Fun debate about CICO
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No debate about CICO is fun! Arguing about CICO is like arguing about gravity. People can believe whatever they want, but just like someone who doesn't believe in gravity won't all of a sudden float away, someone who doesn't believe in CICO still won't lose weight if they aren't in a calorie deficit. Any diet ever must have a calorie deficit present in order to see a reduction of weight in the long run. While optimal weight reduction or body recomposition diets require much more thought than simply "create a calorie deficit", they won't work at all if that isn't part of the diet.
Various factors may act on the calories out side of the equation, but there isn't much evidence that eating certain types of foods and banning others has a significant effect. Touching on what @PeachyCarol said about compliance, any effect that restricting of certain foods might have pales in comparison to compliance. If banning all foods containing X or not eating after Y o'clock has any effect at all (not conceding that it does), that effect is certainly not dramatic enough to be more important than compliance. For example, if tomorrow a perfectly designed study proves that eating 50 grams of carbs or less a day yields 15% better weight loss than a calorically equivalent balanced diet, you cannot say eating low carb is the best way for everyone to lose weight. I personally could not remain complaint with a low carb diet, so despite the 15% quicker fat loss, my non-compliance will cause the diet to not work at all.
TLDR If your diet doesn't create a calorie deficit, it won't work. If you diet is so restrictive you can't stick to it, it won't work. The key to success is finding a method of eating that allows you to both create a deficit and be compliant.
And this.0 -
I guess the question is, when these hormones affect fat storage, where does the fat go?VintageFeline wrote: »The perennial debate has come up with a friend today about the only thing mattering being CICO.
He argues food affects how many calories are stored as fat due hormone interruption. So what you eat matters. As someone who does the moderation thing I refute this.
I argue science and that health contains can affect BMR but 3500 calories remains 1lb for everyone.
Good sources and opinion to back me up or discredit me please!
I've seen this argued for insulin as the hormone a lot, and it is a misunderstanding of what it means to say insulin causes fat cells to store fat. The problem with this explanation is, the only way your fat cells have access to fat to store is that they're already in the blood, in circulation. So basically, the mechanism they're discussing is really what keeps your body from having excessively high triglycerides, a good thing. It isn't like a normal person's stomach just ignores fat and other available calories 'cause hormones. The body's goal is always to absorb as much as possible from the foods you eat.
:::applause gif::::
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I suppose another problem is, people just don't want to believe in differential equations.
Sure, getting a certain amount of protein is long term required to keep muscle mass, which slightly effects BMR. This just means that CI and CO are in flux and they're altering each other.
Think of a rocket ship: the more fuel it has, the more fuel it takes to rise. Conversely, the more fuel the rocket has burned, the less it needs to keep burning to keep going higher. This doesn't mean rockets violate thermodynamic laws, it just means if you want to calculate the loss, you need a differential equation.
A human body is more complex, but it would be possible to model inputs and outputs affecting each other, and it would still mean that calories in and calories out are what happens.
Ah ha! I see where he may be coming from now. I don't know enough about hormones/insulin to debunk so this is helpful!
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CICO is what matters for weight loss/gain/maintenance.
HOW someone prefers to make up those calories will depend on their own fitness/health goals. There really is no wrong way as long as they are meeting their essentials and being consistent with their own personal program.
I don't have any client adhere to any eating style. I let them figure it out for themselves.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Does meeting your essentials mean your macros...especially protein? Thanks!0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »I argue science and that health contains can affect BMR but 3500 calories remains 1lb for everyone.
Good sources and opinion to back me up or discredit me please!
It's fairly rare for clinical studies to create 1lb of weight loss and measure 3500 calorie deficit.
Example - Hall's recent 6 day thing. Women on reduced fat, calorie deficit -634 kcal/day * 6 days = 3804 kcal deficit. Weight loss 1.5 kg = 3.3 lbs by scales. Fat loss by calorimetry 392g ie < 1 lb. OK it was short term and glycogen got in the way.
So a challenge for you would be to come up with say at least 3 clinical studies that deliver 1 lb of loss per 3500 calories ;-)
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VintageFeline wrote: »My argument was that I couldn't see how that is true and haven't seen anything that convinces me of this. Aside from pre-existing medical conditions lowering someone's BMR laws of thermodynamics stand.
The laws of thermodynamics always stand. If you change the food into a human the digestive and hormonal processes do their thing and you can come along afterwards and do an energy balance. If the processes resulted in depletion of fat reserves etc you'll see a corresponding energy discrepancy.
It's a bit like a chemical reactor, the rate of reaction and so forth is influenced by concentration, temperature, pressure, catalysts, mixing etc but you don't have a direct handle on the rate of reaction. I can eat less food or do more activity, but I can't "control my deficit" only seek to influence it. If doing those things gives me a weight loss then there was a net energy deficit and my stores were depleted. If I do very similar things and there isn't a weight loss then one of countless things I can't measure has presumably changed.
I'm more FIFO than CICO - I seek to oxidise more Fat than I eat (or make) in order to reduce my stores.
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CICO is a great guideline but it has its limitations when applied to the human body -- because unlike the physics law in a closed system, the human body has a lot more variables -- we literally have 1000s of chemical reactions in our metabolic pathways, and the coefficients and efficiency of those reactions can vary greatly, especially as influenced by various hormones. Plus, you have the issue that a lb of fat releases 3500 cals, but a lb of muscle releases a lot less (something like 900-1700). So depending on your fat to muscle ratio in your weight loss will greatly change your numbers on the scale -- if you're losing more muscle, the numbers will go down quicker. If you're losing more fat, the numbers will go down slower.
You also have the issue that the CO part is virtually impossible to calculate with any accuracy independently -- most calculate it based on a lot of assumptions (such as common BMR numbers) or in reverse based on their weight loss result (which once again with the fat/muscle issue is only an estimate at best). So when people talk about the law being indisputable, it is true but also not completely accurate as applied to the extremely complex system of the human body.
And then you have things like pesky hormones and how they can effect the equation -- which a lot of people don't want to admit exist because it can get soooo complicated at this point. Whether you're talking insulin, thyroid, HGH, grehlin, leptin, etc. -- it goes on and on and we really are only starting to scratch the surface of how this all works.
An easy hormone example is someone that has insulin resistance. There was a study in 2012 or so that showed that women with good insulin sensitivity lost nearly twice as much weight as their counterparts on a higher carb diet isocaloric deficit diet (protein was the same and caloric deficit was the same). But their insulin resistance counterparts had the exact opposite happen -- they lost nearly twice as much weight on the lower carb diet. Same amounts of protein, same deficit and drastically different results based on carb/fat ratio depending on the individual woman's insulin sensitivity/resistance. So, that's a powerful example of how all calories are not all equal and would produce drastically different results in different women for the same amount of total calories.
And before anyone gets all up in arms about how insulin resistance is rare -- it's not. Per the CDC, over 40% of US adults have insulin resistance at diabetic or prediabetic levels -- the vast majority of which don't know it. I think actual numbers from their 2014 report (which had data from 2010-2012 I think) was something like 9.3% had diabetes and 37% had insulin resistance at prediabetic levels -- that's over 46%, or almost half of the population of US adults! That's a LOT of people.
So, CICO is a great guideline and definitely a place to start when you're looking to lose weight. But, if you find yourself not seeing results after following it (and you're truly accurately weighing/measuring your food), then you need to start to look at issues outside of CICO such as insulin resistance, thyroid, etc. Because you might be in that half of the population that has an issue that shifts the equation from its commonly understood applications.0 -
lowriderjim wrote: »I agree with the OP. I have lost around 90 lbs eating less of most foods and counting calories. The food choices I make are if the calories in a certain food is worth the calories. I would also add that seniors can loose weight and although exercise is important to health, weight can still be lost. I have lost 50 lbs in the last five months am 68 years old and this amount of weight was lost with no exercise.
These are only facts that have worked for me. Do what works for you but as the OP says CICO still is the important point.
Totally agree. I have lost 29lbs by cutting my calories down. I have continued to eat what I always have, but less of it.0 -
lindsey1979 wrote: »CICO is a great guideline but it has its limitations when applied to the human body -- because unlike the physics law in a closed system, the human body has a lot more variables -- we literally have 1000s of chemical reactions in our metabolic pathways, and the coefficients and efficiency of those reactions can vary greatly, especially as influenced by various hormones. Plus, you have the issue that a lb of fat releases 3500 cals, but a lb of muscle releases a lot less (something like 900-1700). So depending on your fat to muscle ratio in your weight loss will greatly change your numbers on the scale -- if you're losing more muscle, the numbers will go down quicker. If you're losing more fat, the numbers will go down slower.
You also have the issue that the CO part is virtually impossible to calculate with any accuracy independently -- most calculate it based on a lot of assumptions (such as common BMR numbers) or in reverse based on their weight loss result (which once again with the fat/muscle issue is only an estimate at best). So when people talk about the law being indisputable, it is true but also not completely accurate as applied to the extremely complex system of the human body.
And then you have things like pesky hormones and how they can effect the equation -- which a lot of people don't want to admit exist because it can get soooo complicated at this point. Whether you're talking insulin, thyroid, HGH, grehlin, leptin, etc. -- it goes on and on and we really are only starting to scratch the surface of how this all works.
An easy hormone example is someone that has insulin resistance. There was a study in 2012 or so that showed that women with good insulin sensitivity lost nearly twice as much weight as their counterparts on a higher carb diet isocaloric deficit diet (protein was the same and caloric deficit was the same). But their insulin resistance counterparts had the exact opposite happen -- they lost nearly twice as much weight on the lower carb diet. Same amounts of protein, same deficit and drastically different results based on carb/fat ratio depending on the individual woman's insulin sensitivity/resistance. So, that's a powerful example of how all calories are not all equal and would produce drastically different results in different women for the same amount of total calories.
And before anyone gets all up in arms about how insulin resistance is rare -- it's not. Per the CDC, over 40% of US adults have insulin resistance at diabetic or prediabetic levels -- the vast majority of which don't know it. I think actual numbers from their 2014 report (which had data from 2010-2012 I think) was something like 9.3% had diabetes and 37% had insulin resistance at prediabetic levels -- that's over 46%, or almost half of the population of US adults! That's a LOT of people.
So, CICO is a great guideline and definitely a place to start when you're looking to lose weight. But, if you find yourself not seeing results after following it (and you're truly accurately weighing/measuring your food), then you need to start to look at issues outside of CICO such as insulin resistance, thyroid, etc. Because you might be in that half of the population that has an issue that shifts the equation from its commonly understood applications.
No hormonal imbalance or disease can break a law of physics.
If you have something like that, all it does is change your body's ability to absorb (CI) or expend (CO) energy.0 -
lindsey1979 wrote: »CICO is a great guideline but it has its limitations when applied to the human body -- because unlike the physics law in a closed system, the human body has a lot more variables -- we literally have 1000s of chemical reactions in our metabolic pathways, and the coefficients and efficiency of those reactions can vary greatly, especially as influenced by various hormones. Plus, you have the issue that a lb of fat releases 3500 cals, but a lb of muscle releases a lot less (something like 900-1700). So depending on your fat to muscle ratio in your weight loss will greatly change your numbers on the scale -- if you're losing more muscle, the numbers will go down quicker. If you're losing more fat, the numbers will go down slower.
You also have the issue that the CO part is virtually impossible to calculate with any accuracy independently -- most calculate it based on a lot of assumptions (such as common BMR numbers) or in reverse based on their weight loss result (which once again with the fat/muscle issue is only an estimate at best). So when people talk about the law being indisputable, it is true but also not completely accurate as applied to the extremely complex system of the human body.
And then you have things like pesky hormones and how they can effect the equation -- which a lot of people don't want to admit exist because it can get soooo complicated at this point. Whether you're talking insulin, thyroid, HGH, grehlin, leptin, etc. -- it goes on and on and we really are only starting to scratch the surface of how this all works.
An easy hormone example is someone that has insulin resistance. There was a study in 2012 or so that showed that women with good insulin sensitivity lost nearly twice as much weight as their counterparts on a higher carb diet isocaloric deficit diet (protein was the same and caloric deficit was the same). But their insulin resistance counterparts had the exact opposite happen -- they lost nearly twice as much weight on the lower carb diet. Same amounts of protein, same deficit and drastically different results based on carb/fat ratio depending on the individual woman's insulin sensitivity/resistance. So, that's a powerful example of how all calories are not all equal and would produce drastically different results in different women for the same amount of total calories.
And before anyone gets all up in arms about how insulin resistance is rare -- it's not. Per the CDC, over 40% of US adults have insulin resistance at diabetic or prediabetic levels -- the vast majority of which don't know it. I think actual numbers from their 2014 report (which had data from 2010-2012 I think) was something like 9.3% had diabetes and 37% had insulin resistance at prediabetic levels -- that's over 46%, or almost half of the population of US adults! That's a LOT of people.
So, CICO is a great guideline and definitely a place to start when you're looking to lose weight. But, if you find yourself not seeing results after following it (and you're truly accurately weighing/measuring your food), then you need to start to look at issues outside of CICO such as insulin resistance, thyroid, etc. Because you might be in that half of the population that has an issue that shifts the equation from its commonly understood applications.
The laws of thermodynamics do not require a closed system. They are commonly stated as closed systems, but there are ways of stating them that are not closed.
The same physics applies regardless of the complexity of the system. It just becomes harder mathematically to calculate with higher degrees of accuracy.
The simple fact is that while calculating energy out from principles may be hard, it is very possible in practice if calories in are accurately tracked. Simply lower calories until weight loss resumes.
In truth, humans don't tend to stray to far from each other in BMR, even without taking mass into account. A vastly more efficient metabolism would have generally propagated into the population if it existed.0 -
I'd be interested in seeing a study that shows a supposed difference in insulin sensitivity and calorie burn.0
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I'd be interested in seeing a study that shows a supposed difference in insulin sensitivity and calorie burn.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15897479 found that insulin resistant women lost more weight on lower carb (40%C) and insulin sensitive lost more on low fat (60%C). "These differences could not be explained by changes in resting metabolic rate, activity, or intake. Overall, changes in Si were associated with the degree of weight loss (r = -0.57, p < 0.05)."0 -
16 week dietary intervention. Wish I had access to the whole study, but it sounds like they gave a diet plan and found different levels of compliance.I'd be interested in seeing a study that shows a supposed difference in insulin sensitivity and calorie burn.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15897479 found that insulin resistant women lost more weight on lower carb (40%C) and insulin sensitive lost more on low fat (60%C). "These differences could not be explained by changes in resting metabolic rate, activity, or intake. Overall, changes in Si were associated with the degree of weight loss (r = -0.57, p < 0.05)."
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Similar finding in http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/28/12/2939.full "A Low-Glycemic Load Diet Facilitates Greater Weight Loss in Overweight Adults With High Insulin Secretion but Not in Overweight Adults With Low Insulin Secretion in the CALERIE Trial"
and https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/343507
"Insulin Resistance Predicts the Effectiveness of Different Glycemic Index Diets on Weight Loss in Non-Obese Women"0 -
I'd be interested in seeing a study that shows a supposed difference in insulin sensitivity and calorie burn.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15897479 found that insulin resistant women lost more weight on lower carb (40%C) and insulin sensitive lost more on low fat (60%C). "These differences could not be explained by changes in resting metabolic rate, activity, or intake. Overall, changes in Si were associated with the degree of weight loss (r = -0.57, p < 0.05)."
Well, if they were truly taking in the same amount of calories and losing more on one macro composition than the other, the only explanation that would not necessitate us having to throw out everything we know about energy, would be that somewhere along the line one of the diets created a bigger deficit than the other, or the other created a smaller deficit, or a bit of both, in some way they didn't think of checking.
While the thought of an observation of overweight women dieting leading to shattering the very foundations of what we thought physics was is amusing, I don't think that's the case, so I'm going with "something changed their deficit on one of the diets".0 -
It's virtually impossible to calculate where a leaf falling to the ground is going to land. That doesn't mean the leaf is violating the laws of physics.lindsey1979 wrote: »You also have the issue that the CO part is virtually impossible to calculate with any accuracy independently -- most calculate it based on a lot of assumptions (such as common BMR numbers) or in reverse based on their weight loss result (which once again with the fat/muscle issue is only an estimate at best). So when people talk about the law being indisputable, it is true but also not completely accurate as applied to the extremely complex system of the human body.
Even talking complexity into account, you're arguing edge cases in which the absolute numbers might not always line up, but they don't always line up in any approach.
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stevencloser wrote: »While the thought of an observation of overweight women dieting leading to shattering the very foundations of what we thought physics was is amusing, I don't think that's the case, so I'm going with "something changed their deficit on one of the diets".
as per the italics, they weren't able to explain it either. I did once read the full paper and it came over as pretty methodical. It's not like it's the only study coming up with that conclusion. Errors in body composition analysis would be my favourite as a bit more or less fat here and there can swing the numbers a lot, but as I said further up there aren't many studies that pop out with the magical 3500 = 1 lb either.
Here's another showing measured RMR variations with diabetes that comes up with +110 kcal/day in diabetics, possibly due to increased energy cost of excess glucose production in the liver - http://www.biomedcentral.com/1756-0500/6/3820 -
For weight loss it is definitely CICO, for health it's a whole different ball game.0
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PeachyCarol wrote: »I argue that dietary compliance trumps everything when it comes to long term weight management.
Agreed. For some people, compliance is supported by often choosing foods and ratios etc. that promote satiety.0 -
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A bit more reading suggests that activity may be responsible at least in part, Cornier cites Levine http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9880251 as finding large variations in NEAT responsible for variations in fat gain during overfeeding :
In other words the maths only works if you measure everything rigorously and correctly and don't assume CO is a constant.
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TheDudeLovesFood wrote: »lindsey1979 wrote: »CICO is a great guideline but it has its limitations when applied to the human body -- because unlike the physics law in a closed system, the human body has a lot more variables -- we literally have 1000s of chemical reactions in our metabolic pathways, and the coefficients and efficiency of those reactions can vary greatly, especially as influenced by various hormones. Plus, you have the issue that a lb of fat releases 3500 cals, but a lb of muscle releases a lot less (something like 900-1700). So depending on your fat to muscle ratio in your weight loss will greatly change your numbers on the scale -- if you're losing more muscle, the numbers will go down quicker. If you're losing more fat, the numbers will go down slower.
You also have the issue that the CO part is virtually impossible to calculate with any accuracy independently -- most calculate it based on a lot of assumptions (such as common BMR numbers) or in reverse based on their weight loss result (which once again with the fat/muscle issue is only an estimate at best). So when people talk about the law being indisputable, it is true but also not completely accurate as applied to the extremely complex system of the human body.
And then you have things like pesky hormones and how they can effect the equation -- which a lot of people don't want to admit exist because it can get soooo complicated at this point. Whether you're talking insulin, thyroid, HGH, grehlin, leptin, etc. -- it goes on and on and we really are only starting to scratch the surface of how this all works.
An easy hormone example is someone that has insulin resistance. There was a study in 2012 or so that showed that women with good insulin sensitivity lost nearly twice as much weight as their counterparts on a higher carb diet isocaloric deficit diet (protein was the same and caloric deficit was the same). But their insulin resistance counterparts had the exact opposite happen -- they lost nearly twice as much weight on the lower carb diet. Same amounts of protein, same deficit and drastically different results based on carb/fat ratio depending on the individual woman's insulin sensitivity/resistance. So, that's a powerful example of how all calories are not all equal and would produce drastically different results in different women for the same amount of total calories.
And before anyone gets all up in arms about how insulin resistance is rare -- it's not. Per the CDC, over 40% of US adults have insulin resistance at diabetic or prediabetic levels -- the vast majority of which don't know it. I think actual numbers from their 2014 report (which had data from 2010-2012 I think) was something like 9.3% had diabetes and 37% had insulin resistance at prediabetic levels -- that's over 46%, or almost half of the population of US adults! That's a LOT of people.
So, CICO is a great guideline and definitely a place to start when you're looking to lose weight. But, if you find yourself not seeing results after following it (and you're truly accurately weighing/measuring your food), then you need to start to look at issues outside of CICO such as insulin resistance, thyroid, etc. Because you might be in that half of the population that has an issue that shifts the equation from its commonly understood applications.
None of that meals CICO not a valid formula. Everything you mentioned factors into CO but just because we can't fully determine what the numbers really are doesn't mean it's now invalid.
I didn't say it was invalid, but had limitations as far as applying it to the human body (especially for weight loss). Difficulty or impossibility in practical application is a pretty big limitation when you're talking about weight loss or other similar things.0 -
TheDudeLovesFood wrote: »A bit more reading suggests that activity may be responsible at least in part, Cornier cites Levine http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9880251 as finding large variations in NEAT responsible for variations in fat gain during overfeeding :
In other words the maths only works if you measure everything rigorously and correctly and don't assume CO is a constant.
With all that said, the confusion is, CICO is still valid.
Yes, but I think the point is that CO is hard to establish because it varies so much between people, and even day to day, or meal to meal. Some foods (CI) will change what an individual's CO is for a time, and some foods (CI) make it easier or harder to eat at a caloric deficit.
Just my interpretation.0 -
It's not difficult or impossible. If you're losing too quickly, eat more. Too slowly, eat less. At the pace you want, keep doing it.lindsey1979 wrote: »TheDudeLovesFood wrote: »lindsey1979 wrote: »CICO is a great guideline but it has its limitations when applied to the human body -- because unlike the physics law in a closed system, the human body has a lot more variables -- we literally have 1000s of chemical reactions in our metabolic pathways, and the coefficients and efficiency of those reactions can vary greatly, especially as influenced by various hormones. Plus, you have the issue that a lb of fat releases 3500 cals, but a lb of muscle releases a lot less (something like 900-1700). So depending on your fat to muscle ratio in your weight loss will greatly change your numbers on the scale -- if you're losing more muscle, the numbers will go down quicker. If you're losing more fat, the numbers will go down slower.
You also have the issue that the CO part is virtually impossible to calculate with any accuracy independently -- most calculate it based on a lot of assumptions (such as common BMR numbers) or in reverse based on their weight loss result (which once again with the fat/muscle issue is only an estimate at best). So when people talk about the law being indisputable, it is true but also not completely accurate as applied to the extremely complex system of the human body.
And then you have things like pesky hormones and how they can effect the equation -- which a lot of people don't want to admit exist because it can get soooo complicated at this point. Whether you're talking insulin, thyroid, HGH, grehlin, leptin, etc. -- it goes on and on and we really are only starting to scratch the surface of how this all works.
An easy hormone example is someone that has insulin resistance. There was a study in 2012 or so that showed that women with good insulin sensitivity lost nearly twice as much weight as their counterparts on a higher carb diet isocaloric deficit diet (protein was the same and caloric deficit was the same). But their insulin resistance counterparts had the exact opposite happen -- they lost nearly twice as much weight on the lower carb diet. Same amounts of protein, same deficit and drastically different results based on carb/fat ratio depending on the individual woman's insulin sensitivity/resistance. So, that's a powerful example of how all calories are not all equal and would produce drastically different results in different women for the same amount of total calories.
And before anyone gets all up in arms about how insulin resistance is rare -- it's not. Per the CDC, over 40% of US adults have insulin resistance at diabetic or prediabetic levels -- the vast majority of which don't know it. I think actual numbers from their 2014 report (which had data from 2010-2012 I think) was something like 9.3% had diabetes and 37% had insulin resistance at prediabetic levels -- that's over 46%, or almost half of the population of US adults! That's a LOT of people.
So, CICO is a great guideline and definitely a place to start when you're looking to lose weight. But, if you find yourself not seeing results after following it (and you're truly accurately weighing/measuring your food), then you need to start to look at issues outside of CICO such as insulin resistance, thyroid, etc. Because you might be in that half of the population that has an issue that shifts the equation from its commonly understood applications.
None of that meals CICO not a valid formula. Everything you mentioned factors into CO but just because we can't fully determine what the numbers really are doesn't mean it's now invalid.
I didn't say it was invalid, but had limitations as far as applying it to the human body (especially for weight loss). Difficulty or impossibility in practical application is a pretty big limitation when you're talking about weight loss or other similar things.
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Meal-to-meal and day-to-day don't matter for CO any more than they matter for weight. Look at the trends.TheDudeLovesFood wrote: »A bit more reading suggests that activity may be responsible at least in part, Cornier cites Levine http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9880251 as finding large variations in NEAT responsible for variations in fat gain during overfeeding :
In other words the maths only works if you measure everything rigorously and correctly and don't assume CO is a constant.
With all that said, the confusion is, CICO is still valid.
Yes, but I think the point is that CO is hard to establish because it varies so much between people, and even day to day, or meal to meal. Some foods (CI) will change what an individual's CO is for a time, and some foods (CI) make it easier or harder to eat at a caloric deficit.
Just my interpretation.
How do some foods make it harder or easier to eat at a deficit? Are you talking about caloric density and satiety or something else?
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
Meal-to-meal and day-to-day don't matter for CO any more than they matter for weight. Look at the trends.TheDudeLovesFood wrote: »A bit more reading suggests that activity may be responsible at least in part, Cornier cites Levine http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9880251 as finding large variations in NEAT responsible for variations in fat gain during overfeeding :
In other words the maths only works if you measure everything rigorously and correctly and don't assume CO is a constant.
With all that said, the confusion is, CICO is still valid.
Yes, but I think the point is that CO is hard to establish because it varies so much between people, and even day to day, or meal to meal. Some foods (CI) will change what an individual's CO is for a time, and some foods (CI) make it easier or harder to eat at a caloric deficit.
Just my interpretation.
How do some foods make it harder or easier to eat at a deficit? Are you talking about caloric density and satiety or something else?
I was referring to satiety and factors like hormones (ex. insulin, cortisol, and IGF-1). Those hormones will have an effect, albeit not a huge one, on CO.0 -
Yeah, not a huge one. If those factors are preventing you from losing weight, you're probably eating too much, regardless.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Meal-to-meal and day-to-day don't matter for CO any more than they matter for weight. Look at the trends.TheDudeLovesFood wrote: »A bit more reading suggests that activity may be responsible at least in part, Cornier cites Levine http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9880251 as finding large variations in NEAT responsible for variations in fat gain during overfeeding :
In other words the maths only works if you measure everything rigorously and correctly and don't assume CO is a constant.
With all that said, the confusion is, CICO is still valid.
Yes, but I think the point is that CO is hard to establish because it varies so much between people, and even day to day, or meal to meal. Some foods (CI) will change what an individual's CO is for a time, and some foods (CI) make it easier or harder to eat at a caloric deficit.
Just my interpretation.
How do some foods make it harder or easier to eat at a deficit? Are you talking about caloric density and satiety or something else?
I was referring to satiety and factors like hormones (ex. insulin, cortisol, and IGF-1). Those hormones will have an effect, albeit not a huge one, on CO.
The fact that we can't account for each and every tenth of a calorie in real time seems more like a distraction than a help. It doesn't make a real world difference in almost any conceivable case.
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UltimateRBF wrote: »lindsey1979 wrote: »CICO is a great guideline but it has its limitations when applied to the human body -- because unlike the physics law in a closed system, the human body has a lot more variables -- we literally have 1000s of chemical reactions in our metabolic pathways, and the coefficients and efficiency of those reactions can vary greatly, especially as influenced by various hormones. Plus, you have the issue that a lb of fat releases 3500 cals, but a lb of muscle releases a lot less (something like 900-1700). So depending on your fat to muscle ratio in your weight loss will greatly change your numbers on the scale -- if you're losing more muscle, the numbers will go down quicker. If you're losing more fat, the numbers will go down slower.
You also have the issue that the CO part is virtually impossible to calculate with any accuracy independently -- most calculate it based on a lot of assumptions (such as common BMR numbers) or in reverse based on their weight loss result (which once again with the fat/muscle issue is only an estimate at best). So when people talk about the law being indisputable, it is true but also not completely accurate as applied to the extremely complex system of the human body.
And then you have things like pesky hormones and how they can effect the equation -- which a lot of people don't want to admit exist because it can get soooo complicated at this point. Whether you're talking insulin, thyroid, HGH, grehlin, leptin, etc. -- it goes on and on and we really are only starting to scratch the surface of how this all works.
An easy hormone example is someone that has insulin resistance. There was a study in 2012 or so that showed that women with good insulin sensitivity lost nearly twice as much weight as their counterparts on a higher carb diet isocaloric deficit diet (protein was the same and caloric deficit was the same). But their insulin resistance counterparts had the exact opposite happen -- they lost nearly twice as much weight on the lower carb diet. Same amounts of protein, same deficit and drastically different results based on carb/fat ratio depending on the individual woman's insulin sensitivity/resistance. So, that's a powerful example of how all calories are not all equal and would produce drastically different results in different women for the same amount of total calories.
And before anyone gets all up in arms about how insulin resistance is rare -- it's not. Per the CDC, over 40% of US adults have insulin resistance at diabetic or prediabetic levels -- the vast majority of which don't know it. I think actual numbers from their 2014 report (which had data from 2010-2012 I think) was something like 9.3% had diabetes and 37% had insulin resistance at prediabetic levels -- that's over 46%, or almost half of the population of US adults! That's a LOT of people.
So, CICO is a great guideline and definitely a place to start when you're looking to lose weight. But, if you find yourself not seeing results after following it (and you're truly accurately weighing/measuring your food), then you need to start to look at issues outside of CICO such as insulin resistance, thyroid, etc. Because you might be in that half of the population that has an issue that shifts the equation from its commonly understood applications.
Oh, you're back. Insulin resistance is still your favourite topic I see.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Meal-to-meal and day-to-day don't matter for CO any more than they matter for weight. Look at the trends.TheDudeLovesFood wrote: »A bit more reading suggests that activity may be responsible at least in part, Cornier cites Levine http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9880251 as finding large variations in NEAT responsible for variations in fat gain during overfeeding :
In other words the maths only works if you measure everything rigorously and correctly and don't assume CO is a constant.
With all that said, the confusion is, CICO is still valid.
Yes, but I think the point is that CO is hard to establish because it varies so much between people, and even day to day, or meal to meal. Some foods (CI) will change what an individual's CO is for a time, and some foods (CI) make it easier or harder to eat at a caloric deficit.
Just my interpretation.
How do some foods make it harder or easier to eat at a deficit? Are you talking about caloric density and satiety or something else?
I was referring to satiety and factors like hormones (ex. insulin, cortisol, and IGF-1). Those hormones will have an effect, albeit not a huge one, on CO.
And it's not only CO but how yourbody is able to access energy.
For example, if you're storing more cals as fat (like with insulin resistance), you'll feel more fatigued. To battle the fatigue, you eat more and end up overeating. So even though you need the energy, your body isn't accessing it effectively and you either end up with people that are very fatigued or overeating. That's one of the reasons why it can be so difficult to lose/maintain with IR, especially if you have a lot of carbs in your diet. Similar issues can be seen with thyroid issues, but totally different mechanism.
The ability to metabolize foods effectively for energy is one of the variables I referenced earlier. I choose IR as an example in particular because (1) it's a metabolic condition and (2) it's incredibly widespread (at least in U.S. adults).
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lindsey1979 wrote: »UltimateRBF wrote: »lindsey1979 wrote: »CICO is a great guideline but it has its limitations when applied to the human body -- because unlike the physics law in a closed system, the human body has a lot more variables -- we literally have 1000s of chemical reactions in our metabolic pathways, and the coefficients and efficiency of those reactions can vary greatly, especially as influenced by various hormones. Plus, you have the issue that a lb of fat releases 3500 cals, but a lb of muscle releases a lot less (something like 900-1700). So depending on your fat to muscle ratio in your weight loss will greatly change your numbers on the scale -- if you're losing more muscle, the numbers will go down quicker. If you're losing more fat, the numbers will go down slower.
You also have the issue that the CO part is virtually impossible to calculate with any accuracy independently -- most calculate it based on a lot of assumptions (such as common BMR numbers) or in reverse based on their weight loss result (which once again with the fat/muscle issue is only an estimate at best). So when people talk about the law being indisputable, it is true but also not completely accurate as applied to the extremely complex system of the human body.
And then you have things like pesky hormones and how they can effect the equation -- which a lot of people don't want to admit exist because it can get soooo complicated at this point. Whether you're talking insulin, thyroid, HGH, grehlin, leptin, etc. -- it goes on and on and we really are only starting to scratch the surface of how this all works.
An easy hormone example is someone that has insulin resistance. There was a study in 2012 or so that showed that women with good insulin sensitivity lost nearly twice as much weight as their counterparts on a higher carb diet isocaloric deficit diet (protein was the same and caloric deficit was the same). But their insulin resistance counterparts had the exact opposite happen -- they lost nearly twice as much weight on the lower carb diet. Same amounts of protein, same deficit and drastically different results based on carb/fat ratio depending on the individual woman's insulin sensitivity/resistance. So, that's a powerful example of how all calories are not all equal and would produce drastically different results in different women for the same amount of total calories.
And before anyone gets all up in arms about how insulin resistance is rare -- it's not. Per the CDC, over 40% of US adults have insulin resistance at diabetic or prediabetic levels -- the vast majority of which don't know it. I think actual numbers from their 2014 report (which had data from 2010-2012 I think) was something like 9.3% had diabetes and 37% had insulin resistance at prediabetic levels -- that's over 46%, or almost half of the population of US adults! That's a LOT of people.
So, CICO is a great guideline and definitely a place to start when you're looking to lose weight. But, if you find yourself not seeing results after following it (and you're truly accurately weighing/measuring your food), then you need to start to look at issues outside of CICO such as insulin resistance, thyroid, etc. Because you might be in that half of the population that has an issue that shifts the equation from its commonly understood applications.
Oh, you're back. Insulin resistance is still your favourite topic I see.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Meal-to-meal and day-to-day don't matter for CO any more than they matter for weight. Look at the trends.TheDudeLovesFood wrote: »A bit more reading suggests that activity may be responsible at least in part, Cornier cites Levine http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9880251 as finding large variations in NEAT responsible for variations in fat gain during overfeeding :
In other words the maths only works if you measure everything rigorously and correctly and don't assume CO is a constant.
With all that said, the confusion is, CICO is still valid.
Yes, but I think the point is that CO is hard to establish because it varies so much between people, and even day to day, or meal to meal. Some foods (CI) will change what an individual's CO is for a time, and some foods (CI) make it easier or harder to eat at a caloric deficit.
Just my interpretation.
How do some foods make it harder or easier to eat at a deficit? Are you talking about caloric density and satiety or something else?
I was referring to satiety and factors like hormones (ex. insulin, cortisol, and IGF-1). Those hormones will have an effect, albeit not a huge one, on CO.
And it's not only CO but how yourbody is able to access energy.
For example, if you're storing more cals as fat (like with insulin resistance), you'll feel more fatigued. To battle the fatigue, you eat more and end up overeating. So even though you need the energy, your body isn't accessing it effectively and you either end up with people that are very fatigued or overeating. That's one of the reasons why it can be so difficult to lose/maintain with IR, especially if you have a lot of carbs in your diet. Similar issues can be seen with thyroid issues, but totally different mechanism.
The ability to metabolize foods effectively for energy is one of the variables I referenced earlier. I choose IR as an example in particular because (1) it's a metabolic condition and (2) it's incredibly widespread (at least in U.S. adults).
The bolded was very true for me. I have IR and some autoimmune issues which contributed to fatigue. Eating the way my body seems to need alleviates that fatigue and the behaviour of looking for foods for energy.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Yeah, not a huge one. If those factors are preventing you from losing weight, you're probably eating too much, regardless.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Meal-to-meal and day-to-day don't matter for CO any more than they matter for weight. Look at the trends.TheDudeLovesFood wrote: »A bit more reading suggests that activity may be responsible at least in part, Cornier cites Levine http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9880251 as finding large variations in NEAT responsible for variations in fat gain during overfeeding :
In other words the maths only works if you measure everything rigorously and correctly and don't assume CO is a constant.
With all that said, the confusion is, CICO is still valid.
Yes, but I think the point is that CO is hard to establish because it varies so much between people, and even day to day, or meal to meal. Some foods (CI) will change what an individual's CO is for a time, and some foods (CI) make it easier or harder to eat at a caloric deficit.
Just my interpretation.
How do some foods make it harder or easier to eat at a deficit? Are you talking about caloric density and satiety or something else?
I was referring to satiety and factors like hormones (ex. insulin, cortisol, and IGF-1). Those hormones will have an effect, albeit not a huge one, on CO.
The fact that we can't account for each and every tenth of a calorie in real time seems more like a distraction than a help. It doesn't make a real world difference in almost any conceivable case.
It's not a huge difference but it contributes. I had a year where I had to take steroids, had high IGF-1 to the point of worrying about acromegaly, and I developed IR. I felt pretty poorly and I gained 20lbs that year. Yes, I did over eat, and eat some poor food choices, but those other factors played a role too. How much, I don't know and never will.0 -
You don't have to be accurate down to the kilocalorie for it to be practical.lindsey1979 wrote: »TheDudeLovesFood wrote: »lindsey1979 wrote: »CICO is a great guideline but it has its limitations when applied to the human body -- because unlike the physics law in a closed system, the human body has a lot more variables -- we literally have 1000s of chemical reactions in our metabolic pathways, and the coefficients and efficiency of those reactions can vary greatly, especially as influenced by various hormones. Plus, you have the issue that a lb of fat releases 3500 cals, but a lb of muscle releases a lot less (something like 900-1700). So depending on your fat to muscle ratio in your weight loss will greatly change your numbers on the scale -- if you're losing more muscle, the numbers will go down quicker. If you're losing more fat, the numbers will go down slower.
You also have the issue that the CO part is virtually impossible to calculate with any accuracy independently -- most calculate it based on a lot of assumptions (such as common BMR numbers) or in reverse based on their weight loss result (which once again with the fat/muscle issue is only an estimate at best). So when people talk about the law being indisputable, it is true but also not completely accurate as applied to the extremely complex system of the human body.
And then you have things like pesky hormones and how they can effect the equation -- which a lot of people don't want to admit exist because it can get soooo complicated at this point. Whether you're talking insulin, thyroid, HGH, grehlin, leptin, etc. -- it goes on and on and we really are only starting to scratch the surface of how this all works.
An easy hormone example is someone that has insulin resistance. There was a study in 2012 or so that showed that women with good insulin sensitivity lost nearly twice as much weight as their counterparts on a higher carb diet isocaloric deficit diet (protein was the same and caloric deficit was the same). But their insulin resistance counterparts had the exact opposite happen -- they lost nearly twice as much weight on the lower carb diet. Same amounts of protein, same deficit and drastically different results based on carb/fat ratio depending on the individual woman's insulin sensitivity/resistance. So, that's a powerful example of how all calories are not all equal and would produce drastically different results in different women for the same amount of total calories.
And before anyone gets all up in arms about how insulin resistance is rare -- it's not. Per the CDC, over 40% of US adults have insulin resistance at diabetic or prediabetic levels -- the vast majority of which don't know it. I think actual numbers from their 2014 report (which had data from 2010-2012 I think) was something like 9.3% had diabetes and 37% had insulin resistance at prediabetic levels -- that's over 46%, or almost half of the population of US adults! That's a LOT of people.
So, CICO is a great guideline and definitely a place to start when you're looking to lose weight. But, if you find yourself not seeing results after following it (and you're truly accurately weighing/measuring your food), then you need to start to look at issues outside of CICO such as insulin resistance, thyroid, etc. Because you might be in that half of the population that has an issue that shifts the equation from its commonly understood applications.
None of that meals CICO not a valid formula. Everything you mentioned factors into CO but just because we can't fully determine what the numbers really are doesn't mean it's now invalid.
I didn't say it was invalid, but had limitations as far as applying it to the human body (especially for weight loss). Difficulty or impossibility in practical application is a pretty big limitation when you're talking about weight loss or other similar things.
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