Gaining muscle mass/without spilling over in bodyfat %?
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Little background story - recently started going to the gym CONSISTENTLY I say this because I have been going for 2 years .. But only working out maybe 3 days one week , take 3 weeks off ect. Never gone for a month straight.
Now diet wise I've been eating roughly 3400 calories a day. 370-400 carbs, 70-85 grams of fat, 250-270 grams of protein. I'm 24 yr old male 5'10 186lbs. Never been fat in my life always was petite ,. I have a noticeably pudgier face/ lower stomach appears a bit pudgy as well, which I had expected a bit with the caloric surplus. I don't like the fat and I don't want it to get too out of control but I'm not to the point where I want to start cutting because I haven't put on the muscle I want yet. If that makes sense.
My routine looks like this
Go to the gym early in the morning fasted.
Chest/biceps
Day off
Back/triceps
Day off
Calves/abs
Shoulders
Day off
Quads/hams
Day off
Day off
Usually have a protein shake after work out and a grape juice/5g creatine. 40min -1 hour later eat a meal.
So anyways sorry for the super long post, my overall question is should I continue down the path I am and see if I see results or is there any advice on gaining lean mass while keeping body fat at bay. Thanks,
No, he didn't say consistent. Lifting for a week and then skipping the next three isn't consistency. I agree with not bulking at a high body fat percentage. I disagree with your accusations of his genetic potential and ability to gain.
Lyle was admittedly bipolar, doesn't mean hid information is sub par.0 -
Thanks!
The point is why would you listen to a guy that has never been lean and has no muscle mass advise you on lean bulking.
Fitness is full of smoke and mirrors. It's hard enough getting decent advise.
There are plenty of people who have no knowledge of nutrtion or science but are fairly ripped.. know why, they can follow a designed plan.
Agree, I hire coaches for contest prep.
I have a really good example of a guy that has been following a designed plan with a good training for years and looks OK but will probably never look awesome. If your on Instagram look up @Theonlinecoach and his partner @tankst3r I have met these guys a few times. @TheOnlineCoach is awesome looking while his partner is not bad but not great. This is where genetics play a huge role.
So lets look at this constructively. .. you hired a professional since you don't have the knowledge to contest prep on your own, which is cool, especially if it was a new goal of yours. But yet, you can sit back and judge others because they arent as big as you (which for you big = knowledge). Maybe it would be best for you to step back an evaluate your thought process and realize not everyone wants to be big like you. Some of us have goals based on personal interest and life.
And to address the OP, no he shouldnt bulk at 20%, it would be better to be at least sub 15 or even 12.
Also, maybe you should go look at alan aragon and see how ripped he his and then question his knowledge based on those looks.0 -
OP, ignore the nonsense about only being able to gain 5 pounds lean mass (lol) and do a little reading. I recommend you pick up a few books
Starting Strength - Mark Rippetoe
Beyond Brawn - don't remember
5/3/1 - Jim Wendler
And get online and really pay attention to Alan Aragon and Layne Norton.
That is enough to get you started. But honestly, before you do an isolation split program, get on a consistent compound lift barbell program. Add in isolation work after you've mastered the basics.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »Little background story - recently started going to the gym CONSISTENTLY I say this because I have been going for 2 years .. But only working out maybe 3 days one week , take 3 weeks off ect. Never gone for a month straight.
Now diet wise I've been eating roughly 3400 calories a day. 370-400 carbs, 70-85 grams of fat, 250-270 grams of protein. I'm 24 yr old male 5'10 186lbs. Never been fat in my life always was petite ,. I have a noticeably pudgier face/ lower stomach appears a bit pudgy as well, which I had expected a bit with the caloric surplus. I don't like the fat and I don't want it to get too out of control but I'm not to the point where I want to start cutting because I haven't put on the muscle I want yet. If that makes sense.
My routine looks like this
Go to the gym early in the morning fasted.
Chest/biceps
Day off
Back/triceps
Day off
Calves/abs
Shoulders
Day off
Quads/hams
Day off
Day off
Usually have a protein shake after work out and a grape juice/5g creatine. 40min -1 hour later eat a meal.
So anyways sorry for the super long post, my overall question is should I continue down the path I am and see if I see results or is there any advice on gaining lean mass while keeping body fat at bay. Thanks,
No, he didn't say consistent. Lifting for a week and then skipping the next three isn't consistency. I agree with not bulking at a high body fat percentage. I disagree with your accusations of his genetic potential and ability to gain.
Lyle was admittedly bipolar, doesn't mean hid information is sub par.
Now another question, have you seen a guy that was a twig, skinny fat type guy gain an impressive amount of muscle in 1-2 years without extreme dedication naturally?
I don't see your point?0 -
I
Here is what I'm talking about. You can't gain enough muscle
To over come your fat. You have to eliminate the fat. This is my recent cut a few months ago. People find it hard to believe I'm still not 160-170lbs.
What does this have to do with potential to gain for an individual that has not been lifting consistently and more than likely not exhausted beginner stages?0 -
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I
Here is what I'm talking about. You can't gain enough muscle
To over come your fat. You have to eliminate the fat. This is my recent cut a few months ago. People find it hard to believe I'm still not 160-170lbs.
Are you short?
ETA: I ask this because I'm a female who is 5'8" and my lean mass is 153 pounds. I started lifting in 2012 and competed in my first show in 2013. I have fat genetics, my entire family is obese.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Little background story - recently started going to the gym CONSISTENTLY I say this because I have been going for 2 years .. But only working out maybe 3 days one week , take 3 weeks off ect. Never gone for a month straight.
Now diet wise I've been eating roughly 3400 calories a day. 370-400 carbs, 70-85 grams of fat, 250-270 grams of protein. I'm 24 yr old male 5'10 186lbs. Never been fat in my life always was petite ,. I have a noticeably pudgier face/ lower stomach appears a bit pudgy as well, which I had expected a bit with the caloric surplus. I don't like the fat and I don't want it to get too out of control but I'm not to the point where I want to start cutting because I haven't put on the muscle I want yet. If that makes sense.
My routine looks like this
Go to the gym early in the morning fasted.
Chest/biceps
Day off
Back/triceps
Day off
Calves/abs
Shoulders
Day off
Quads/hams
Day off
Day off
Usually have a protein shake after work out and a grape juice/5g creatine. 40min -1 hour later eat a meal.
So anyways sorry for the super long post, my overall question is should I continue down the path I am and see if I see results or is there any advice on gaining lean mass while keeping body fat at bay. Thanks,
No, he didn't say consistent. Lifting for a week and then skipping the next three isn't consistency. I agree with not bulking at a high body fat percentage. I disagree with your accusations of his genetic potential and ability to gain.
Lyle was admittedly bipolar, doesn't mean hid information is sub par.
Now another question, have you seen a guy that was a twig, skinny fat type guy gain an impressive amount of muscle in 1-2 years without extreme dedication naturally?
I don't see your point?
Me either!0 -
The quest he is asking should and can he do a lean bulk. No one seems to think that is a bad idea.
No one thinks he is fat already. 20%bf is bulk enough. What when he is 200lbs 25%bf he will look better.
Sure he needs a solid training and nutrition plan. I see it all day every day the guy that wants to look ripped but thinks he needs to do It by bulking and adding more muscle when most of the time they just need to diet.
My advise is to not bulk but cut slowly and get his macros correct. Get down to a weight where your abs are visible at least faintly. Then do mini bulks and cuts to add muscle mass.
A few of us have already agreed with you that bulking while being over-fat is not suggested since i can lead to an unfavorable fat:muscle growth situation (he is more primed to gain fat). The research i have seen would suggest the leaner you are the more primed your body would be to achieve muscle gains. So yes, its a bad idea to bulk at 20%. Its probably better to cut another 5 to 10% body fat prior to bulking.
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Ok so I'll begin looking for a cutting routine and diet.0
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The quest he is asking should and can he do a lean bulk. No one seems to think that is a bad idea.
No one thinks he is fat already. 20%bf is bulk enough. What when he is 200lbs 25%bf he will look better.
Sure he needs a solid training and nutrition plan. I see it all day every day the guy that wants to look ripped but thinks he needs to do It by bulking and adding more muscle when most of the time they just need to diet.
My advise is to not bulk but cut slowly and get his macros correct. Get down to a weight where your abs are visible at least faintly. Then do mini bulks and cuts to add muscle mass.
See pics, OP is not 20%. Probably lower teens, 13-14%..does lack a little size in areas. He could lean out a little more, but he is NOT fat.
What's the point of posting Raymond's pic again, to name drop? He's a genetic outlier anyway, even as an alleged natural.0 -
If anyone could add me/pm me that could help me out I would appreciate it greatly., was thinking about getting a personal trainer since I'm so new.0
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I like Lyle's advice to ideally get down to 10-12% before starting a bulk:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/core3.htm
I agree you are around 13-14% now so your LBM is about 161 lbs. That means you would need to cut down to about 179 lbs to get to 10%. The farther you go below that, the more you risk losing LBM while cutting. Judging by your pics you have lots of room for natural potential gains left. Don't forget to reverse diet into your bulk.0 -
Well when I was 176 I was like this
But I felt too skinny cuz I haven't really put on any muscle size .
So I should what? Try eating maintenance and doing a compound full body routine for a bit? Or that PHUL 4 day upper lower split? Not sure if you can send pm's here but sorry for this long thread and all my questions lol0 -
I've been eating roughly 3400 calories a day. 370-400 carbs, 70-85 grams of fat, 250-270 grams of protein.
For someone who wishes to bulk wisely, you are overconsuming protein and underconsuming dietary fat. Protein is the most expensive macronutrient in the supermarket. Why would you eat double the protein you need if it isn't going to do anything for new muscle synthesis? (more on that below)...
Also, why would you not eat more dietary fat? At 9 calories per gram, dietary fat is the macronutrient with the highest caloric load so it will be easier to bulk with a diet higher in fat. Protein and carbs are both 4 calories per gram, so upping those macros while keeping dietary fat low will be an uphill battle to bulk town.
Macronutrient Targets:- Protein: 0.60-0.80 grams per pound of bodyweight -- the highest amount justified by research for active individuals. You can push this to 1 gram per pound if you wish, but too much more than this, and you're just wasting money.
- Dietary Fat: 0.40-0.45 grams per pound of bodyweight -- the lowest amount implied by clinical observation (unless obese). Someone who is maintaining or bulking should be getting more than this.
- Remaining caloric budget: whatever mix of macronutrients you prefer. I recommend a rich variety of high fiber foods, nutritious carbs, fruits, veggies, and healthy fats.
I'm 24 yr old male 5'10 186lbs.
If your activity level is moderate and you're about 16% bodyfat, which you seem to be, then I have your TDEE (maintenance calories) around 2,950 per day. A clean bulk would be 10% greater calories than this figure, which will result in increased mass, but not so drastic to cause excess bodyfat. A dirty bulk (20% greater cals than TDEE) will add some chub along with your bulk. You don't want to do that... a cut would be the opposite by the way, 10-20% less than TDEE.
Page 2 of this calculator (ignore everything else) will help you gauge your current TDEE: http://www.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/
Enter: age, gender, height, weight, activity level, and bodyfat%
For your current weight and goals:
2,950 x 10% = 3,245 cals/day target- Using the 0.60-0.80 g/lb. factor ~ 112-149 grams protein per day (444-596 calories) can up this to 1g/lb. if desired
- Using a higher 0.70-0.90 g/lb. factor ~ 130-167 grams dietary fat per day (1170-1503 calories)
- Remaining caloric budget (see above recommendations)
Adjust macronutrient goals for every 5 lbs. lost or gained.My routine looks like this
Go to the gym early in the morning fasted.
Chest/biceps
Day off
Back/triceps
Day off
Calves/abs
Shoulders
Day off
Quads/hams
Day off
Day off
That's quite the poor routine. Check out the workout programs section on bodybuilding.com for a better routine with more of a goal progressing pattern and less rest days. You don't need a trainer per se, but try to think about what a trainer would tell you. A good trainer will look at your body and see the areas you need to work on more. From your pictures, you really need to focus on your chest; that is your weak point. Traps could use some work. Try to incorporate more lower back and oblique exercises too.Usually have a protein shake after work out and a grape juice/5g creatine. 40min -1 hour later eat a meal.
Timing protein and creatine is essentially a useless strategy. For protein, what matters is total daily intake. Be consistent with that goal vs. timing protein around your workouts. Your muscles will not go catabolic if you don't ingest a quick shot of protein immediately after a workout.
Creatine is a system saturater; it doesn't matter when you take it, just as long as you are consistently taking 3-5 grams every day or even every other day. Personally, I would get unflavored micronized creapure creatine monohydrate and just mix that into water or my protein shake.
I hope that helped. Good luck!0 - Protein: 0.60-0.80 grams per pound of bodyweight -- the highest amount justified by research for active individuals. You can push this to 1 gram per pound if you wish, but too much more than this, and you're just wasting money.
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My opinion (take it with a grain of salt since I've never bulked myself) is to lose a little bit more weight, then do a long, slow bulk (a slow bulk will help limit how much fat you put on, but you will put on some). Go ahead and switch to a full body routine since you're lifting 3 days a week. Lots of programs meet that criteria; go with a tried and true program such as starting strength, strong lifts, ICF 5x5, etc. You can do these beginning programs both while on a deficit and while bulking.0
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Well when I was 176 I was like this
But I felt too skinny cuz I haven't really put on any muscle size .
So I should what? Try eating maintenance and doing a compound full body routine for a bit? Or that PHUL 4 day upper lower split? Not sure if you can send pm's here but sorry for this long thread and all my questions lol
Sorry if I misread your original post; I thought you had not started your bulk yet. If you are already in the middle of your bulk, there is no harm in riding it out until you get up to 15-18% or wherever you start to feel too fat. Do you mind posting your maxes on the compound lifts? That will give us a better idea about what program you should try out. Beginners and most intermediates have lots of room to make initial strength gains and usually do better bulking on a high frequency strength-oriented program instead of a pure hypertrophy program. Reassess your macros and your calorie intake (sixxpoint gave you some good advice there). Track your weight, and if you are gaining more than 1 pound a week, it is probably too aggressive and will result in a higher fat:muscle gain ratio.0 -
squat 225 6 reps
flat bench 205 5-6 reps
Overhead press 110 5-6reps
Deadlift 275 5-6 reps
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The guy is 20%bf at 5'10" 186. His lean mass is in the 140's. He has no muscle mass. How is bulking going to help. To be aesthetic which is what it seems like he wants. He will be better off cutting down to 10-12%bf and then doing mini bulks. It will take years to put on a solid say 20lbs of muscle if even possible for this guy. Sound to me like he doesn't have bodybuilder genetics but he can still look good and that is not by getting fatter.
what is a mini bulk?0
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