low carb diet has been debunked
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DeguelloTex wrote: »Did I miss the post in which @Mr_Knight quantified how and by how much the choice of calories affects CO, for the same level of CI?
I don't know, but in the study which is the topic of the OP the TDEE wasn't the same on the 2 diets (P=0.099 for all participants.)
In the men the difference was 150 cals/day (P=0.017). 150 cals is ~7.5%
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goldthistime wrote: »it could be argued that the difference in the fat loss for those six days is just that the subjects' bodies found the low fat diet to be more of a metabolic adjustment than the lowish carb diet.
During the six days the restricted carb diet was reducing glycogen reserves and burning carbs other than from food, which reduced the fat burn. By about 8.5 days this would have disappeared and something else would have to replace it - perhaps more fat burning. One the first day 400 cals came from this source
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Just my 2 cents, I'm a low carb eater. I am low carb not to lose weight, but for other benefits. I am prediabetic and have poly cystic ovarian syndrome and I found low carb to help improve these conditions. I also have binge eating disorder and the lower appetite that comes with ketosis helps immensely. I also used to fall asleep after every meal before keto and don't now.
I watch calories and exercise to lose weight. Low carb/keto just helps with everything else. I think you will find a lot of low carb folk are similar.
Same here, I was prediabetic and had hereditary high blood pressure and high cholesterol, but Keto has helped resolve all of that (and I lost 85 pounds!). I eat 20 net carbs or less per day, and I strongly despise when people tell me it doesn't work, or it's unhealthy for you. I'm just like "...what?..." When I saw this topic, I was somewhat upset, because the author seemed...proud...that LCHF diets were """"debunked"""". I don't even then I could put enough quotes on that.
I think it's great that it works for you. Like I said upthread I think low carb is a good strategy for some to maintain a calorie deficit, even if the low carb claims like "you lose fat better if you keep insulin down" are debunked.
What I think provokes some of the argument on this forum, though, is that lots of low carbers seem to assume that their own personal issues with carbs mean that carbs are unhealthy for everyone (sometimes to the absurd degree of claiming that a diet low in vegetables and very high in sat fat is healthier, since lower carb).
I'd just like to point out that you shouldn't assume -- and I'm not saying you do, but I've seen it over and over -- that most of us who eat normal amounts of carbs struggle with appetite or are falling asleep after meals or feeling crappy or would be healthier if we cut our carbs. I do see keto sometimes recommended as a way to stay below 1200 easily and it might be easier (although I doubt I could keep up my current exercise program on keto, let alone on under 1200), and on occasion that worries me as I don't think it's idea to focus on killing your appetite so that you can eat levels that might be overly low anyway. If the appetite is making it tough to maintain a deficit, though, of course I get it.
Anyway, again, I am not directing this at you; just trying to explain why some of the reaction exists.
@lemurcat12
Yeah, I agree with you. In general, when people ask me about weight loss I simply instruct them to create a calorie defici to. I don't even mention low carb as this doesn't work for everyone. Personally, it's easy for me to do low carb. I consume many vegetables and my fat mainly consists of monounsaturated
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I pulled that from the Eat, Train, Progress group - I believe those are the calculations used to determine minimums for IIFYM. The reason I pulled those was to demonstrate that a significant number of carbs (roughly ~50% of calorie intake) is left over simply by hitting the minimums. But most people don't actually eat the minimums for protein or fat, they eat more, reducing the carb percentage, but not necessarily making someone "low carb" by what most low carbers would consider the standard, hence why they focus on carb intake by grams for the definition of low carb, and not percentages.
I do think that most people on MFP who view protein or fat as minimums, or who have set their macros for higher fat or protein numbers than the standard percentages given by MFP probably ingest fewer carbs than the average person. I'm not referring to people who are training for a specific athletic goal or physique, but just your average MFP user eating in a deficit or maintaining and doing regular exercise for health, and I often wonder how much of a role even that small reduction in carbs has in their success. But the dietary changes related to using MFP is just a personal interest of mine, not something I want to debate.
Here's the link to calculations: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/819055/setting-your-calorie-and-macro-targets/p10 -
0.35 seems a reasonable start point, if a little arbitrary and perhaps reminiscent of low fat diets. Combined with another rule of thumb 10 kcal/lb it ends up at ~31.5 %cals from fat.0
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Blueseraphchaos wrote: »
Bake the bacon. I use thick sliced, so 25 minutes at 350F. Bake the bacon, steam (not boil) the eggs. Two things about which I actually listened to my Mom.
It's so hot here i flat-out refused to turn on my oven today, lol. But i do bake bacon sometimes (although i prefer mine not crispy, so not often) i always end up with really crispy bacon when i bake it, haha0 -
sheldonklein wrote: »6 days, 19 people, fat loss and statistically significant should never be in the same sentence. Except mine.
Exactly what I thought. That isn't how to conduct a study if you want recognition in your field.0 -
KittensMaster wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Just my 2 cents, I'm a low carb eater. I am low carb not to lose weight, but for other benefits. I am prediabetic and have poly cystic ovarian syndrome and I found low carb to help improve these conditions. I also have binge eating disorder and the lower appetite that comes with ketosis helps immensely. I also used to fall asleep after every meal before keto and don't now.
I watch calories and exercise to lose weight. Low carb/keto just helps with everything else. I think you will find a lot of low carb folk are similar.
Same here, I was prediabetic and had hereditary high blood pressure and high cholesterol, but Keto has helped resolve all of that (and I lost 85 pounds!). I eat 20 net carbs or less per day, and I strongly despise when people tell me it doesn't work, or it's unhealthy for you. I'm just like "...what?..." When I saw this topic, I was somewhat upset, because the author seemed...proud...that LCHF diets were """"debunked"""". I don't even then I could put enough quotes on that.
I think it's great that it works for you. Like I said upthread I think low carb is a good strategy for some to maintain a calorie deficit, even if the low carb claims like "you lose fat better if you keep insulin down" are debunked.
What I think provokes some of the argument on this forum, though, is that lots of low carbers seem to assume that their own personal issues with carbs mean that carbs are unhealthy for everyone (sometimes to the absurd degree of claiming that a diet low in vegetables and very high in sat fat is healthier, since lower carb).
I'd just like to point out that you shouldn't assume -- and I'm not saying you do, but I've seen it over and over -- that most of us who eat normal amounts of carbs struggle with appetite or are falling asleep after meals or feeling crappy or would be healthier if we cut our carbs. I do see keto sometimes recommended as a way to stay below 1200 easily and it might be easier (although I doubt I could keep up my current exercise program on keto, let alone on under 1200), and on occasion that worries me as I don't think it's idea to focus on killing your appetite so that you can eat levels that might be overly low anyway. If the appetite is making it tough to maintain a deficit, though, of course I get it.
Anyway, again, I am not directing this at you; just trying to explain why some of the reaction exists.
I'm not directing this at you, lemurcat12, but adding to the conversation.
Some of the reaction also exists because some non-low carbers assume that every comment someone shares about why they chose to go low carb means that they think everyone has the same issues they have with carbs, or that they think everyone should go low carb.
I find that most of the regular low carb users on this site tend to be very realistic about low carb, and when they throw it out as a suggestion, it's just that: a suggestion. This is what worked for them. It's no different than when someone shares that IIFYM or simply moderating intake worked for them. The claims that people are "demonizing" carbs or sugar if they suggest low carb is the claimant projecting their own beliefs about low carb, and rarely what the low carb advocate actually said. There are thousands of low carb users in the forums, and we see a handful who make outrageous claims; that's hardly "lots" of low carbers. It's a vocal minority at best, they just happen to be very vocal.
I'm not disputing that we have had some very colorful characters in this community or seen some outrageous claims (which are thankfully disputed), but "explaining the reaction" feels a bit like "blaming the person who used the word low carb to justify an inappropriate response based on personal biases and past experience with others." No one should have to accept other people's "reactions" to their statements when the statement is no way controversial. If a person has gotten to the point where every time they see someone mention low carb, they automatically think that the person thinks carbs are bad or that the person thinks everyone should cut carbs, then they are the one with the issue and they need to resolve it.
We often see people say that "just because you go on a diet, doesn't mean everyone else has to go on a diet to keep you in check." The same thing applies here - just because you have biases about low carb, doesn't mean everyone else has to stop posting about it, or only post in a certain way, to keep you from having a "reaction."
True. However it is also true that most people who get dubbed the 'CICO cult' aren't biased about low carb. I have heard more time than I can count that low carb one of many ways of maintaining a caloric deficit from those who choose the IIFYM methodology. The debate I see is when people who eat a certain type of eating make claims that they fundamentally believe to be true, but the actual science just doesn't support. There is value in confronting that.
The "CICO Cult" is just as bad in its own way. The "all calories are equal" and "exercise doesn't matter for weight loss" mantras are just as wrong as claiming low carb is the One True Path - but we hear them anyway, over and over again.
Every approach is susceptible to being reduced to a meaningless soundbite. And this being the internet, we know that anything that can happen, will happen.
That is it. Internet squabbles just don't happen at the gym or with my bike riding friends
This brand of insanity is reserved for some cyberspace inhabitants
I'm lower carb and sometimes I see things and wonder how anyone can think that.
To make people really go crazy I am low carb but do get most of my deficit thru exercise
I took in about 200 grams of carbs today. I burnt off 2100 or so calories, and all those carbs, on a 34 mile bike ride at about 18 mph.
So net carbs are all gone.
And did that long hard bit of exercise matter?
You clearly didn't you read the article that said exercise isn't important for weight loss.
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Of course carbs don't make u gain weight. I never understood any ppl torture themselves with those low carb diets. I eat about 300 carbs a day
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I'm not referring to people who are training for a specific athletic goal or physique, but just your average MFP user eating in a deficit or maintaining and doing regular exercise for health, and I often wonder how much of a role even that small reduction in carbs has in their success.
I wonder how much the average user lowers carb percentage, though. There seems to be this belief that the average American eats enormous amounts of carbs, and that's not so. It's like 50% carbs, 35% fat, and 15% protein, and some believe that the usual stats understate fat, since people think they shouldn't be eating it (so lie when self-reporting). The MFP macros are what? 50% carbs, 20% protein, 30% fat? Or 25% fat and protein? Anyway, the percentage cut is fat, not carbs.
Overall carbs are way down, of course, if you have a deficit, but same with fat if you aren't doing LCHF and follow these macros (or even 40-30-30). And I'd bet lots of users ignore macros and continue to be lower on protein than even MFP recommends.
It would be an interesting survey for the site, though.
I tend to eat lower carb (not low, but lower than the SAD) due to personal preference and likely did pre weight loss efforts too, but I don't find that my carb percentage helps me eat less such that if I lowered my carbs that would cause me to lose more. (Would keto make me feel so uninterested in food that I'd struggle to hit 1200 like some claim? Shrug, maybe, never tried it, but I could not fuel my activity on that and don't think under 1200 is a good idea.)
Not saying low carb isn't helpful to some -- it seems like there's a subset of users who really struggled with hunger pre low carb (although I wonder how much they tried other dietary modifications, not that they need to) , and others who don't find that the issue or experience much of a difference. (I find carbs on the whole more satiating than fat, although some foods with fat are satiating and some kinds of carbs are not.)0 -
Are you saying 31% of calories from fat is reminiscent of low fat diets? That number is pretty much right in the middle of most every recommendation I've seen (25-35%). Or am I misunderstanding your point with that comparison?0.35 seems a reasonable start point, if a little arbitrary and perhaps reminiscent of low fat diets. Combined with another rule of thumb 10 kcal/lb it ends up at ~31.5 %cals from fat.
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I think there should be a distinction between low fiber carbs and moderate high fiber carbs. High fiber carbs react totally different in body. Most of the benefits of carbs come in forms with high fiber and most of the negatives of carbs come in forms where the fiber stripped away. I think any discussion about carbs verses fats in dietary nutritional context should include the fiber component of the carbs.0
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Yeah, it's crazy to generalize about carbs OR fat. (Especially since a huge percentage of the foods that people overeat are carbs PLUS fat.)0
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sunkissmarie wrote: »Of course carbs don't make u gain weight. I never understood any ppl torture themselves with those low carb diets. I eat about 300 carbs a day
Torture? Sigh... Is there an eye rolling smilie?0 -
...
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sunkissmarie wrote: »Of course carbs don't make u gain weight. I never understood any ppl torture themselves with those low carb diets. I eat about 300 carbs a day
Torture? Sigh... Is there an eye rolling smilie?
I feel like I'm living in the middle ages with all the cheese, bacon, eggs, steak, mushrooms fried in butter, dark chococlate, sour cream...such a sad life.
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sunkissmarie wrote: »Of course carbs don't make u gain weight. I never understood any ppl torture themselves with those low carb diets. I eat about 300 carbs a day
Lol
Torture? That's a weird way to describe not eating carbs...
My 20 ish carbs a day is anything but torture. I'm eatin good!0 -
daniwilford wrote: »I think there should be a distinction between low fiber carbs and moderate high fiber carbs. High fiber carbs react totally different in body. Most of the benefits of carbs come in forms with high fiber and most of the negatives of carbs come in forms where the fiber stripped away. I think any discussion about carbs verses fats in dietary nutritional context should include the fiber component of the carbs.
When my T1D daughter takes insulin to cover consumed carbs, we've found she needs to count all of the carbs or blood sugar stays too high. I don't know if it's just different for some reason from one person to the next, but bolusing for net carbs doesn't work out right for her.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
Are you saying 31% of calories from fat is reminiscent of low fat diets? That number is pretty much right in the middle of most every recommendation I've seen (25-35%). Or am I misunderstanding your point with that comparison?0.35 seems a reasonable start point, if a little arbitrary and perhaps reminiscent of low fat diets. Combined with another rule of thumb 10 kcal/lb it ends up at ~31.5 %cals from fat.
25-35% is the low / reduced fat diet we're encouraged to eat.0 -
sunkissmarie wrote: »Of course carbs don't make u gain weight. I never understood any ppl torture themselves with those low carb diets. I eat about 300 carbs a day
Torture? Sigh... Is there an eye rolling smilie?
I feel like I'm living in the middle ages with all the cheese, bacon, eggs, steak, mushrooms fried in butter, dark chococlate, sour cream...such a sad life.
Next you'll be claiming there's probably MILLIONS of food combinations someone on a low carb diet can eat!!
That's fine from Monday through to Thursday, but what can I eat for the rest of the week - do you see my problem, it's just to restrictive and limiting!
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Blueseraphchaos wrote: »
Tip: - Bake it in the oven. You can just leave it (turning only once) and it comes out wonderful and crispy.
Hassle free and you can pop back on the couch in front of the AC whilst it cooks.
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Blueseraphchaos wrote: »
Bake the bacon. I use thick sliced, so 25 minutes at 350F. Bake the bacon, steam (not boil) the eggs. Two things about which I actually listened to my Mom.
Just seen this after I posted my suggested. We obviously had the same advice.
I also fry my eggs with a glass lid on the top (the top of the eggs get steamed that way)!
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »daniwilford wrote: »I think there should be a distinction between low fiber carbs and moderate high fiber carbs. High fiber carbs react totally different in body. Most of the benefits of carbs come in forms with high fiber and most of the negatives of carbs come in forms where the fiber stripped away. I think any discussion about carbs verses fats in dietary nutritional context should include the fiber component of the carbs.
When my T1D daughter takes insulin to cover consumed carbs, we've found she needs to count all of the carbs or blood sugar stays too high. I don't know if it's just different for some reason from one person to the next, but bolusing for net carbs doesn't work out right for her.
Oh, from a diabetes perspective it's probably different, but my point at least (in agreement with Dani's and related to what I thought she was getting at) is that from a nutritional standpoint it makes no sense to generalize about "fats" or "carbs."
I've mentioned before that I have a T2 friend who reacts poorly to carbs+fat, much more so than carbs alone. Based on subsequent looking around I see this actually is a thing.0 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »sunkissmarie wrote: »Of course carbs don't make u gain weight. I never understood any ppl torture themselves with those low carb diets. I eat about 300 carbs a day
Torture? Sigh... Is there an eye rolling smilie?
I feel like I'm living in the middle ages with all the cheese, bacon, eggs, steak, mushrooms fried in butter, dark chococlate, sour cream...such a sad life.
Next you'll be claiming there's probably MILLIONS of food combinations someone on a low carb diet can eat!!
That's fine from Monday through to Thursday, but what can I eat for the rest of the week - do you see my problem, it's just to restrictive and limiting!
For many people I'm sure it's not restrictive and limiting. I will agree that's a silly criticism. People who enjoy the diet should do it, people who would not have no real reason to do so.
Hmm--I think that's actually a good takeaway from this study and what I think HAS been debunked. For years the establishment said you should or had to cut fat to lose weight. Now the popular opinion (and claim by some low carb advocates) is that you have to cut carbs to lose weight. But the truth is that you just need to cut calories (and probably should not cut protein significantly, unless you eat more than most), so look at your diet, think about your preferences, and just do what works best for you. Which is what I've been saying all along!
For me this was cutting both fat and carbs, although carbs went lower at first since having minimum fat is not only important (although most of us are well above that anyway) but made more of a difference to my general satisfaction -- cheese vs. bread, for me cheese wins. ;-)0 -
KittensMaster wrote: »
That is it. Internet squabbles just don't happen at the gym or with my bike riding friends
This brand of insanity is reserved for some cyberspace inhabitants
I'm lower carb and sometimes I see things and wonder how anyone can think that.
To make people really go crazy I am low carb but do get most of my deficit thru exercise
I took in about 200 grams of carbs today. I burnt off 2100 or so calories, and all those carbs, on a 34 mile bike ride at about 18 mph.
So net carbs are all gone.
And did that long hard bit of exercise matter?
While they may not happen with my friends, they sure as hell happen with people at my work and in the real world. I had a lady tell me that eating carbs and fat together sets your body off and goes immediately into fat storing mode. I just giggled and asked her how I lost all of my weight. She had no answer.
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Blueseraphchaos wrote: »It's so hot here i flat-out refused to turn on my oven today, lol. But i do bake bacon sometimes (although i prefer mine not crispy, so not often) i always end up with really crispy bacon when i bake it, haha
I bake it so it's not quite done (it's *really* thick bacon), then I can re-heat it in the microwave and make it crispy. Took a couple of tries to get it just right. Now I cook bacon once or twice a week and nuke it when I want it.tennisdude2004 wrote: »Just seen this after I posted my suggested. We obviously had the same advice.
I also fry my eggs with a glass lid on the top (the top of the eggs get steamed that way)!
You're reading my mind! I cook eggs that way for hubby, as that's what he likes. For me? I fry my eggs the old-fashioned way... with bacon grease. I flop that grease on top to set the top, then flip it for just a few seconds. Over-easy here I come!0 -
goldthistime wrote: »it could be argued that the difference in the fat loss for those six days is just that the subjects' bodies found the low fat diet to be more of a metabolic adjustment than the lowish carb diet.
During the six days the restricted carb diet was reducing glycogen reserves and burning carbs other than from food, which reduced the fat burn. By about 8.5 days this would have disappeared and something else would have to replace it - perhaps more fat burning. One the first day 400 cals came from this source
Thanks for your response. Forgive my confusion, I'm not well versed in low carb, but you are saying that while the low fat diet allowed body fat to be burned beginning from day 1, the low carb diet reduced glycogen reserves before any body fat could be burned. Yes? Do you believe that after 8.5 days the weight loss and ratio of fat/lbm henceforth should be roughly equal between the two groups?
For you and any of our other science-y people here, maybe you could help clear up a few questions I had about this study...
To begin with, if you look at Figure 3 H, the graph is meant to represent a prediction of what would happen after six months. As the carb level approaches zero (probably 5%?), the weight loss is predicted to be around 17kg for the low carb (RC) group, whereas the low fat (RF) group is shown to have a predicted weight loss of around 10 or 11kg. I thought we all agreed that after a certain point the two methods should converge and it becomes just about calories in/out again. The authors of this study really believe that there would be over a 5kg difference for two diets identical in CICO?
That same graph shows that after six months the fat mass loss for RC group would be as low as 7.5kg, where the fat mass for the RF group would be about 10kg. This means that the RF group lost ONLY fat, no LBM whatsoever. Cool. Seems hard to believe though. Looking at a 25% carbs level, an individual is predicted to have lost around 8kg of fat and 15kg of total weight. I recall reading that depleting glycogen reserves reduces water weigh too, but not to the tune of 7kg.
If the answer is that the authors are extrapolating the results, no matter how inaccurate, why bother including grossly misleading charts?
The author states that DXA tests did NOT show a significant difference in fat loss between the two groups at the end of six days. I thought DXA was the gold standard in measuring fat loss. How sure are we that Hall's method of measuring fat loss is reliable?
"One female subject had changes in DXA % body fat data that were not physiological and were clear outliers, so these data were excluded from the analyses" Not physiological? I don't get it. Did she have liposuction while in that chamber? Why not tell us which group she was in?
I actually have a ton more questions, but if I'm alone in enjoying the process of looking at this study in detail I won't bother asking more.
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If there's a hell, it won't have chips and tortillas, that's for sure.sunkissmarie wrote: »Of course carbs don't make u gain weight. I never understood any ppl torture themselves with those low carb diets. I eat about 300 carbs a day
For most that do low carb it is not torture. Sound like you know it is not the diet for you, but that doesn't mean anyone else would struggle or feel tortured by it. How about you do you.....
I would be utterly miserable doing low carb. Others aren't. That's the great thing: I don't have to and they can if they want and it's just a question of meeting calorie goals.
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