Why the SL haters?
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boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
I never said it did. I have my NASM PES, so I'm very familiar with the OPT model. But depending on the individual, based on the OPT model it may not be appropriate to start an athlete or client in a Maximal Strength or Maximal Power stage correct? Depending on the client, they may need to start out in Phase 1 Stabilization and Phase 1 isn't going to include Barbell Squats & Deadlifts. But it doesn't have to do with tendones / joints etc., not sure why your comment was necessary.
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SL isn't a maximal strength or power workout? Why not start with squats and DLs? It's a basic human movement and great for balance and stabilization provided you start with light resistance. Guess I'm just defending 5x5 lol. Meant no hate.0
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boomshakalaka911 wrote: »SL isn't a maximal strength or power workout? Why not start with squats and DLs? It's a basic human movement and great for balance and stabilization provided you start with light resistance. Guess I'm just defending 5x5 lol. Meant no hate.
It really just depends on the individual. Many people that are previously untrained have underdeveloped glutes and hamstrings; the glutes especially are key movers in the squat. Not to mention there are likely some basic mobility issues. Somebody in that situation trying to do a barbell squat, for example, will probably do the movement incorrectly. For example, somebody like that will likely experiencing weight shifting forward and experience knee pain in-time because they're quads are trying to compensate for the lack of gluteal activation during the concentric portion of the squat and EMG studies tell us that the glutes experience the greatest peak activation during the concentric portion of the squat. If that's where the gym owner's thought-process is coming from I can see his point as well.
I don't have a problem with SL5x5, it's a great program for people without good training knowledge to get involved in strength training without having to spend money on a trainer.0 -
SL is geared for beginners. Gym owner is trying to pull a fast one to get you to buy training time likely0
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Thanks for all the feedback guys, I do believe he's an experienced trainer & knows what he's talking about. I don't want to discount everything he says but will probably stick w SL for the time being. He did talk about muscle confusion that's not scientifically proven right?0
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Should be easy to confuse a clam, they don't really have brains.... And neither do your muscles. The frequency and intensity of the workouts are the only thing you really need to prevent adaptation to the an imposed stimuli, especially early on in a lifting "career".0
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sistrsprkl wrote: »Thanks for all the feedback guys, I do believe he's an experienced trainer & knows what he's talking about. I don't want to discount everything he says but will probably stick w SL for the time being. He did talk about muscle confusion that's not scientifically proven right?
Yeah, Muscle Confusion I think is a misunderstood thing. First, the SAID principle basically states that to get stronger at something you must keep doing it. armylife touches on that above. Now, I have listened to other very strong men that have said for isolation / accessory movements to vary them often. Matt Wenning has stated that when he does skull crushers to work on his triceps, he does them differently every workout by using different angles. Not scientific but he owns a 500+ bench press and consults for the Army so it's worth considering. Using Science to prove everything in training is tough as little has been 100% proven and in most cases we can only say that "most of the evidence points to x." Its important to maintain intelligent training through what the evidence suggests and by those that are experienced and strong themselves.0 -
Whatever you do I would always work with free weights, and don't go too heavy until you've nailed the form and are really comfortable with the moves - SL kind of does that if you start with an empty bar, and move your weights up in very small increments.
A couple of areas I think SL is lacking is that there is no vertical pulling move - I add chin-ups to it, you could do that or lat pull down in the gym. Also no incline bench press, which is great for upper chest.
SL is more of a strength workout than an aesthetics workout, which is why it has so much emphasis on squats.0 -
Should be easy to confuse a clam, they don't really have brains.... And neither do your muscles. The frequency and intensity of the workouts are the only thing you really need to prevent adaptation to the an imposed stimuli, especially early on in a lifting "career".
When I hear muscle confusion I think progressive overload. Progressive overload works. Basically showing that progressing isn't always linear.
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boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Should be easy to confuse a clam, they don't really have brains.... And neither do your muscles. The frequency and intensity of the workouts are the only thing you really need to prevent adaptation to the an imposed stimuli, especially early on in a lifting "career".
When I hear muscle confusion I think progressive overload. Progressive overload works. Basically showing that progressing isn't always linear.
That is kind of the issue. I agree that all you need is progressive overload to apply the correct stimuli to cause change. That being said, muscle confusion is billed as constantly changing the workout to "confuse muscle". Changing angles is not what they are talking about, neither is just adding weight. They are saying you must change the workouts. You can google muscle confusion and wade through the mountains of contradictory bull that are out there on it.
In the end it does not matter. If changing a workout every 4, 6, or 8 weeks is what keeps people going, do that. If doing the same thing every week for 52+ weeks is you think, do that. But make those decisions for yourself, don't let a gym owner, or anonymous person on the internet think for you.0 -
boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.0 -
boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
no, because it's just not something that's required for the low volume, low impact, low velocity, low weight lifting, low technical difficulty lifts that comprise the SL program. spending a bunch of time prepping your joints for pushing your arms away from you body or standing up just isn't a real thing.0 -
boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
Lol What? Most people can handle the SL program with a little guidance on form is what I'm saying........ ........?...???0 -
boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
no, because it's just not something that's required for the low volume, low impact, low velocity, low weight lifting, low technical difficulty lifts that comprise the SL program. spending a bunch of time prepping your joints for pushing your arms away from you body or standing up just isn't a real thing.boomshakalaka911 wrote: »boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
Lol What? Most people can handle the SL program with a little guidance on form is what I'm saying........ ........?...???
I bet most of them probably would be fine. All I'm saying is that there are more and more sedentary people who don't have an athletic background and want to become more active these days (and lift etc). It's not a marginal population. Using young athletes as the universal reference point might not work in all instances.0 -
boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
no, because it's just not something that's required for the low volume, low impact, low velocity, low weight lifting, low technical difficulty lifts that comprise the SL program. spending a bunch of time prepping your joints for pushing your arms away from you body or standing up just isn't a real thing.boomshakalaka911 wrote: »boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
Lol What? Most people can handle the SL program with a little guidance on form is what I'm saying........ ........?...???
I bet most of them probably would be fine. All I'm saying is that there are more and more sedentary people who don't have an athletic background and want to become more active these days (and lift etc). It's not a marginal population. Using young athletes as the universal reference point might not work in all instances.
That is a straw man argument, you introduced the idea of young athletes as the population they were referring too. You can not agree, but don't change the argument then not agree with it.0 -
boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
no, because it's just not something that's required for the low volume, low impact, low velocity, low weight lifting, low technical difficulty lifts that comprise the SL program. spending a bunch of time prepping your joints for pushing your arms away from you body or standing up just isn't a real thing.boomshakalaka911 wrote: »boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
Lol What? Most people can handle the SL program with a little guidance on form is what I'm saying........ ........?...???
I bet most of them probably would be fine. All I'm saying is that there are more and more sedentary people who don't have an athletic background and want to become more active these days (and lift etc). It's not a marginal population. Using young athletes as the universal reference point might not work in all instances.
That is a straw man argument, you introduced the idea of young athletes as the population they were referring too. You can not agree, but don't change the argument then not agree with it.
? I'm not changing any argument. I made a minor observation about a part of one person's comment, which I'll quote again - "Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives." which is actually a lot of people, and it seems worth thinking about whether people like that might in fact need stabilization and balance. I mentioned it because a lot of trainers (esp young male trainers) seem to be under the impression that all clients need to train just like they do, and that's not necessarily the case.0 -
This thread took a bit of a turn. I appreciate those that confirm that SL is fine for me to continue with. I'm in pretty good shape and have good balance and mobility (& no injuries) so I'm confident that SL is the right program for me at this time.0
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boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
no, because it's just not something that's required for the low volume, low impact, low velocity, low weight lifting, low technical difficulty lifts that comprise the SL program. spending a bunch of time prepping your joints for pushing your arms away from you body or standing up just isn't a real thing.boomshakalaka911 wrote: »boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
Lol What? Most people can handle the SL program with a little guidance on form is what I'm saying........ ........?...???
I bet most of them probably would be fine. All I'm saying is that there are more and more sedentary people who don't have an athletic background and want to become more active these days (and lift etc). It's not a marginal population. Using young athletes as the universal reference point might not work in all instances.
I don't think I'm using young athletes as a reference point? I'm saying that when it comes to the overwhelming majority of the population, weeks or months of special preparation are not needed before attempting to get under the bar0 -
boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
no, because it's just not something that's required for the low volume, low impact, low velocity, low weight lifting, low technical difficulty lifts that comprise the SL program. spending a bunch of time prepping your joints for pushing your arms away from you body or standing up just isn't a real thing.boomshakalaka911 wrote: »boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
Lol What? Most people can handle the SL program with a little guidance on form is what I'm saying........ ........?...???
I bet most of them probably would be fine. All I'm saying is that there are more and more sedentary people who don't have an athletic background and want to become more active these days (and lift etc). It's not a marginal population. Using young athletes as the universal reference point might not work in all instances.
I don't think I'm using young athletes as a reference point? I'm saying that when it comes to the overwhelming majority of the population, weeks or months of special preparation are not needed before attempting to get under the bar
Ugh, it's not always *about* you, DavPul, I made the little point I wanted to make to the person I thought should hear it and let's just be done with it.0 -
boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
no, because it's just not something that's required for the low volume, low impact, low velocity, low weight lifting, low technical difficulty lifts that comprise the SL program. spending a bunch of time prepping your joints for pushing your arms away from you body or standing up just isn't a real thing.boomshakalaka911 wrote: »boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The NASM and NSCA have a training system that is customized to the individual based on their previous training experience, goals / needs, and current fitness ability; that could be where he's coming from as well.
Nasm doesn't say anything about prepping joints and tendons in the OPT model. Because prepping your joints and tendons is bro science. Stabilization and balance is what it recommends. That's only for those that have no athletic background and pretty much lived sedentary lives.
Because everyone in the world who wants to lift is an athletic 20 year old, right.
Lol What? Most people can handle the SL program with a little guidance on form is what I'm saying........ ........?...???
I bet most of them probably would be fine. All I'm saying is that there are more and more sedentary people who don't have an athletic background and want to become more active these days (and lift etc). It's not a marginal population. Using young athletes as the universal reference point might not work in all instances.
Are you associating NASM's training methods and young athletes? If so, that would be a poor correlation. Yes, the OPT model can be used to train athletes, but it is also easily adaptable to individuals that are de-conditioned / previously sedentary, returning from injury and released from PT, even the elderly. Performance training is just one aspect of NASM's method.0
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