consider contacting the NCADD affiliate office nearest to you. A representative will be happy to assist you in the scheduling of a professional evaluation." I answered Yes to 20 questions, including # 15.
I'm not suggesting people who have a drinking problem should look to be able to moderate in the future, no more than I would tell people who are triggered by M&Ms that they should simply moderate them. In fact, I'm distressed when someone looking for help with their "M&M addiction" is told this. (This is not directed at you personally; I'm referring to saying "Learn to moderate" and stopping there, which you don't do.)
While I think a lot of people can probably learn to moderate added sugar in general, I don't think being told to moderate a trigger food at the point in time when it is a trigger food is helpful.
I think what Carol said in her OP, and I believe you have expressed similar, is a great response:
(Plus all the behavioral stuff.)Personally, I just needed time. Time away from the foods I had trouble with and time to reframe my thinking. Once my head was on straight, and I stopped feeling guilt surrounding my consumption of food, I was ready to eat what used to be problematic food (ice cream, brownies, cheese) again. I no longer consider myself "addicted" and I can eat these things in moderation. I also incorporated exercise into my life and find it's an excellent stress reliever!0 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »This really has been cleaned up!! Wasn't it 40 pages before ???
14... but this was the second cleaning.
Thanks psuLemon. 40 to 14 pages? I don't think even the peep master cleanse system can remove toxins that hard.
On topic - I've always wondered what, besides attempting to avoid admitting fault, is the point of using normal physical dependence / addiction models towards the problem of food addiction. While I don't necessarily agree, the AA and many other models of addictive substance treatment rely on getting through physical withdrawal safely, and then never consuming the substance again. I don't see a way to really work this with foods. Nobody can abstain from having sugar in their system.
Not to hijack but over the two clean ups it was about 4ish pages of post removed.0 -
IMO (based on my own experiences) food became a coping method that covered up the underlying cause. Eating distracted me from letting my thoughts go to places that were dark and terrifying. Food was readily available...affordable...more acceptable than drugs.
After all of those years as using food for my drug of choice it has been a struggle to change my thought process. At various times I have given in to that old behavior. The urges are there...most likely they always will be.
It would be easier to call it addiction I suppose then I wouldn't have had to face all of those dark and terrifying places in my mind instead of having to finally face them.
I love this and appreciate you sharing your story. I think this is probably closer to the issue that mkst people have. I have known many people who use food as a coping mechanism. Its also probably the associated dopamine released due to food having a comforting effect.
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IMO (based on my own experiences) food became a coping method that covered up the underlying cause. Eating distracted me from letting my thoughts go to places that were dark and terrifying. Food was readily available...affordable...more acceptable than drugs.
After all of those years as using food for my drug of choice it has been a struggle to change my thought process. At various times I have given in to that old behavior. The urges are there...most likely they always will be.
It would be easier to call it addiction I suppose then I wouldn't have had to face all of those dark and terrifying places in my mind instead of having to finally face them.
I love this and appreciate you sharing your story. I think this is probably closer to the issue that mkst people have. I have known many people who use food as a coping mechanism. Its also probably the associated dopamine released due to food having a comforting effect.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I also used food as a coping mechanism, and I started early as a child. I think children are limited in their ability to cope, so they often reach for flawed forms of coping. In childhood, the association between food and nurturing is still quite strong as well.0 -
Shell, your post made me think. I sort of came to where I am a little differently in that I confronted my inability to deal with my emotions before I dealt with the behaviors.
This brought up something I learned coming into my own weight loss. I had two separate components to deal with -- well, really three. One was facing the fact that I wasn't addicted to the foods. The other was learning how to constructively dealing with emotion.
The third was more insidious. I had a habit. I was used to consuming large quantities of food and used to eating at certain times and in certain situations because I had come to associate them with food.
I had to employ some strategies to break those habits. I started eating very slowly and chewing very thoroughly so that I could learn to feel my hunger signals.
I rearranged our furniture so I no longer associated sitting down a certain place with my afternoon snack. (A bit drastic, but our living room needed a pick-me-up
)
I also made good use of water and sugar-free gum to keep my mouth busy!
I'm big on personal mantras. I became fond of "This is all the food my body NEEDS right now." I'd repeat that in my head, even if I had to scream it to myself over that lying liar voice who'd be telling me it was okay to have more.0 -
IMO (based on my own experiences) food became a coping method that covered up the underlying cause. Eating distracted me from letting my thoughts go to places that were dark and terrifying. Food was readily available...affordable...more acceptable than drugs.
After all of those years as using food for my drug of choice it has been a struggle to change my thought process. At various times I have given in to that old behavior. The urges are there...most likely they always will be.
It would be easier to call it addiction I suppose then I wouldn't have had to face all of those dark and terrifying places in my mind instead of having to finally face them.
I love this and appreciate you sharing your story. I think this is probably closer to the issue that mkst people have. I have known many people who use food as a coping mechanism. Its also probably the associated dopamine released due to food having a comforting effect.
Eating releases serotonin, anticipating food releases dopamine. A common misconception is that dopamine is the reward neurotransmitter, but it is better called the reward anticipation neurotransmitter.
The difference can be seen in well in gambling - if dopamine only released with successful gambling, gambling would probably be more self-regulating as casinos work because most gambling averages to a loss. Yet people still get excited gambling, anticipating the next win.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Is it your position that because I am now able to moderate that I wasn't really an alcoholic?
I think lots of people abuse alcohol at times in their life without being alcoholics, and what you say sounds more like that to me, but as I said I'm more open minded about the topic than many, so I have no position. I do think that if you suggested that alcoholics can learn to moderate you'd -- obviously -- get lots of disagreement, and it's foolish to discuss addiction and what that means to people while pretending that it's assumed that addicts can learn to moderate. The vast majority of people who claim to be addicted believe that there's either something inherent in the substance (here, food) or wrong with them that makes them unable to moderate. They assume the response has to be the AA-type one. That's the point of calling it addiction, and when you agree it's addiction and not habit and the like, which can be dealt with in a lot of behavioral ways -- although I have no issue if someone decides to cut out their trigger foods or go low carb or whatever -- I think you are essentially telling them NOT to bother focusing on the habits. That, to me, is the point of disagreeing with the notion of food addiction, although I do think there are habit issues and that there are more limited categories of people who have eating issues that are addictions or similar to it.
Once again, if someone claimed to be addicted to beer and not wine no one would take them seriously. But when someone claims to have an issue with M&Ms and not sugar from the bowl or ice cream or oranges, that's precisely what they are doing. I have a hard time moderating when I have homemade baked goods in the house (although I've gotten much, much better), but zero problem with ice cream, which I can moderate easily, or packaged baked goods or candy, which I usually don't even like. I would make no sense to claim I'm addicted to homemade baked goods and storebought baked goods in that both are basically the same in terms of the ingredients. To contrast, I strongly dislike some wines and love others, and yet I'd have an equally difficult time moderating with them.That's why I posted the quiz from the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence. NCADD says "If you answered “yes” to more than 8 questions, you may have a serious level of alcohol-related problems requiring immediate attention and possible treatment.
Yes, but depending on when people take it that seems a ridiculously low level IMO. I recall seeing it for the first time in college and a huge percentage of people joked that it made them alcoholics. I was pretty sure I was, but I was able to deny it in part because my drinking behaviors seemed not that out of the ordinary in some ways.0 -
Christmas bump!0
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Bump.....0
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As they said in Silence of the Lambs, "I can smell your bump".0
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Since this thread is getting bumped, I thought it would be a good opportunity to share my experience with "food addiction" in light of the science on the issue.
Years ago, maybe 20ish? I thought I was surely addicted to carbs. The Carbohydrates Addicts Diet book really resonated with me. Following that plan, I was still eating carbs at my reward meal, but I was thinking along the lines of being addicted.
I didn't really lose weight, which had been my goal.
Going further into the addiction model, I completely gave up all starchy carbs and dairy and went paleo, following Neanderthin.
Oh, I felt all the wonderful things you're supposed to feel when you "give up sugar"! At that point in time, I had to forgo dairy because I was nursing my daughter and she was intolerant. But I missed it.
As soon as she weaned, I switched to Atkins.
I stayed low carb through a subsequent pregnancy and nursing that baby, but then stress hit.
And a funny thing happened. I started overeating fatty foods like egg salad, nuts, avocado, chicken legs,and cheese,
Interestingly, in rat studies, the other food that lights up the reward pathways in rats in addition to sugar is fat. Hyperpalatability ftw!
Throughout all these years (about 10) of low carbing, I still stayed at least 20 pounds over the highest normal BMI for my height. I was still eating too much food.
And therin was the underlying problem. Too much food. It took me looking within myself -- a sometimes painful process -- to find answers to why I overate. It took time to break habits of eating. Some habits of eating at certain times and under certain situations had become ingrained from me using eating over the years as a coping mechanism.
When you think about it, we all are able to regulate our behaviors around many things in our lives that light up our reward pathways -- sex, time with our children, interacting with our pets.
I'm sure my reward pathways still light up when I have chocolate or cheese. The thing is, now that I've done the work on my behavior patterns and habits, I'm able to regulate my consumption of them much in the same way I'm able to be reasonable about everything else in my life that brings pleasure.
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PeachyCarol wrote: »Since this thread is getting bumped, I thought it would be a good opportunity to share my experience with "food addiction" in light of the science on the issue.
Years ago, maybe 20ish? I thought I was surely addicted to carbs. The Carbohydrates Addicts Diet book really resonated with me. Following that plan, I was still eating carbs at my reward meal, but I was thinking along the lines of being addicted.
I didn't really lose weight, which had been my goal.
Going further into the addiction model, I completely gave up all starchy carbs and dairy and went paleo, following Neanderthin.
Oh, I felt all the wonderful things you're supposed to feel when you "give up sugar"! At that point in time, I had to forgo dairy because I was nursing my daughter and she was intolerant. But I missed it.
As soon as she weaned, I switched to Atkins.
I stayed low carb through a subsequent pregnancy and nursing that baby, but then stress hit.
And a funny thing happened. I started overeating fatty foods like egg salad, nuts, avocado, chicken legs,and cheese,
Interestingly, in rat studies, the other food that lights up the reward pathways in rats in addition to sugar is fat. Hyperpalatability ftw!
Throughout all these years (about 10) of low carbing, I still stayed at least 20 pounds over the highest normal BMI for my height. I was still eating too much food.
And therin was the underlying problem. Too much food. It took me looking within myself -- a sometimes painful process -- to find answers to why I overate. It took time to break habits of eating. Some habits of eating at certain times and under certain situations had become ingrained from me using eating over the years as a coping mechanism.
When you think about it, we all are able to regulate our behaviors around many things in our lives that light up our reward pathways -- sex, time with our children, interacting with our pets.
I'm sure my reward pathways still light up when I have chocolate or cheese. The thing is, now that I've done the work on my behavior patterns and habits, I'm able to regulate my consumption of them much in the same way I'm able to be reasonable about everything else in my life that brings pleasure.
Beautifully put carol!
Many of us have been through similar experiences and are now successful because we modified our behavior. I remember not being able to control myself around food, I would overeat every day. It got to a point where I also believed I had to be addicted! After putting in the work necessary, I realized I had the power to change . I also realized just how many excuses held me back . now I have been maintaining my goal weight for 2+ yrs so far and don't have to deprive myself of anything. I have the tools for long term success - portion control and moderation.0
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