Why the SL haters?
sistrsprkl
Posts: 1,010 Member
The other day I met with the owner of my (weight lifting) gym and he seemed pretty against me continuing SL 5x5 bc I'm a newb to lifting (I did SL for 3 months then have taken a couple months off). He wants to put me on a 3 day program 2x a week incorporating free weights, body weight & machines to help my muscles and tendons prepare for heavy lifting. I'm torn, he has some good points but I really loved SL and was doing just fine w it. Advice? I'm meeting with him soon so he can at least critique my lifting form - which I need.
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you already know what the right move is0
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SL is fine. I don't know wtf he is talking about preparing joints. 5x5 uses compound movements. And as long as you have correct form through the lift you're fine. Good recovery time and perfect amount of volume and intensity. SL prepares your CNS for more advanced training0
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You get to pick what you believe you'll stick with. That's how you stay consistent.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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SL is so simple you don't need to pay a trainer for anything past form critique.0
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You sure he isn't trying to just get some 1 on 1 time with you? /actual question due to personal experience with stepbro's gym0
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Huh? My thought is that he is feeding you bs, so he can sell you supplements, etc. I used SL before I started 5/3/1. SL prepared me just fine to lift heavy.0
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It is a myth that you have to prepare your tendons and joints to lift heavy differently then you prepare your muscles. As you build up to heavier weight your joints and tendons will adapt, just like your muscles. That is the point. The other post are right, sounds scam-ish, and you should do what you believe is going to keep you coming back week after week.
One additional question, you said gym owner, not kinesiologist, personal trainer, competitive lifter, USAW coach or athlete, ad absurdum, so why is he qualified to critique your lifting form?0 -
boomshakalaka911 wrote: »SL is fine. I don't know wtf he is talking about preparing joints. 5x5 uses compound movements. And as long as you have correct form through the lift you're fine. Good recovery time and perfect amount of volume and intensity. SL prepares your CNS for more advanced training
Yup. And the program is designed to start with low weight so you can learn and improve your form before really getting heavy. And if you're concerned about your form, you can always record yourself and post videos for form feedback.0 -
Unfortunately most gym workers care more about there commission then you. I just started lifting. What is SL 5x5? sounds like something I wanna try!0
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That's ridiculous! SL 5x5 is a beginner lifting program.
You can run it for many, many cycles before needing to switch to an intermediate program.
Heck, I've been back lifting for the past 3 years and occasionally I'll run it just to increase squat volume.0 -
WrkinProg55 wrote: »Unfortunately most gym workers care more about there commission then you. I just started lifting. What is SL 5x5? sounds like something I wanna try!
http://stronglifts.com/5x5/
As with most workouts if you don't follow the program you are not following the program. I know that sounds ridiculous to say but people get program ADD and feel they have to change things, then shun a quality program because it "didn't work".0 -
The theory that your joints need to adapt is not a myth.. But doing 5x5's for an experienced and stronger person is different than a beginner.. A beginner is trying to get strong from nothing and an advanced lifter is using maximum effort to get to the next weight. If you are already doing great with it and your body adapted just fine then the guy feeding you that BS is trying to take you out for a nice steak dinner:) if he was concerned about your fitness level increasing then he would just feed off of what you already know how to do well and not try to get you to start over0
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What SL haters? I dont think they exist. Do YOU girl and get your lift on!!!!0
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The theory that your joints need to adapt is not a myth.. But doing 5x5's for an experienced and stronger person is different than a beginner.. A beginner is trying to get strong from nothing and an advanced lifter is using maximum effort to get to the next weight. If you are already doing great with it and your body adapted just fine then the guy feeding you that BS is trying to take you out for a nice steak dinner:) if he was concerned about your fitness level increasing then he would just feed off of what you already know how to do well and not try to get you to start over
The theory that your joints somehow adapt outside of the normal physiological adaptations that lifting heavy causes is a myth. In the absents of chemical enhancement the muscles are not going to develop so quickly they can pull off their attachments. Likewise if you are a beginner you don't have the strength to lift the weight necessary to cause that amount of stress is you lift with proper form and a solid recovery.
Science:
"Unfortunately, as noted by Faigen- baum and Polakowski (8), it has been incorrectly suggested that the weight- lifting movements are more dangerous to perform than more traditional types of training."
http://staff.argyle.esc11.net/cms/lib/TX21000387/Centricity/Domain/176/Weightlifting Movements Highlighted Info.pdf
Meaning you have as high a risk of injuring a joint doing calisthenics and body weight movement as with weightlifting.
Also, the point of 5x5, 5/3/1, TM, Westside, Blackiornbeast, and every other powerlifting based routine is maximum output, even for beginners. They don't start lifting low weights because they are trying to prepare their joints for what's next, they lift lower weight because that is what they are capable of lifting. The difference in experienced lifters in beginners is in the difficulty of achieving adaptation. That is why beginners don't need to worry about rest time, tempo, and changing rep schemes. That comes once adaptation has stopped. I honestly wish someone would have grabbed me my the short and curly and told me not to invest time in that until it was necessary.0 -
SL is a great workout for beginners to the compound workout/movement routine. I did it for a few months, and then progressed to more advanced (and heavier) exercises, so I think that guy's just trying to sell you personal training.
If you think about it, workouts like StrongLifts are a threat to the personal training industry, because it's all laid out for you and you can do it yourself.
So I wouldn't be surprised at all if trainers started hating on it, to scare people away from it and boost their own business. (Much like a nail technician would bash an at-home manicure kit..)0 -
TheopolisAmbroiseIII wrote: »SL is so simple you don't need to pay a trainer for anything past form critique.
Bingo0 -
I do a modified version of SL with more rest days, the addition of chin ups, and just deadlifts for the legs (I only do squats as a warm up with low weights, because I don't have a rack and can only safely use weights I'm capable of getting over my head).
It's a nice simple routine, my only problem with it is the guy who promotes it 'my way or the highway attitude' to anyone who suggests tweaking the approach/frequency.0 -
SL is great for a new lifter with little to no knowledge of how to program their own training. If you enjoy it and it's working for you then keep doing it. The important thing to remember is that if it supports your training goals and you're seeing progress towards those goals, then what you're doing is good.
If you're following the SL Program then the weight is already pretty light I would imagine, which should give you practice for the reps and allow your body to adapt to the movements. If you were jumping into a program that had you doing triples and doubles at 85%+ of your training max then I would say he'd be right, but that's not how SL works so you should be fine.
One thing to consider is that he may have a background in building programs and if he's good at it, then he may prefer to evaluate a client's movement and build a custom program around the results of that evaluation. The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
What you're doing is probably great for now, but SL does have a limited shelf-lift so at some point you'll likely need to change programs and if this guy is good at what he does then you may consider hearing him out. If he's a fool then just move on to something else when that time comes. LOL0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
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boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
I never said it did. I have my NASM PES, so I'm very familiar with the OPT model. But depending on the individual, based on the OPT model it may not be appropriate to start an athlete or client in a Maximal Strength or Maximal Power stage correct? Depending on the client, they may need to start out in Phase 1 Stabilization and Phase 1 isn't going to include Barbell Squats & Deadlifts. But it doesn't have to do with tendones / joints etc., not sure why your comment was necessary.
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SL isn't a maximal strength or power workout? Why not start with squats and DLs? It's a basic human movement and great for balance and stabilization provided you start with light resistance. Guess I'm just defending 5x5 lol. Meant no hate.0
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boomshakalaka911 wrote: »SL isn't a maximal strength or power workout? Why not start with squats and DLs? It's a basic human movement and great for balance and stabilization provided you start with light resistance. Guess I'm just defending 5x5 lol. Meant no hate.
It really just depends on the individual. Many people that are previously untrained have underdeveloped glutes and hamstrings; the glutes especially are key movers in the squat. Not to mention there are likely some basic mobility issues. Somebody in that situation trying to do a barbell squat, for example, will probably do the movement incorrectly. For example, somebody like that will likely experiencing weight shifting forward and experience knee pain in-time because they're quads are trying to compensate for the lack of gluteal activation during the concentric portion of the squat and EMG studies tell us that the glutes experience the greatest peak activation during the concentric portion of the squat. If that's where the gym owner's thought-process is coming from I can see his point as well.
I don't have a problem with SL5x5, it's a great program for people without good training knowledge to get involved in strength training without having to spend money on a trainer.0 -
SL is geared for beginners. Gym owner is trying to pull a fast one to get you to buy training time likely0
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Thanks for all the feedback guys, I do believe he's an experienced trainer & knows what he's talking about. I don't want to discount everything he says but will probably stick w SL for the time being. He did talk about muscle confusion that's not scientifically proven right?0
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Should be easy to confuse a clam, they don't really have brains.... And neither do your muscles. The frequency and intensity of the workouts are the only thing you really need to prevent adaptation to the an imposed stimuli, especially early on in a lifting "career".0
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sistrsprkl wrote: »Thanks for all the feedback guys, I do believe he's an experienced trainer & knows what he's talking about. I don't want to discount everything he says but will probably stick w SL for the time being. He did talk about muscle confusion that's not scientifically proven right?
Yeah, Muscle Confusion I think is a misunderstood thing. First, the SAID principle basically states that to get stronger at something you must keep doing it. armylife touches on that above. Now, I have listened to other very strong men that have said for isolation / accessory movements to vary them often. Matt Wenning has stated that when he does skull crushers to work on his triceps, he does them differently every workout by using different angles. Not scientific but he owns a 500+ bench press and consults for the Army so it's worth considering. Using Science to prove everything in training is tough as little has been 100% proven and in most cases we can only say that "most of the evidence points to x." Its important to maintain intelligent training through what the evidence suggests and by those that are experienced and strong themselves.0 -
Whatever you do I would always work with free weights, and don't go too heavy until you've nailed the form and are really comfortable with the moves - SL kind of does that if you start with an empty bar, and move your weights up in very small increments.
A couple of areas I think SL is lacking is that there is no vertical pulling move - I add chin-ups to it, you could do that or lat pull down in the gym. Also no incline bench press, which is great for upper chest.
SL is more of a strength workout than an aesthetics workout, which is why it has so much emphasis on squats.0 -
Should be easy to confuse a clam, they don't really have brains.... And neither do your muscles. The frequency and intensity of the workouts are the only thing you really need to prevent adaptation to the an imposed stimuli, especially early on in a lifting "career".
When I hear muscle confusion I think progressive overload. Progressive overload works. Basically showing that progressing isn't always linear.
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boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Should be easy to confuse a clam, they don't really have brains.... And neither do your muscles. The frequency and intensity of the workouts are the only thing you really need to prevent adaptation to the an imposed stimuli, especially early on in a lifting "career".
When I hear muscle confusion I think progressive overload. Progressive overload works. Basically showing that progressing isn't always linear.
That is kind of the issue. I agree that all you need is progressive overload to apply the correct stimuli to cause change. That being said, muscle confusion is billed as constantly changing the workout to "confuse muscle". Changing angles is not what they are talking about, neither is just adding weight. They are saying you must change the workouts. You can google muscle confusion and wade through the mountains of contradictory bull that are out there on it.
In the end it does not matter. If changing a workout every 4, 6, or 8 weeks is what keeps people going, do that. If doing the same thing every week for 52+ weeks is you think, do that. But make those decisions for yourself, don't let a gym owner, or anonymous person on the internet think for you.0
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