The fundamentals of successful longterm weightloss for everyone.

ninerbuff

SideSteel wrote: »

The weight loss registry allows you to key in to common characteristics of people who were successful at maintaining weight loss. If exercise is a common characteristic then you might be able to conclude that it is helpful in that regard.

I actually agree with a good chunk of your post. Totally disagree with your stance on exercise. Yes a calorie deficit is going to primarily drive changes in weight but activity is a part of that equation.

You also have to consider that the common rebuttals against exercise conclude (falsely, ie Taubes) that exercise increases appetite and causes people to eat more and additionally uses the "free living conditions" argument. Since we are dealing with a population of people (here on MFP) who track caloric intake, exercise can indeed become a method of enhancing the calorie deficit. Exercise and it's effect on appetite is likely variable from person to person and probably depends on exercise modality too. I can tell you from a coaching perspective that I regularly and successfully use exercise volume as a variable to increase energy demands which allows people to eat more food (compared to cutting calories further to create the deficit) which allows improved diet adherence. And whether or not you lean on additional exercise to further create the deficit is going to come down to individual factors.


See below for starters.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19175510
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848645/

Good to see you brother. And I concur.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Machka9

Patttience wrote: »

But for argument's sake, the main factor i know of that would be different is the exercise becuase we know a lot of people who have kept the weight off long term with exericse. I am pretty sure these people as soon as they stop exercising will regain - it tends to be what happens to athletes. They do not know how to keep the weight off without exercise so they are forced to do significant amounts of exercise daily and live in fear of taking some relaxation off from exericse. I have heard them talk about this quite a lot in articles and so on, and know people who live like that. While i have stopped and started exercise and can keep control of my weight whether i exercise or not. At my current weight it is good to do some exercise becuase if i don't I can't eat very much becuase my lifestyle isn't very active. But i mainly do it becuase i want to be fit and healthy. I did not do it through my losing weight period. And since reaching goal, i have stopped and started numerous times. Let's face its not easy to do more than an hour of exercise almost every day for months and years on end.

Weight loss all comes down to CICO (calories in ... calories out) ... and awareness.

If you are exercising lots (lots of calories out) ... you can, and probably need to, consume more (calories in), but still less than what you're burning.
If you are exercising a little bit (minimal or moderate calories out) ... you will need to reduce the amount you consume accordingly (fewer calories in).
If you do not exercise at all (your calories out are just what's needed to get you through the day) ... you will need to really watch how much you consume to keep the calories in lower than calories out.

Maintenance is also CICO, but then CI = CO.

And each of us needs to figure out that balance. We need to figure out how much exercise, if any, works for us. We also need to figure out what works for us in terms of food. For example, yes, vegetables are a good idea. They taste great. They are filling. They are low cal. Win-win-win.

I highly recommend that if people feel uncertain about nutrition or fitness that they take nutrition or fitness classes. These are often offered through community courses, or at your local college or university. Or at least do some reading, and reading a variety of books on the subject.

I also recognise that there are other issues which some people need to deal with ... but I'll just point out that not everyone experiencing stress gains weight.

Patttience wrote: »

My sister is one person I know who seems suited to lots of exercise but she has never been overweight a day in her life. The people who seem most suited to lots of exercise in the long-term are people like my sister who've never been overweight.

Patttience wrote: »

I suspect that the people who object most loudly to what i'm saying are the people who are not doing what i'm recommending. ie the ones who exercise a lot who have never been terribly overweight for long periods, who don't have years of failed attempts behind them and so on. So although you might benefit from trying to take on board what i'm saying, you think you are doing pretty well as you are. Good carry on doing what you are but i believe you would find it easier and would have more success if you did what i suggest instead.

Perhaps there's a connection there ... perhaps those of us who have been active all our lives have a greater chance of never being overweight. Perhaps the activity/exercise is the key after all.

And personally, I thoroughly enjoy exercise. For me, it's tough to limit my exercise to just one hour. Unfortunately that's about all I get during the week these days. If I could, I'd be out active for hours every day.

Patttience wrote: »

I would also like to point out that since I posted this thread, and been writing similar things in posts on this forum ...

Are you including the thread you started in the Fitness forum where you seemed to indicate that exercise might somehow be detrimental to us all?

Mr_Knight

The single most important element of successful long term weight management is regular, vigorous exercise.

oh_happy_day

I just read your other thread on exercise. You seem to be in the mindset that you've cracked the code and that anyone who doesn't totally agree with you is wrong/not comprehending/unintelligent.

Any helpful suggestions you do have are being buried by the way that you respond to people. And all of your posts reek of confirmation bias. You know, the tendency to search for, interpret, favour and recall information in a way that confirms one's beliefs or hypotheses while giving disproportionately less attention to information that contradicts it...

Patttience

I think your heart is in the right place but your delivery could use some work and your responses to people lack insight.


You also seem to confuse beliefs with facts, and seem to assume that other people's experiences should align with your own.

This might be how it looks to you but its not how it is. I while I do believe things I am not stating anything as a fact I think. With regards to anything to do with weightloss very very few facts have been established. As one article i read last year made very clear, nutrition science is one of the most difficult to establish facts about. And the article was about why people are so confused about it. Alas i don't have access to the link but i read the article when i was a regular on 3fchicks.

You repeatedly say things like you just "don't believe" that other possibilities occur. Belief isn't evidence.

-Of course you are right. That's why i have not said i am giving evidence. IN fact when i said i believe i think i went on to say that there probably isn't evidence for it. But a lack of evidence is only becuase the studies haven't been done not that the studies have been done but disprove my claims. But what we might take instead is that the overwhelming majority of diet experts over the course of forever have recommended vegetables. That was the key thing i think i was saying about belief but there might have been others. Oh yes i said i can't believe that people coldn't be successful with the other possibilities adn then i think i went on and said why i believed that. Did that explanation not seem acceptable to you?

Its tedious to go back over everything i and everyone else has written to dissolve the nitpicking. I have not put forth anything thing as evidence except provided some names and sources that i have used and valued in the above but i would also point that this is not the total extent of what i have drawn on I have read quite widely on nutrition and diet over the years but particlarly last year. But if people are going to argue against my point of view as put in my OP, it would be great if they could actually say which points i make are wrong and why. And very people seem to be keen to take this approach.

You are extrapolating what worked for you as fundamentals that will work for everyone and make everyone's weight loss easier and more successful. You literally said that.

-I said these fundamentals would make it easier for everyone. I really believe that. I really believe that people would be more successful if they tried to incorporate theses types of ideas into their strategy. I know that not all of these ideas would be easier for people. for instnace i know that some people really really do not like vegetables. But as was the case with me, i think there are lot of people who don't eat them not becuase they do'nt like them but because its hard to want to eat them when you are eating lots of junk. This is what i found. When i'm eating a load of junk food day in day out that is highly flvaoured vegetables are rather bland in comparison. Even fruit is not so enticing. But once you stop eating all that crap, fruit and vegies start to taste quite palatable for the vast majority. i know there are some genuinely picky eaters out there. But i still think that when these people can retrian themselves to learn to like vegetables at least some of them and eat more of them, they will find losing weight easier. REason being vegetables help regulate your appetite. Adn junk helps you disregulate in a big way when that's all you eat. Now if its not clear that this would make dieting easier then i don't know what else i can say. I am trying to be clear as i can.


You also said that people who don't agree with you don't comprehend you.

-No I think i said that the person up the top who replied didn't understand my post. I did not extrapolate to say this included all people. But if people who disagree with me make points that show they don't understand what i've written then clearly its not because they disagree but because they don't understand. That was the point i made.

That the people who object to what you're saying as the ones not doing what you're recommending. Can you see that that comes across as rather arrogant?

_No because that's not what's going on.

Now its frustrating to me that you and others choose to discuss my attitude and my debates rather than actually engaging with the content of this thread.

Patttience

CAITWIN,

Being such a long post which i've only partially edited, this has got a bit messy. That will probably cause more problems but i'm worn out now.

Finally someone willing to engage with the content of my original post in a serious way. Thank for that at least.

So let me try to engage with your points.

You said: "The main thing I wanted to share is that the OP mentions she's never seen a book discuss the "deep and unexplored" emotional and mental preparation that may be needed before actually beginning a weight loss effort. There's actually quite a rich literature on the emotional and mental aspects of not only unhealthy eating patterns, but also the emotional impact of trying to lose weight, and the experience of being hindered by thoughts and emotions that need to be addressed if success is to be achieved.

Me: I am aware that there is a lot of literature on the psychology and emotional aspects of weightloss. Ihave read a few. And i've read a great deal about most matters of psychology since about 1997. I've done CBT myself, mindfulness i understnad what DBT is. I know what the DSM is all about. I had psychodynamica therapy for three years. I've worked in an eating disorders clinic. And so on and so forth. Most psychology books on the subject do not talk about the effects on hormones or biochemistry. Not that i've been able to find anyway.

I don't think i said anything anywhere about delaying weightloss. I just know that many people cannot "just start" when they want. They try and fail. I can't and i know many others can't either. It's not about delaying. Its about not being able. The reasons that make one not able is the thing that's never discussed. The difficulty is partly not a matter of conscious thought. Its about appetite and physiology. There seems to be stuff going on in our bodies below consciousness that makes it hard to just start and keep going as soon as you think its a good idea.

+++You mention Dr. Salis. Her work has not gotten much attention here in the U.S. but neither was it really earth-shattering (I say "was" because it's been some years since she was publicizing her book or doing youtube interviews). I'm not a huge fan of either set-point theory, which she espouses, or her "famine reaction" concept, but I'd be open to reading more about it - it's just that most of her online stuff, and her book, is centered on personal stories and anecdotal evidence. I always enjoy reading that sort of thing, but it doesn't satisfy my deeper need to see what has actually shaped her theories.

There is a lot of personal anecdote in her book but the guts of the famine reaction stuff is not personal anecdote and its scientific jargon either. Its a very good explanation of how it works. I think the reason for that is to make it appealing to a lay audience. She didn't write it to appeal to scientists. A lot of the best books i've read about diet tend to fail to reach wide audience because they are rather dense and intelligent and this type of book is not appealing to people who like light reading or have trouble reading anything at all. One example of that is The End of Overeating written by the former head of the WHO - who like me is not a diet scientist or professional but he has the credibility of being a public figure. And unlike a lot of doctors who are out there to dazzle people with quasi science to make money, she doesn't need to. Her writing comes across as completely honest to me. I believe she is the real deal type of scientist and should be given more credit by dieters like you and me. She understand the science so well, so thoroughly and and obviously believes in her discoveries and theories hence she can explain very well in words that do not rely on a lot of jargon and so on. And she is talking about her own work. Its not second hand stuff by and large that she is writing about. Even if you think you don't agree iwth her i would strongly recommend her books. Her second book has a wonderful expose of the hunger and satiety rating systems which is used by other intuitive eating experts. I don't go for intuitive eating myself but this system is a very practical and useful tool for everyone. I think everyone should learn how to use it. I would contrast her writing style with that of the authors of The Science of Low Carb. (I am not saying they are charletans but they are clearly writing for doctors and readers educated enough to be able to understand the technical stuff so lay readers could easily be dazzled by the tech stuff while to me who is also a lay reader it also seemed to have a few gaps or credibility in it. While for me i could understand enough but it also left with my plenty of doubts as there seemed to be a fair bit glossing over things in their book).

Dr Salis is a sciencist who was writing for laypeople about research that she had done personally in a difficult field. You may not be excited by her ideas but if you had read her books you might not find it so be easy to write her off. I found her explanation very convincing. What you may read on the internet is most likely a summarised version and therefore may not be as convincing. But her book includes discussion of other wonderful ideas that were new to me. For instance a guy in melbourne who'd done a study on the variety of foods we should. So i gained three very useful ideas from her two books. That said, when she talked about some more old fashioned ideas, i let those wash over becuase i have found them to be less than useful, eg low fat, exercise. But those ideas were the dominant ideas at the time.

Anyway Dr Salis is still a credible professional in her field because she still works for Australian Universities as a researcher, is an educator for medical doctors who these days have to do a lot more work with diet than their own studies prepared them for and I think still runs her own research projects.

Whether or not you buy her research is another question but her credentials can't be in question. Her work was ground breaking at hte time and has obviously led to many flow on studies.

I did acknowledge in my post above that the set-point theory is contentious so i guess that could be understood as making the notion not quite a fundamental - but basically i've said this one was a bit iffy. I know of no contention over any of the others. However, i must say i have found the idea very helpful. HOw i have found it helpful is this: It means i don't expect to be able to lose one pound of body weight month after month after month endlessly without negative consequences. I understand that and have found it to be helpful that pauses from time to time in a diet are good becuase they reset the metabolism to a faster speed. This won't be clear to anyone who is not already familiar with the subject of set-point and metabolism but i expect you may know what i'm talking about. So my hope was that others would be interested enough to find out more about it by reading what Dr Salis has to say about it in her book. So i stress again that i have found this to be an incredibly useful understanding of the way weight loss works over time in terms of metabolism. NOt many authors seem to discuss metabolism in a credible way with regards to weightloss but it is an issue becuase from time to time people come on here and post about being cold now that they are thin and how hot they used to be when fat. I know from my experience as a hypothyroid person that this is about metabolism. I do not htink many dieters on this site at all understand anything much about metabolsim or bother looking into it.

Of course we see the occasion reference to some money grabbing quack about metabolism busting diets. Yeah Right!

With regards to the register. Does it do any reserach about why people fail at weightloss. That's my point there. We don't know if what people say makes them successful if we do not know if these factors are also part of the programs of people who also fail. And of course that is anecdotal evidence too isn't it - the stuff on the weightloss register. But nevermind, i am not against anecdote but if you leave out the flip side i just wonder really if its the full story. I don't think so.


Finally, I will say that your statements like this: "I suspect that the people who object most loudly to what i'm saying are the people who are not doing what i'm recommending. ie the ones who exercise a lot who have never been terribly overweight for long periods, who don't have years of failed attempts behind them and so on." bother me quite a bit. I may be wrong, but this seems to indicate that your mind is already made up, and that your way is "The Way" for anyone who has had long-term struggles with weight loss. I don't feel that is a realistic or useful stance, but like I said, maybe I have the context wrong.

What i say here is a reflection on what i see that happens on the forum. If you are new to this forum, you may not see that there is a fairly large bunch of people who have a set motto or some such thing on a few particular topics which they spout in a completely unhelpful way over and over again on the forum. Its about those people who I am thinking when i wrote those words and i think that the person at top seems to be in that mould. I cannot tell you how many times i have seen posters write someting like "what it all boils down to CICO" And do you know what? That is not particularly helpful to most people. Slogans require fleshing out. And CICO is just referred to on this forum as a slogan so often. That is what my first point is aimed at.

And as i just said, people who find what i say useful tend to request friendship adn do not start fighting me on the forum. I would like it if they would ask for more info but they don't do that either terribly often. There is certainly more to know. And i can give people short cuts to understanding if they want to ask me. I mean i can explain things further or suggest books or links or videos or answer questions or show them how to apply it in practice.

Therealobi1

OP honestly i think you need to re read some of the things you are posting and then what others have posted. when you are relaxed you will see you are the only one attacking. Stef's post wasn't attacking at all it was just her opinion.

Patttience

SideSteel wrote: »

The weight loss registry allows you to key in to common characteristics of people who were successful at maintaining weight loss. If exercise is a common characteristic then you might be able to conclude that it is helpful in that regard.

I actually agree with a good chunk of your post. Totally disagree with your stance on exercise. Yes a calorie deficit is going to primarily drive changes in weight but activity is a part of that equation.

You also have to consider that the common rebuttals against exercise conclude (falsely, ie Taubes) that exercise increases appetite and causes people to eat more and additionally uses the "free living conditions" argument. Since we are dealing with a population of people (here on MFP) who track caloric intake, exercise can indeed become a method of enhancing the calorie deficit. Exercise and it's effect on appetite is likely variable from person to person and probably depends on exercise modality too. I can tell you from a coaching perspective that I regularly and successfully use exercise volume as a variable to increase energy demands which allows people to eat more food (compared to cutting calories further to create the deficit) which allows improved diet adherence. And whether or not you lean on additional exercise to further create the deficit is going to come down to individual factors.


See below for starters.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19175510
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848645/

Sorry not to reply to this earlier. I missed it.

Anyway here goes.

As pointed out elsewhere, my logic is while many on the registry may say that exercise helps them lose weight and miantain it long term, this does not take into account all the people who were exercising their backsides off and quit or ultimately failed. I suspect the number of people who have tried losing weight by relying on exercise but failed is greater than the number of successes. I suggest that for whatever reason people have quit the exercise and with that have quit the whole project. Not being able to sustain the exericse is the reason for their failure and the reason i bleieve its better not to rely on it for weightloss and to not include into your plan until you have learnt how to lose weight without it.

As i do'nt know Taubes argument, i can't really consider it. I don't enough about it from the little you've said. Certainly i have noticed that when i do alot of exercise i do need to eat more. And when i stop doing the exercise in continue to eat more for sometime. My body demands it. Its clear to me that part of the reason for this is becuase the metabolism is faster now because there's more muscle. But this stuff is what freaks people out and its not really easy or straightforward to adjust to eating less when you stop exercising.

But for expert opinion on the question of exercise, i have direct your attention to the following. I cannot remember or repeate or even do much justice to their arguments since there are quite a few but they were reasonably convincing to me, although the main reason i now realise that exercise is a problem is from my own personal experience.

Anyway refer to: Youtube BBC tv series The Men Who Made us Thin which follows The Men Who Made us Fat.
Second DR Michael Mosley Exercise also on You Tube
A diet book by Dr George Blair West.

Look at all these and then argue the case with me if still feel they are wrong.

Also you might tell in which book Taubes is talking about exercise because i haven't seen it but i can say that his views were not part of my reasoning since i was unaware of them.

In my experience doing exercise to eat more only seems necessary when you are quite slim already because by that stage the daily calories are quite low. But until that stage you can eat quite a bit and easily lose weight with a fairly modest calorie deficit.

This I understand (because i don't have first hand experience with it) is more difficult with people who have diabetes or even pre-diabetes because weightloss seems to be slower.

But my main point, what is the point of exercise if the necessity for doing becomes the reason you fail the whole thing because you can't keep it up. For people who are able to keep up with through thick and thin, clearly its worked for them but I contend these people are a tiny minority. I'm not talking about the average person here. I'm talking about people who have weight problems and are trying to lose it. For these people the massive majority are unable to keep up the exercise interminably. I even recall one woman on another forum who did running for two years. She lost a ton of weight and had the surgery scars to show for it after skin removal. Then one day she disappeared off the forum. But i found her blog and on it, she talked about having injured her food with tendonitis and was unable to run. She was frantic because she could not stop eating. She was unable to immediately adjust her calorie intake to her new circumstances. I wasn't around for long enough to know where this story ended but with the injury she had, I could see she wouldn't be running again any time soon.

Most people do not get as far as she did but one time her injury was pretty much my story. I had been doing triathlon. I had lost all my weight and i used to go running every day. and or cycling and swimming. I usually did more htan an hour of exercise every day. I loved it. And then i pulled a ligament and had to stop running. I also got a job. The combination of these two factors caused me to have to quit with all my exercise and so before too long i was fat again. It was years before i was able to have anohter bash but it was even longer, much longer before i realised that exercise was the problem.

psuLemon

Tagging to read later

Aani15

2. Exercise is not the answer to successful long term weight. You do not need to exercise to lose weight and relying on it can be the reason why you fail. Exercise for health and fitness, not for weightloss. The studies generally show that people tend to replace all the calories burnt through exercise. To out-exercise your consumption you have to do a lot (more than an hour a day most days of the week) and that's not sustainable for the vast majority even in the short term let alone the long-term. This one I have fallen victim to more times than i can count. Exercise moderately for your health and do it when you feel like it. And if you have a great deal to lose, you are better off focusing almost all your effort on diet until you are inside your healthy weight range. Maybe I should write a blog on this because there are a lot of angles to cover.

This is an over generalisation. Exercise does not just boost one's health but it has so many other positive impacts on mental health and social wellbeing. One size does not fit all. Some people are unable to work out because of genuine reasons but visit any rehabilitation facility and you will see people in their 80's and 90's doing exercises especially designed for them by their physiotherapists. If someone is physically disadvantaged, it is unrealistic for them to do activities which a normal person can.
Can you please list even one well conducted study to back up your claim?

4. Fruit and vegetables! Especially vegetables! Become a fan. Fruit and veg are low calorie, they fill you up and release their energy slowly and give you the nutrition you need to make long term weight loss easier. Along with protein, these are the foods that help you avoid hunger the best. Develop your skills in the kitchen with these foods so that you can stop hating them. Actually an extension of this fundamental is to eat a wide variety of food all the time. I read about a study where it was determined that one should be trying to eat about 30 different foods each week in order to reach optimum nutrition. If you refuse to become a vegetable lover, I cannot see how it is at all possible for you to lose weight and maintain it for the long term.

Fruits have a lot of sugar in them but they are much better choices over candies or other sweet confectionaries because of their nutritional value. I have yet to come across a fruit with 'HIGH or even substantial amount of PROTEIN' in it.




Otherwise you have well presented your ideas.

Machka9

Patttience wrote: »

But my main point, what is the point of exercise if the necessity for doing becomes the reason you fail the whole thing because you can't keep it up. For people who are able to keep up with through thick and thin, clearly its worked for them but I contend these people are a tiny minority. I'm not talking about the average person here. I'm talking about people who have weight problems and are trying to lose it. For these people the massive majority are unable to keep up the exercise interminably. I even recall one woman on another forum who did running for two years. She lost a ton of weight and had the surgery scars to show for it after skin removal. Then one day she disappeared off the forum. But i found her blog and on it, she talked about having injured her food with tendonitis and was unable to run. She was frantic because she could not stop eating. She was unable to immediately adjust her calorie intake to her new circumstances. I wasn't around for long enough to know where this story ended but with the injury she had, I could see she wouldn't be running again any time soon.

Most people do not get as far as she did but one time her injury was pretty much my story. I had been doing triathlon. I had lost all my weight and i used to go running every day. and or cycling and swimming. I usually did more htan an hour of exercise every day. I loved it. And then i pulled a ligament and had to stop running. I also got a job. The combination of these two factors caused me to have to quit with all my exercise and so before too long i was fat again. It was years before i was able to have anohter bash but it was even longer, much longer before i realised that exercise was the problem.

I was in the same situation ... I had one of my best years of cycling and finished the season slim and trim. Then I had an accident and burnt my left foot to the bone. Could not leave the house for 5 weeks. Could hardly move at all for those 5 weeks. Just standing caused the blood to pool painfully in that foot because the artery/vein system was damaged at the foot end of things.

Just about every other year, I put on about 20 lbs in winter (but remained within my normal BMI range) because I exercised less in winter, and then I lost it with the extra exercise come spring. So gaining 20 lbs in winter was OK with me. I didn't mind starting the season with a little bit of extra weight. But that year, I realised that it wasn't a matter of exercising less ... it was a matter of not exercising at all. Sedentary barely described my activity level. So I made a point of eating less. I did gain some weight, but only about 15 lbs that winter instead of my usual 20.

I was bound and determined not to let that injury stop me. As soon as I could be upright without much pooling blood, I put my bandaged injured foot into a slipper and rode my stationary bike. In the beginning, I could only do about 5 minutes, but I slowly built up. And then, when the foot had healed to the point where my homecare nurse thought I could try a real shoe ... 3 months later ... the first shoe I tried was my cycling shoe. I actually shed tears of delight. I went on to have an even better year of cycling that next season, and dropped to the lowest weight I had been since I was about 18.

(Oh, and I had a full-time job + was taking night classes).

The point being that we've all got a choice when it comes to dealing with situations like that. Weight loss or weight maintenance is all about keeping a balance. If the amount of exercise decreases, like it no doubt will at some points, then we can choose to eat less. If the amount of exercise increases, like it does when we're ramping up toward an event, then we can choose to eat more. Just because something comes along to disrupt the exercise does not necessarily mean that all is lost.

In my experience, for me, this kind of awareness helps a lot with maintenance.

Sabine_Stroehm

SideSteel wrote: »

Annie_01 wrote: »

Patttience wrote: »

These are the fundamentals that affect EVERYONE's ability to succeed in the long term with weightloss.

I read your initial post with interest until...

The above statement...the word "EVERYONE" gave me second thoughts about your entire post.

While there might be some...maybe even many...that will benefit from your fundamentals I believe that to make the claim that "EVERYONE's" ability to succeed in the long term is inaccurate.

I am always skeptical when an author uses the term "EVERYONE".

Agreed

Yep. +1

Sabine_Stroehm

Patttience wrote: »

Well i am sorry that my attempt to address the critic at the top of the thread put people off.

It would be a shame if people decided to not take on board what i wrote in my first post because of how they didn't like the way i responded to one poster. I jsut reread my first response and couldn't even find anything that you could object to but she wrote back and again becuase her post persists in failing to show comprehension of my initial post, i got frustrated.

So human failing again. We don't have to like people to accept that they are right or make good points. I'm not asking you to like me.

I have proposed a bunch of things that are not commonly known, either in solo or as a package and which will make long term weightloss successful and much easier. If people aren't interested in ideas that will give them more success or to help them make it easier, that's sad for them.

Incorrect. You wrote a nice post. You told us what worked for YOU. Some of those things worked for me. Some of my own approach was QUITE different from what you posted.
I lost weight. I've been maintaining for FOURTEEN YEARS. What you posted as a whole is not "what works", it's what you did and succeeded with.
examples: you say we ALL can eat up to 40% of our calories from fat. Many of our posters are losing very well on 70% fat. You say eat fruits and vegetables. Many of our posters are losing very well (and are quite healthy) with no fruit.
You say exercise isn't the key. I believe and know that exercise, being active is a HUGE part of why I've been successful for FOURTEEN YEARS.

I lost weight, successfully, the first time I tried.
My list of "what worked" would look very different from yours. I know that, and so I don't post it as what's "best" for everyone.
What you posted is not "best for everyone" and what worked for me is not "best for everyone".

That's all most folks have objected to: your insistence that you have THE ONE ANSWER.

cheers and congrats on your loss and early maintenance success.

acorsaut89

Patttience wrote: »

Stef, if it were this simple in practice, there would be much more long term success than there is in reality.

The truth is that most people who attempt weightloss fail in both the short and long term.

Again, CICO is accurate but its only useful in theory. In practice, in reality, people need more insight, advice and guidance. People don't even realise they don't know what CICO implies. Hence they go wrong.

Let me spell it out for you by giving you a common scenario.

Many people who are overweight also have a bit of depression. They are also not in peak nutritional condition. Both of these things conspire to make controlling their appetite difficult. So telling someone just eat less will not work. They won't be able to do it. Proof is in the knowledge that most people cannot willy nilly just start losing weight anytime the thought pops into their mind. People need to be readied. And what that means is a deep and unexplored territory. I've never ever seen a book discuss this.

that said, having been through it and over it numerous times and with all my research into hormones and understanding of how depression affects me, i have a pretty good clue as to what is going on there. This is why i make keeping myself happy one of my top priorities.

Now if you are going to persist in disagreeing with me, at least have the good grace to understand what my post is about. Perhaps read it through a couple of times - with an open mind.

I would say that CICO is very useful in theory and in reality, and I do agree that many who are considered obese or morbidly obese will relapse into old habits . . . I think I read once that long term success of those who are obese or morbidly obese is less than 10% or something.

Anyways, I would also argue that there is much less success in reality not because it's not as simple as CICO but because it is as simple as CICO. Here's why: in order to lose weight you really have to consume less than you burn because if your body runs out of let's say "fresh" fuel then it's going to turn to what it has stored to keep running. However, many people (and myself included for a long time) don't really understand what they're eating. They have no idea what is really in that burger, or pasta or what have you. They don't know. And I'm not saying that makes it ok - I'm just saying from a lack of education, understanding and perhaps will power there is a lot less success than there could be.

A lot of people really don't have the discipline and will power to make those long term changes that are needed. They can make them for a little while but they can't find enough variety or their brain is still craving the salt, sugar, fat they used to eat. It's almost like a drug for your brain. If people had the will power I would think there would be a lot more success than there is now. It's not always about eating less (in majority of cases sure, eating less is a major component) but sometimes it's just about eating better. . . feeling better, making better food choice and usually the more nutritionally sound food choices have more bang for your buck in terms of satiety and the visual effect of still eating the same quantity of food (you get more food for less calories). I think will power and self control are two of the biggest reasons there isn't as much long term weight loss success as there could be.

Edited because apparently I suck at spelling

PeachyCarol

Annie_01 wrote: »

Patttience wrote: »

These are the fundamentals that affect EVERYONE's ability to succeed in the long term with weightloss.

I read your initial post with interest until...

The above statement...the word "EVERYONE" gave me second thoughts about your entire post.

While there might be some...maybe even many...that will benefit from your fundamentals I believe that to make the claim that "EVERYONE's" ability to succeed in the long term is inaccurate.

I am always skeptical when an author uses the term "EVERYONE".

Agreed completely.

I, for example, thoroughly enjoy exercise and find it suppresses my appetite.

The findings of the National Weight Control Registry also correlate exercise with maintenance.

I see nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with sharing what has worked for you, OP. I wish, however, you had been more open to understanding that there is room for discussion to be had because others may have had different experience. Someone else's experience does not invalidate your own.

Aani15

1. Exercise has and it will be, beneficial in weight loss, irrespective if you agree or disagree, tons of evidence is available based on REAL research not OPINIONS. If it did not work for a few people, it is fine but to say it will not be helpful in the long run for EVERYONE is just being imaginary and absurd.

2. There will always a few researches available to counter indicate some facts. That is where "common sense", comes into play to differentiate between facts and garbage.

3. MFP community believes in calories deficit to loss weight and being active. Some will disagree in this concept, it is fine but do not label this approach as ineffective simply based on your personal experiences.

Community section (success stories) have posts from real people who have lost weight (many people have also posted pictures). Now that is called making a point with PROOF not OPINIONS.

Most of your points are really good but please do not enforce your anti-exercise and calorie deficit stance on others. Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

acorsaut89

Patttience wrote: »

Well i am sorry that my attempt to address the critic at the top of the thread put people off.

It would be a shame if people decided to not take on board what i wrote in my first post because of how they didn't like the way i responded to one poster. I jsut reread my first response and couldn't even find anything that you could object to but she wrote back and again becuase her post persists in failing to show comprehension of my initial post, i got frustrated.

So human failing again. We don't have to like people to accept that they are right or make good points. I'm not asking you to like me.

I have proposed a bunch of things that are not commonly known, either in solo or as a package and which will make long term weightloss successful and much easier. If people aren't interested in ideas that will give them more success or to help them make it easier, that's sad for them.

What you said in your original post was nothing I haven't heard before - really. You made have chosen different vocabulary or re-arranged the points but I've heard it. I was 340lbs - I was significantly over weight.

I would also argue that while your approach worked for you - which is fantastic, by the way - it may not work for everyone. I weigh 257 lbs with 137 lbs of lean mass on me. 137 freakin pounds of lean body mass . . . that's more than some women weigh altogether. As I have dropped in weight my lean body mass has actually gone up about a pound or two in two years. I would then argue that for me - someone who exercises 5-6 times/week - that waiting until I'm an "ideal" body weight to start exercising would be pointless because according to BMI I should be around 160lbs for my height (5'10) but if I was 160lbs with 137lbs of lean mass I would have like 23 lbs of fat on my body . . . and that's not realistic without a whole lot of focus on nutrition and exercise. So you see, how for someone in my position, exercise at the weight I'm at adds to my life and to my success?

Also - fun fact, I'm a runner. Not a marathon runner or an ultra runner, but I run about 5K 3 times/week. So I eat carbs . . . a lot of them. For someone not as active as me they wouldn't consume as much carbs as me because their body doesn't have a need for them. So you see how one approach worked for you, and one approach has worked for me? We're all different. I'm glad you've had so much success in your journey - it's not easy and it's the hardest thing I think any of us will ever do - but everyone is different and we all work differently. It's awesome you shared what you learned, but maybe it just won't work for everyone . . . and you know what? That's totally ok.

Liftng4Lis

Simply said, it all comes down to CICO. Why overcomplicate it?

DeguelloTex

Patttience wrote: »

Again, CICO is accurate but its only useful in theory. In practice, in reality, people need more insight, advice and guidance. People don't even realise they don't know what CICO implies. Hence they go wrong.

I've lost 122 pounds by eating less than I burn and haven't regained. It seems like I'm not going wrong.

And it is absolutely useful in practice. I've done it. I'm doing it.

Machka9

anirud1 wrote: »

Exercise does not just boost one's health but it has so many other positive impacts on mental health and social wellbeing.

Absolutely!

Exercise is one of the ways I deal with stress.

Time, away from computers, technology, busy-ness, and most people, to think things through ... or time to push myself to my limits and get all my frustrations out ... or time to just relax and enjoy nature ...

It helps keep me sane!

itsbasschick

couldn't agree more!!!

years ago i was into bodybuilding, and even though i'm only 5' 3", it took a lot of calories to make up for all the calories i burned working out and to keep building muscle. and then i got pneumonia for several months. i lost a lot of muscle but gained a lot of fat - not only did i keep the appetite for a while, but i was used to eating a certain way, and even cutting down didn't bring me close to what i needed. and i couldn't get the right amount to preserve my muscle mass without gaining weight. when i wasn't sick any more, i weighed a little more but a much higher amount was fat than when i got sick. i never came back from it all the way, either.

Patttience wrote: »

2. Exercise is not the answer to successful long term weight. You do not need to exercise to lose weight and relying on it can be the reason why you fail. Exercise for health and fitness, not for weightloss. The studies generally show that people tend to replace all the calories burnt through exercise. To out-exercise your consumption you have to do a lot (more than an hour a day most days of the week) and that's not sustainable for the vast majority even in the short term let alone the long-term. This one I have fallen victim to more times than i can count. Exercise moderately for your health and do it when you feel like it. And if you have a great deal to lose, you are better off focusing almost all your effort on diet until you are inside your healthy weight range. Maybe I should write a blog on this because there are a lot of angles to cover.

If you choose to start off with exercise from the outset, when you stop you may find it takes a few weeks for your appetite to settle down but you should not be alarmed at a temporary rise in the scales. This is pretty normal. Do not panic. And do not give up your diet when you stop exercise. Everything is going to be fine so long as you continue to hold the line on your diet.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

senecarr

Patttience wrote: »

Stef, if it were this simple in practice, there would be much more long term success than there is in reality.

The truth is that most people who attempt weightloss fail in both the short and long term.

Again, CICO is accurate but its only useful in theory. In practice, in reality, people need more insight, advice and guidance. People don't even realise they don't know what CICO implies. Hence they go wrong.

Let me spell it out for you by giving you a common scenario.

Many people who are overweight also have a bit of depression. They are also not in peak nutritional condition. Both of these things conspire to make controlling their appetite difficult. So telling someone just eat less will not work. They won't be able to do it. Proof is in the knowledge that most people cannot willy nilly just start losing weight anytime the thought pops into their mind. People need to be readied. And what that means is a deep and unexplored territory. I've never ever seen a book discuss this.

that said, having been through it and over it numerous times and with all my research into hormones and understanding of how depression affects me, i have a pretty good clue as to what is going on there. This is why i make keeping myself happy one of my top priorities.

Now if you are going to persist in disagreeing with me, at least have the good grace to understand what my post is about. Perhaps read it through a couple of times - with an open mind.

You're confusing simple for easy. It is that simple. That doesn't make it easy.
Becoming rich on Wall Street is as simple as buy low, sell high (or more specifically buy stocks and sell them for more than you paid for them). That doesn't make it easy either.

hmrambling

Oh dear gawd. The long posts are off-putting (tl;dr). So are posts that dictate things like, "this is the one solitary way to do things, only my way works, and I have discovered the answers."

OP is being obtuse to responses. If you only want people to respond who agree with your post, then say so in your post.

Eat less.
Move more.
Find some activity that you like and do it.

CasperNaegle

Your initial post has a lot of great information and yes many people fight lots of things that bring about their eating issues. It still all boils down to calories in and calories out. You eat excess you gain... you eat in a calorie deficit you lose. If you have other issues that drive you to eat, be it emotional, or depression, or any other thing you should probably seek help to deal with those. Given this is a fitness and nutrition site and blog.. the basic science is clear about calories and how you lose or gain weight.

hmrambling

SezxyStef wrote: »

1. Log accurately and consistently
2. maintain my macros for health - get in enough protein to help maintain my muscle mass esp since I lift heavy.
3. maintain my exercise for fitness

Simple easy direct.

SLLRunner

You are correct that weight loss is calories in/calories out (eat less calories than you burn), and that you do not have to exercise to lose weight, but everything else is your own personal view on things and not backed up by any peer reviewed studies or solid evidence.

For example, you don't have to eat the "right" amount of protein and fat for weight loss, but it really helps with nutrition.

The part about severely cutting calories is superfluous because calories should never be cut severely unless a person is under a doctor's care for a VLCD because the risks of losing quickly are less than the risks of staying obese.

People who are unhappy and/or not organized in the kitchen lose weight just fine.

Oh, and I think exercise is very important, but I know I need to fuel my body by eating those exercise calories back, otherwise I get pretty cranky.

Lots of people keep their weight off. Go check out the success stories here.

I've been maintaining for two years.

The rest is just what has worked for you, but these things may not work for everyone, and they might work for others. CICO is first and foremost, and how you get there is individual.

SLLRunner

Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »

Patttience wrote: »

Well i am sorry that my attempt to address the critic at the top of the thread put people off.

It would be a shame if people decided to not take on board what i wrote in my first post because of how they didn't like the way i responded to one poster. I jsut reread my first response and couldn't even find anything that you could object to but she wrote back and again becuase her post persists in failing to show comprehension of my initial post, i got frustrated.

So human failing again. We don't have to like people to accept that they are right or make good points. I'm not asking you to like me.

I have proposed a bunch of things that are not commonly known, either in solo or as a package and which will make long term weightloss successful and much easier. If people aren't interested in ideas that will give them more success or to help them make it easier, that's sad for them.

Incorrect. You wrote a nice post. You told us what worked for YOU. Some of those things worked for me. Some of my own approach was QUITE different from what you posted.
I lost weight. I've been maintaining for FOURTEEN YEARS. What you posted as a whole is not "what works", it's what you did and succeeded with.
examples: you say we ALL can eat up to 40% of our calories from fat. Many of our posters are losing very well on 70% fat. You say eat fruits and vegetables. Many of our posters are losing very well (and are quite healthy) with no fruit.
You say exercise isn't the key. I believe and know that exercise, being active is a HUGE part of why I've been successful for FOURTEEN YEARS.

I lost weight, successfully, the first time I tried.
My list of "what worked" would look very different from yours. I know that, and so I don't post it as what's "best" for everyone.
What you posted is not "best for everyone" and what worked for me is not "best for everyone".

That's all most folks have objected to: your insistence that you have THE ONE ANSWER.

cheers and congrats on your loss and early maintenance success.

Plus one, because she has maintained weight for so long.

ahoy_m8

SLLRunner wrote: »

Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »

Patttience wrote: »

Well i am sorry that my attempt to address the critic at the top of the thread put people off.

It would be a shame if people decided to not take on board what i wrote in my first post because of how they didn't like the way i responded to one poster. I jsut reread my first response and couldn't even find anything that you could object to but she wrote back and again becuase her post persists in failing to show comprehension of my initial post, i got frustrated.

So human failing again. We don't have to like people to accept that they are right or make good points. I'm not asking you to like me.

I have proposed a bunch of things that are not commonly known, either in solo or as a package and which will make long term weightloss successful and much easier. If people aren't interested in ideas that will give them more success or to help them make it easier, that's sad for them.

Incorrect. You wrote a nice post. You told us what worked for YOU. Some of those things worked for me. Some of my own approach was QUITE different from what you posted.
I lost weight. I've been maintaining for FOURTEEN YEARS. What you posted as a whole is not "what works", it's what you did and succeeded with.
examples: you say we ALL can eat up to 40% of our calories from fat. Many of our posters are losing very well on 70% fat. You say eat fruits and vegetables. Many of our posters are losing very well (and are quite healthy) with no fruit.
You say exercise isn't the key. I believe and know that exercise, being active is a HUGE part of why I've been successful for FOURTEEN YEARS.

I lost weight, successfully, the first time I tried.
My list of "what worked" would look very different from yours. I know that, and so I don't post it as what's "best" for everyone.
What you posted is not "best for everyone" and what worked for me is not "best for everyone".

That's all most folks have objected to: your insistence that you have THE ONE ANSWER.

cheers and congrats on your loss and early maintenance success.

Plus one, because she has maintained weight for so long.

Plus two. This is one of those threads where I wish there were like buttons. Many thoughtful replies.

PeachyCarol

Machka9 wrote: »

anirud1 wrote: »

Exercise does not just boost one's health but it has so many other positive impacts on mental health and social wellbeing.

Absolutely!

Exercise is one of the ways I deal with stress.

Time, away from computers, technology, busy-ness, and most people, to think things through ... or time to push myself to my limits and get all my frustrations out ... or time to just relax and enjoy nature ...

It helps keep me sane!

Oh, so much this^ I solve the problems of the world while out walking/jogging. Sometimes my mind just gets blissfully empty, too -- never underestimate the value of time spent with a totally empty mind in the fresh air!

I'm also much more energetic overall throughout the day for having exercise as a regular part of my life.