Any advice on slimming down calves?

I tried to find posts relating to this, but failed.

I have large calves, partly from muscle, partly from fat. I will most likely always have larger than average calves; my whole family tends to have larger legs. I also have problems with circulation and varicose veins (I have already had some treatment for this, but my legs still swell.) I am not delusional, and I know that I am not going to be able to slim them down to normal sized calves (I will still always have to buy wide calf boots. Oh well.)

I know that losing weight will help slim down my calves, and I am in the process of doing just that--losing weight, getting healthier. I know that reducing sodium, upping potassium, and a healthy diet will help with swelling and retaining fluids in my calves.

I am using a stationary bicycle 4-5 times a week for 40-60 mins each session. Which can build calf muscles up.

I was wondering if anyone had any tips, or know of any low impact exercises that can help reduce calf size?

Sorry for the long winded post, and thank you in advance.
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Replies

  • jemhh
    jemhh Posts: 14,261 Member
    The world is pretty much made up of big-calved and small-calved people. It is difficult to switch from one group to the other. You can work on losing fat, as you already said, but actually getting your muscles to atrophy is difficult and (completely my opinion) silly. Enjoy your big calves. Continue to work on your overall fitness and they will be big shapely calves, which are great.
  • IsaackGMOON
    IsaackGMOON Posts: 3,358 Member
    You can't spot reduce fat. You have to lose weight everywhere.
  • VegasFit
    VegasFit Posts: 1,232 Member
    I've always had big calves although as I have lost weight they have slimmed down. Now I just think of them as strong and accept them and I've never really been a fan of boots anyways!
  • senecarr
    senecarr Posts: 5,377 Member
    Fork put downs and table push aways are generally the most you can do about fat, and you're never going to lose fat from a specific area of your choosing (unless you're paying a plastic surgeon).
    As for the idea of getting rid of actual muscle? I mean its you're body and you can do what you want, but for some reason the sentence "want to lose muscle" doesn't make full sense to me. I guess take the elevator more and stairs less? Keep your foot rigid when you walk?
  • BlahUnderpants
    BlahUnderpants Posts: 33 Member
    jemhh wrote: »
    The world is pretty much made up of big-calved and small-calved people. It is difficult to switch from one group to the other. You can work on losing fat, as you already said, but actually getting your muscles to atrophy is difficult and (completely my opinion) silly. Enjoy your big calves. Continue to work on your overall fitness and they will be big shapely calves, which are great.

    I don't mind my calves except the fact it is sooo hard to find boots that fit. My calves are the size of some people's thighs (mind you, I do know some pretty thin people.) Pants can also be an issue at times.

  • BlahUnderpants
    BlahUnderpants Posts: 33 Member
    You can't spot reduce fat. You have to lose weight everywhere.

    Yes, I realize this, but there are exercises that are better for toning certain areas. So I would start to incorporate them into my life.

    I suppose I should have phrased my question as such "What exercises are there to help tone my calves?"
  • jemhh
    jemhh Posts: 14,261 Member
    jemhh wrote: »
    The world is pretty much made up of big-calved and small-calved people. It is difficult to switch from one group to the other. You can work on losing fat, as you already said, but actually getting your muscles to atrophy is difficult and (completely my opinion) silly. Enjoy your big calves. Continue to work on your overall fitness and they will be big shapely calves, which are great.

    I don't mind my calves except the fact it is sooo hard to find boots that fit. My calves are the size of some people's thighs (mind you, I do know some pretty thin people.) Pants can also be an issue at times.

    My husband has giant calves that he has admitted to thinking are too big. Nonsense, I say :). I have skinny calves. He bought me a pair of boots for Christmas, not realizing that they were wide calf boots. I entertained him by demonstrating how I could shove my entire arm down the boot next to my calf. I exchanged them for regulars and could still shove my arm down there if I really tried.
  • senecarr
    senecarr Posts: 5,377 Member
    edited August 2015
    You can't spot reduce fat. You have to lose weight everywhere.

    Yes, I realize this, but there are exercises that are better for toning certain areas. So I would start to incorporate them into my life.

    I suppose I should have phrased my question as such "What exercises are there to help tone my calves?"
    Toning isn't a thing.
    You have two things that can change the volume in a body area: the amount of fat, and the amount of muscle.
    If you gain fat, some might go to your calves. If you lose fat, some might come from your calves.
    If you do more exercises of the calves, the muscles there will grow. If you avoid using your calves, the muscle might atrophy.
  • jemhh
    jemhh Posts: 14,261 Member
    senecarr wrote: »
    You can't spot reduce fat. You have to lose weight everywhere.

    Yes, I realize this, but there are exercises that are better for toning certain areas. So I would start to incorporate them into my life.

    I suppose I should have phrased my question as such "What exercises are there to help tone my calves?"
    Toning isn't a thing.
    You have two things that can the volume in a body area: the amount of fat, and the amount of muscle.
    If you gain fat, some might go to your calves. If you lose fat, some might come from your calves.
    If you do more exercises of the calves, the muscles there will grow. If you avoid using your calves, the muscle might atrophy.

    This. So your options are to lose fat and/or to start walking on your hands instead of your feet.
  • Giolis
    Giolis Posts: 1,204 Member
    Unfortunately, "toning" is a made up word. You either have muscle or you don't. Muscle is muscle. No such thing as lean muscle either.

    See the tread below:

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10229692/toning-is-a-deception/p1
  • senecarr
    senecarr Posts: 5,377 Member
    jemhh wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    You can't spot reduce fat. You have to lose weight everywhere.

    Yes, I realize this, but there are exercises that are better for toning certain areas. So I would start to incorporate them into my life.

    I suppose I should have phrased my question as such "What exercises are there to help tone my calves?"
    Toning isn't a thing.
    You have two things that can the volume in a body area: the amount of fat, and the amount of muscle.
    If you gain fat, some might go to your calves. If you lose fat, some might come from your calves.
    If you do more exercises of the calves, the muscles there will grow. If you avoid using your calves, the muscle might atrophy.

    This. So your options are to lose fat and/or to start walking on your hands instead of your feet.
    Let's be sensible here. She could buy shoes that lock her ankle and walk by using mainly hip motion.
    I've found having my calves stay at over 18" while going from 285 to 196 so far means I'm not buying skinny leg jeans. Heck, unless I want a really baggy waist look, I'm not wearing regular leg jeans. I can live with that. Plenty of people out there wish they could grow their calves and can't seem to make that happen.
  • BlahUnderpants
    BlahUnderpants Posts: 33 Member
    jemhh wrote: »
    jemhh wrote: »
    The world is pretty much made up of big-calved and small-calved people. It is difficult to switch from one group to the other. You can work on losing fat, as you already said, but actually getting your muscles to atrophy is difficult and (completely my opinion) silly. Enjoy your big calves. Continue to work on your overall fitness and they will be big shapely calves, which are great.

    I don't mind my calves except the fact it is sooo hard to find boots that fit. My calves are the size of some people's thighs (mind you, I do know some pretty thin people.) Pants can also be an issue at times.

    My husband has giant calves that he has admitted to thinking are too big. Nonsense, I say :). I have skinny calves. He bought me a pair of boots for Christmas, not realizing that they were wide calf boots. I entertained him by demonstrating how I could shove my entire arm down the boot next to my calf. I exchanged them for regulars and could still shove my arm down there if I really tried.

    I know some people that can do that. Haha. I am only jealous because you get the pick of the boots you want. I have limited choice. I also have slightly large feet, so that narrows my options even more. >.<
  • senecarr
    senecarr Posts: 5,377 Member
    jemhh wrote: »
    jemhh wrote: »
    The world is pretty much made up of big-calved and small-calved people. It is difficult to switch from one group to the other. You can work on losing fat, as you already said, but actually getting your muscles to atrophy is difficult and (completely my opinion) silly. Enjoy your big calves. Continue to work on your overall fitness and they will be big shapely calves, which are great.

    I don't mind my calves except the fact it is sooo hard to find boots that fit. My calves are the size of some people's thighs (mind you, I do know some pretty thin people.) Pants can also be an issue at times.

    My husband has giant calves that he has admitted to thinking are too big. Nonsense, I say :). I have skinny calves. He bought me a pair of boots for Christmas, not realizing that they were wide calf boots. I entertained him by demonstrating how I could shove my entire arm down the boot next to my calf. I exchanged them for regulars and could still shove my arm down there if I really tried.

    I know some people that can do that. Haha. I am only jealous because you get the pick of the boots you want. I have limited choice. I also have slightly large feet, so that narrows my options even more. >.<
    I have extremely wide feet. I gave up on normal shoes and just wear five-fingers all the time.
  • gillian_nalletamby
    gillian_nalletamby Posts: 38 Member
    As well as focusing on your diet, I would also incorporate cardio into your routine like walking (if jogging is too much) and classes like Body Attack. I would not do any weights that specifically target your calves.
  • BlahUnderpants
    BlahUnderpants Posts: 33 Member
    edited August 2015
    Giolis wrote: »
    Unfortunately, "toning" is a made up word. You either have muscle or you don't. Muscle is muscle. No such thing as lean muscle either.

    See the tread below:

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10229692/toning-is-a-deception/p1

    In my mind, "toning" is building muscle. So maybe that isn't the best choice of words either. So exercises that that build calf muscles would be fine.

    I guess I will just stick to cycling and add in come calf lifts or something.
  • slinke2014
    slinke2014 Posts: 149 Member
    My only advice would hit up Macys just before spring. They have HUGE boot sales so you can try a bunch on. Even "wide calf" boots don't fit me most of the time so I have to try all the biggest looking ones to find ones that fit. I have the dreaded cankle where boots, even most wide calf ones, don't zip up more than an inch. Acceptance is all you can do.
  • gothchiq
    gothchiq Posts: 4,590 Member
    there ain't much you can do about your hereditary shape, though you CAN lose fat all over including in the calves.

    I had to respond just because of your username. lol. Beware the underpants gnomes.
  • BlahUnderpants
    BlahUnderpants Posts: 33 Member
    gothchiq wrote: »
    there ain't much you can do about your hereditary shape, though you CAN lose fat all over including in the calves.

    I had to respond just because of your username. lol. Beware the underpants gnomes.

    That is what I am trying to do. :)

    I knew at least once person would come because of the name.
  • BlahUnderpants
    BlahUnderpants Posts: 33 Member
    senecarr wrote: »
    jemhh wrote: »
    jemhh wrote: »
    The world is pretty much made up of big-calved and small-calved people. It is difficult to switch from one group to the other. You can work on losing fat, as you already said, but actually getting your muscles to atrophy is difficult and (completely my opinion) silly. Enjoy your big calves. Continue to work on your overall fitness and they will be big shapely calves, which are great.

    I don't mind my calves except the fact it is sooo hard to find boots that fit. My calves are the size of some people's thighs (mind you, I do know some pretty thin people.) Pants can also be an issue at times.

    My husband has giant calves that he has admitted to thinking are too big. Nonsense, I say :). I have skinny calves. He bought me a pair of boots for Christmas, not realizing that they were wide calf boots. I entertained him by demonstrating how I could shove my entire arm down the boot next to my calf. I exchanged them for regulars and could still shove my arm down there if I really tried.

    I know some people that can do that. Haha. I am only jealous because you get the pick of the boots you want. I have limited choice. I also have slightly large feet, so that narrows my options even more. >.<
    I have extremely wide feet. I gave up on normal shoes and just wear five-fingers all the time.

    I can usually wear regular wide, though they are tight. But I wear 12/13 in womens and, while not the largest size out there, can be difficult to find.
  • gothchiq
    gothchiq Posts: 4,590 Member
    And if you want help looking online for wide calf boots, message me and I'll try and help. I know a LOT of shoe and boot places... most goths have a ridiculously huge footwear wardrobe. XD
  • BlahUnderpants
    BlahUnderpants Posts: 33 Member
    edited August 2015
    slinke2014 wrote: »
    My only advice would hit up Macys just before spring. They have HUGE boot sales so you can try a bunch on. Even "wide calf" boots don't fit me most of the time so I have to try all the biggest looking ones to find ones that fit. I have the dreaded cankle where boots, even most wide calf ones, don't zip up more than an inch. Acceptance is all you can do.

    I can never find my size at Macy's. I usually have to order online, which is hit or miss.
  • SueInAz
    SueInAz Posts: 6,592 Member
    edited August 2015
    You could just stop wearing boots? :p Seriously, as others have said "toning" simply means losing enough fat so that the muscle underneath shows. It's not really a "thing." Your only real option is to lose fat until your calves are the size you want. Of course, if they're like mine, they won't ever be of normal size. I have practically zero fat on my calves (most of my fat goes on my hips and thighs) and they are still almost 15" around. They are, and always have been, almost solid muscle and larger than average. To the amusement of my male lifting partner, I refuse to work them while strength training because they'll just get bigger. His calves are only slightly bigger, he works them a couple of times each week and he's more than a little jealous. I keep telling him I'd happily trade. LOL

    When I was younger I despised my calves. I would have told you they were my biggest flaw. I had a lot of problems with the tight at the ankle jeans that were fashionable and I certainly could never roll up a pair of pants more than a couple of inches. I'm not much of a boot wearer (living in the desert might have something to do with that) so I haven't had your specific issue but I know exactly how you feel. Sadly, our genetics have much more to do with the size of specific body parts than anything we can influence.
  • senecarr
    senecarr Posts: 5,377 Member
    Giolis wrote: »
    Unfortunately, "toning" is a made up word. You either have muscle or you don't. Muscle is muscle. No such thing as lean muscle either.

    See the tread below:

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10229692/toning-is-a-deception/p1

    In my mind, "toning" is building muscle. So maybe that isn't the best choice of words either. So exercises that that build calf muscles would be fine.

    I guess I will just stick to cycling and add in come calf lifts or something.
    If you exercise your calf muscles, your calves will get bigger. That's the point being made. You exercise the muscle, the muscle grows bigger in response, the increased amount of muscle takes up more space.

  • BlahUnderpants
    BlahUnderpants Posts: 33 Member
    edited August 2015
    SueInAz wrote: »
    You could just stop wearing boots? :p Seriously, as others have said "toning" simply means losing enough fat so that the muscle underneath shows. It's not really a "thing." Your only real option is to lose fat until your calves are the size you want. Of course, if they're like mine, they won't ever be of normal size. I have practically zero fat on my calves (most of my fat goes on my hips and thighs) and they are still almost 15" around. They are, and always have been, almost solid muscle and larger than average. To the amusement of my male lifting partner, I refuse to work them while strength training because they'll just get bigger. His calves are only slightly bigger, he works them a couple of times each week and he's more than a little jealous. I keep telling him I'd happily trade. LOL

    When I was younger I despised my calves. I would have told you they were my biggest flaw. I had a lot of problems with the tight at the ankle jeans that were fashionable and I certainly could never roll up a pair of pants more than a couple of inches. I'm not much of a boot wearer (living in the desert might have something to do with that) so I haven't had your specific issue but I know exactly how you feel. Sadly, our genetics have much more to do with the size of specific body parts than anything we can influence.

    I would be quite alright with 15" calves... As I said in my OP, I am well aware that I will never be in the average category.
  • slinke2014
    slinke2014 Posts: 149 Member
    slinke2014 wrote: »
    My only advice would hit up Macys just before spring. They have HUGE boot sales so you can try a bunch on. Even "wide calf" boots don't fit me most of the time so I have to try all the biggest looking ones to find ones that fit. I have the dreaded cankle where boots, even most wide calf ones, don't zip up more than an inch. Acceptance is all you can do.

    I can never find my size at Macy's. I usually have to order online, which is hit or miss.

    Meh, I got my first pair of boots ever at the age of 34 and only because they were mukaluks so they were just stretchy sweater material on top. Not being able to wear boots isn't that big of a deal.
  • SueInAz
    SueInAz Posts: 6,592 Member
    SueInAz wrote: »
    You could just stop wearing boots? :p Seriously, as others have said "toning" simply means losing enough fat so that the muscle underneath shows. It's not really a "thing." Your only real option is to lose fat until your calves are the size you want. Of course, if they're like mine, they won't ever be of normal size. I have practically zero fat on my calves (most of my fat goes on my hips and thighs) and they are still almost 15" around. They are, and always have been, almost solid muscle and larger than average. To the amusement of my male lifting partner, I refuse to work them while strength training because they'll just get bigger. His calves are only slightly bigger, he works them a couple of times each week and he's more than a little jealous. I keep telling him I'd happily trade. LOL

    When I was younger I despised my calves. I would have told you they were my biggest flaw. I had a lot of problems with the tight at the ankle jeans that were fashionable and I certainly could never roll up a pair of pants more than a couple of inches. I'm not much of a boot wearer (living in the desert might have something to do with that) so I haven't had your specific issue but I know exactly how you feel. Sadly, our genetics have much more to do with the size of specific body parts than anything we can influence.

    I would be quite alright with 15" calves... As I said in my OP, I am well aware that I will never be in the average category.

    I wasn't implying that I thought you weren't. Just offering a bit of empathy since I'm in the same boat.

    I know 15" isn't that big in the grand scheme of things but I'm also not overweight. If I were significantly overweight, my calves would be much, much bigger because they are big to start with. I guess the point is, there's hope. Just keep at the weight loss and they'll shrink. Don't do strength exercises that target your calves, though. They'll probably just get bigger if you do. Focus on the fat loss part of the equation.
  • BlahUnderpants
    BlahUnderpants Posts: 33 Member
    SueInAz wrote: »
    SueInAz wrote: »
    You could just stop wearing boots? :p Seriously, as others have said "toning" simply means losing enough fat so that the muscle underneath shows. It's not really a "thing." Your only real option is to lose fat until your calves are the size you want. Of course, if they're like mine, they won't ever be of normal size. I have practically zero fat on my calves (most of my fat goes on my hips and thighs) and they are still almost 15" around. They are, and always have been, almost solid muscle and larger than average. To the amusement of my male lifting partner, I refuse to work them while strength training because they'll just get bigger. His calves are only slightly bigger, he works them a couple of times each week and he's more than a little jealous. I keep telling him I'd happily trade. LOL

    When I was younger I despised my calves. I would have told you they were my biggest flaw. I had a lot of problems with the tight at the ankle jeans that were fashionable and I certainly could never roll up a pair of pants more than a couple of inches. I'm not much of a boot wearer (living in the desert might have something to do with that) so I haven't had your specific issue but I know exactly how you feel. Sadly, our genetics have much more to do with the size of specific body parts than anything we can influence.

    I would be quite alright with 15" calves... As I said in my OP, I am well aware that I will never be in the average category.

    I wasn't implying that I thought you weren't. Just offering a bit of empathy since I'm in the same boat.

    I know 15" isn't that big in the grand scheme of things but I'm also not overweight. If I were significantly overweight, my calves would be much, much bigger because they are big to start with. I guess the point is, there's hope. Just keep at the weight loss and they'll shrink. Don't do strength exercises that target your calves, though. They'll probably just get bigger if you do. Focus on the fat loss part of the equation.

    Just looked at your profile. Great job on your weight loss.
  • SueInAz
    SueInAz Posts: 6,592 Member
    SueInAz wrote: »
    SueInAz wrote: »
    You could just stop wearing boots? :p Seriously, as others have said "toning" simply means losing enough fat so that the muscle underneath shows. It's not really a "thing." Your only real option is to lose fat until your calves are the size you want. Of course, if they're like mine, they won't ever be of normal size. I have practically zero fat on my calves (most of my fat goes on my hips and thighs) and they are still almost 15" around. They are, and always have been, almost solid muscle and larger than average. To the amusement of my male lifting partner, I refuse to work them while strength training because they'll just get bigger. His calves are only slightly bigger, he works them a couple of times each week and he's more than a little jealous. I keep telling him I'd happily trade. LOL

    When I was younger I despised my calves. I would have told you they were my biggest flaw. I had a lot of problems with the tight at the ankle jeans that were fashionable and I certainly could never roll up a pair of pants more than a couple of inches. I'm not much of a boot wearer (living in the desert might have something to do with that) so I haven't had your specific issue but I know exactly how you feel. Sadly, our genetics have much more to do with the size of specific body parts than anything we can influence.

    I would be quite alright with 15" calves... As I said in my OP, I am well aware that I will never be in the average category.

    I wasn't implying that I thought you weren't. Just offering a bit of empathy since I'm in the same boat.

    I know 15" isn't that big in the grand scheme of things but I'm also not overweight. If I were significantly overweight, my calves would be much, much bigger because they are big to start with. I guess the point is, there's hope. Just keep at the weight loss and they'll shrink. Don't do strength exercises that target your calves, though. They'll probably just get bigger if you do. Focus on the fat loss part of the equation.

    Just looked at your profile. Great job on your weight loss.

    Thanks! I go up and down. I've been on MFP for 4.5 years now. I'm more focused on strength training than weight loss at the moment. Except on my calves. ;)
  • MoiAussi93
    MoiAussi93 Posts: 1,948 Member
    edited August 2015
    Giolis wrote: »
    Unfortunately, "toning" is a made up word. You either have muscle or you don't. Muscle is muscle. No such thing as lean muscle either.

    See the tread below:

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10229692/toning-is-a-deception/p1

    In my mind, "toning" is building muscle. So maybe that isn't the best choice of words either. So exercises that that build calf muscles would be fine.

    I guess I will just stick to cycling and add in come calf lifts or something.



    I have found that when I started running my legs (actually hips to calves) slimmed down dramatically. A great percentage of the fat I lost during the first few months of running (jogging actually) came from my lower body. I know you can't spot reduce, so I don't really have an explanation for it...but it is what it is. I have seen people who walk for exercise get similar results, btw. Long bouts of cardio can work wonders.

    I wouldn't recommend sprints though...sprints built more muscle for me...my thighs actually got a bit bigger after a couple of months of sprints and then leveled out. Sprints, and hills, are known to build muscle.

    I also wouldn't focus too much on things that build calf muscle...calf raises, etc. Just focus on cardio, watch your diet, and your calves will get smaller as you lose. They may or may not ever be as small as you want them, but they will get smaller than they are now.

    I used to have to wear wide calf boots as well. At my heaviest my calves were 16.5 inches. The first 60 pounds I lost my calves did not change AT ALL. Then over the next 15 pounds I lost two whole inches. And they would periodically get smaller after that.

    Btw, research grape seed extract if you haven't already. You may want to consider giving it a try. I know a couple of people who got significant relief from varicose veins after using it for a while.
  • BlahUnderpants
    BlahUnderpants Posts: 33 Member
    MoiAussi93 wrote: »
    Giolis wrote: »
    Unfortunately, "toning" is a made up word. You either have muscle or you don't. Muscle is muscle. No such thing as lean muscle either.

    See the tread below:

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10229692/toning-is-a-deception/p1

    In my mind, "toning" is building muscle. So maybe that isn't the best choice of words either. So exercises that that build calf muscles would be fine.

    I guess I will just stick to cycling and add in come calf lifts or something.



    I have found that when I started running my legs (actually hips to calves) slimmed down dramatically. A great percentage of the fat I lost during the first few months of running (jogging actually) came from my lower body. I know you can't spot reduce, so I don't really have an explanation for it...but it is what it is. I have seen people who walk for exercise get similar results, btw. Long bouts of cardio can work wonders.

    I wouldn't recommend sprints though...sprints built more muscle for me...my thighs actually got a bit bigger after a couple of months of sprints and then leveled out. Sprints, and hills, are known to build muscle.

    I also wouldn't focus too much on things that build calf muscle...calf raises, etc. Just focus on cardio, watch your diet, and your calves will get smaller as you lose. They may or may not ever be as small as you want them, but they will get smaller than they are now.

    I used to have to wear wide calf boots as well. At my heaviest my calves were 16.5 inches. The first 60 pounds I lost my calves did not change AT ALL. Then over the next 15 pounds I lost two whole inches. And they would periodically get smaller after that.

    Btw, research grape seed extract if you haven't already. You may want to consider giving it a try. I know a couple of people who got significant relief from varicose veins after using it for a while.

    Thank you for your post. I am aware the spot training, toning, all that is nonsense. I don't mind muscle too much, I can control, somewhat, how much muscle I gain. I have done research myself and many say that walking/jogging/running does seem to have an affect on the legs. I use to jog before I had issues with my legs (varicose veins, sciatica pain).

    I realize that there may not be a dramatic decrease. I just want to be able to not look like I am walking on pale, bulging sausages.

    I do not suffer from the dreaded cankle, but when my legs swell, I can lose all definition on my legs and ankles (I stay away from any foot wear during these periods and often don compression stockings to help circulation) But I know my legs will never be small. I am okay with that. I just want smaller (2-3 inches would be marvelous) than what they are now. Though, even that may not be a possibility.

    I will definitely look into grape seed extract.