What happens if you lift weights without progressive overload?
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LolBroScience wrote: »hamlet1222 wrote: »Good point, 'linear progression' was the phrase I was missing. I wonder, once you've got all your newbie gains, and hit your first plateau, how much more weight could you expect to be able to achieve? Could you still expect to eventually double your bench press weight for example? or just increase it by 20%? What would be a good target for someone in this position?
It will vary from person to person... genetic potential, leverages (some people built to be better deadlifters vs. benchers), how much work is being put in, surplus vs deficit... lots of factors. Obviously the more LBM you vary, the greater potential for maximizing strength though, generally speaking.
This is right. The problem that many have with linear progression is they start too heavy or don't understand the difference between a plateau and "the limit". As you approach a more advanced lifting state you will reach more "stall points" and plateaus resetting intelligently and work back up, examining diet, and ensuring adequate recovery all all necessary to continue progressing. Eventually you will reach a point of diminished returns and will need to switch to a more advanced program with more specialization to continue gaining. But, if strength is your number one goal then any return is a positive, even if not the most efficient way to add it. You have to remember too, even though your percent of strength gain, in pounds, may go down, the weight you are adding is still considerable on a progressive workout.0 -
There are a few different comments here that are not wrong but not necessarily correct either. YES you need to increase weight and force your body to get used to pushing more, hence why people use spotters... To increase weight safely. BUT this is counter intuitive because the only way you can increase weight is by being consistent across your whole body. People speak about plateaus' well plateaus only happen when one part of your body is holding the rest back. If you Plateau on Benchpress. The majority of the time your shoulders are behind. If you overtrain chest in the same go, your back will become weaker. This is because you can think of the body as an elastic band. If you pull too far on one side, the other will be weaker. Each muscle has an equal and opposite. So the progressive increase is necessary, but if you know what youre doing. Dont focus too much on one muscle group because you will hinder others. If you are finding that youre doing chest day twice a week and shoulders now twice, but legs and back are falling behind.... eventually they will cause a plateau aswell.
I hope this rant made sense. Remember you need to train Stabilizer muscles! This includes Rotator cuffs, or rear delts(not a stabilizer but people forget to train). and remember to do opposite muscle groups. if you do ABS, work your lower back the next day.0 -
The reason progressive overload is applied is to force muscle adaptation, as mentioned above. You can lift the same weight, same rep range forever, but what would be the purpose of lifting? As in any strength/resistance training regime, what your desired goal is directly affects how you approach that goal.
And, to correct JoRocka, I'm sure quite a few people on this site have reached genetic potential. I use this site to keep track of my macros, because it's convenient, but have been doing so AND lifting for years. There does come a point where you cannot put 5lbs more on the bar. My total 3 big lifts (squat, bench, dead) are well over 1000 lbs combined, and I can accurately say that on most exercises, I cannot put "5 more pounds" on the bar.0 -
The reason progressive overload is applied is to force muscle adaptation, as mentioned above. You can lift the same weight, same rep range forever, but what would be the purpose of lifting? As in any strength/resistance training regime, what your desired goal is directly affects how you approach that goal.
And, to correct JoRocka, I'm sure quite a few people on this site have reached genetic potential. I use this site to keep track of my macros, because it's convenient, but have been doing so AND lifting for years. There does come a point where you cannot put 5lbs more on the bar. My total 3 big lifts (squat, bench, dead) are well over 1000 lbs combined, and I can accurately say that on most exercises, I cannot put "5 more pounds" on the bar.
I would agree more with Jorocka then this statement. I find it very hard to believe that MOST people, perhaps some, have found their genetic potential. What is most likely the case is that they've hit a plateau with whatever cookie-cutter program they're following and do not have the education or experience to move past it. I've met many men and women that are incredibly and naturally strong for their size; the difference with them is they have the knowledge or are trained by very experienced and knowledgeable people, and that is what makes the difference. Most of what gets peddled on this site is SL5x5, StrongLifts, and those programs have limits. At some point one has to increase their knowledge somehow to move beyond where they are at. Just because somebody has been lifting for years doesn't mean they'll progress and it's not a sign of quality or knowledgeable training. Most people don't have the dedication to make that kind of progress.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »The reason progressive overload is applied is to force muscle adaptation, as mentioned above. You can lift the same weight, same rep range forever, but what would be the purpose of lifting? As in any strength/resistance training regime, what your desired goal is directly affects how you approach that goal.
And, to correct JoRocka, I'm sure quite a few people on this site have reached genetic potential. I use this site to keep track of my macros, because it's convenient, but have been doing so AND lifting for years. There does come a point where you cannot put 5lbs more on the bar. My total 3 big lifts (squat, bench, dead) are well over 1000 lbs combined, and I can accurately say that on most exercises, I cannot put "5 more pounds" on the bar.
I would agree more with Jorocka then this statement. I find it very hard to believe that MOST people, perhaps some, have found their genetic potential. What is most likely the case is that they've hit a plateau with whatever cookie-cutter program they're following and do not have the education or experience to move past it. I've met many men and women that are incredibly and naturally strong for their size; the difference with them is they have the knowledge or are trained by very experienced and knowledgeable people, and that is what makes the difference. Most of what gets peddled on this site is SL5x5, StrongLifts, and those programs have limits. At some point one has to increase their knowledge somehow to move beyond where they are at. Just because somebody has been lifting for years doesn't mean they'll progress and it's not a sign of quality or knowledgeable training. Most people don't have the dedication to make that kind of progress.
looking like a bobble head over here nodding away.
<nodsnodsnods>
last line is unfortunately true- but it is a grim reality.0 -
The reason progressive overload is applied is to force muscle adaptation, as mentioned above. You can lift the same weight, same rep range forever, but what would be the purpose of lifting? As in any strength/resistance training regime, what your desired goal is directly affects how you approach that goal.
And, to correct JoRocka, I'm sure quite a few people on this site have reached genetic potential. I use this site to keep track of my macros, because it's convenient, but have been doing so AND lifting for years. There does come a point where you cannot put 5lbs more on the bar. My total 3 big lifts (squat, bench, dead) are well over 1000 lbs combined, and I can accurately say that on most exercises, I cannot put "5 more pounds" on the bar.
They are in the minority. This site is not really comprised heavily of competitive athletes or advanced lifters.0 -
I agree that a majority of people have not reached genetic potential, or come close. And, I agree that that most people don't spend ridiculous amounts of time researching diets, routines, training styles, somatotypes, etc...I was just saying that what I've seen posted in some of these forums has led me to believe that there are users in this community who are dedicated enough to reach their genetic limits. I was more concerned with the all-inclusive statement that said no one on this site has reached genetic potential...0
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RE Genetic Limits: How do you define genetic limits? I think limitations in progress on MFP is largely due to knowledge and experience. You mention what you've seen posted and if you think about; if you have the knowledge and experience, you're not asking questions on MFP about what you should do. There's a fair-base of beginner knowledge on this site but it's limited after that and when somebody does try and drop some good intermediate / advanced knowledge it usually turns into a *kitten*-storm and argued by the larger group with only the beginner knowledge because that is all they know and the bulk of what is supported / accepted here.
*What I just said wasn't meant to be *kitten* or start a heated arguement, just my thoughts based on the recurring questions that appear on MFP. I bet if you do a search on MFP for progress overload, there are many threads discussing it.0 -
I agree that a majority of people have not reached genetic potential, or come close. And, I agree that that most people don't spend ridiculous amounts of time researching diets, routines, training styles, somatotypes, etc...I was just saying that what I've seen posted in some of these forums has led me to believe that there are users in this community who are dedicated enough to reach their genetic limits. I was more concerned with the all-inclusive statement that said no one on this site has reached genetic potential...
there are people here dedicated enough reach their potential- I'm sure of it. And there are some extremely talented lifters here- most of whom would probably admit- they haven't reached their top cap.
I'm personally willing to bet those few who are dedicated enough- haven't yet- and I don't say that with malice- I have a great number of those lifters on my friends list.0 -
My question is as one of those beginners is where do you go after you 'outgrow' SL 5x5 or one of the other programmes. I'm a long way from being at that point but for some others out there what's the next step. Is it a matter of getting a trainer or finding the next big thing being touted by a body building site?0
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My question is as one of those beginners is where do you go after you 'outgrow' SL 5x5 or one of the other programmes. I'm a long way from being at that point but for some others out there what's the next step. Is it a matter of getting a trainer or finding the next big thing being touted by a body building site?
Pretty much when you can no longer add 5 pounds to the bar every time you lift- you find yourself constantly failing lifts.
It's usually time for a deload- reattack- and then if you find yourself in the same place- might be time to move on to something besides a beginner program.0 -
Depends on what your personal preferences and goals are. You could go to multi-day splits, powerlifting workouts, "strongman" training, olympic lifts, etc. High/low volume, high/low reps, supersets, pyramids/reverse pyramids, circuit training...the possibilities are endless.My question is as one of those beginners is where do you go after you 'outgrow' SL 5x5 or one of the other programmes. I'm a long way from being at that point but for some others out there what's the next step. Is it a matter of getting a trainer or finding the next big thing being touted by a body building site?
By the time a beginner truly "outgrows" a program like Stronglifts (if there is such a thing as "outgrowing" it), they should have an enormous strength base and a very clear idea of what their next goals are. Hopefully they've also taken the time and made the effort to educate themselves about the many complex aspects of strength training so they're savvy enough to design their own workout programs tailored to their goals, rather than blindly relying on (and being crushed by) a routine from some fitness rag used by a pro bodybuilder who's 'roided to the gills. As a more advanced lifter, you'll most likely have more focused/specific goals than "get bigger" or "get stronger".0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Most people don't have the dedication to make that kind of progress.
looking like a bobble head over here nodding away.
<nodsnodsnods>
last line is unfortunately true- but it is a grim reality.
Some people don't come close to their full lifting potential? I don't think it's that grim, a grim reality is what's going on in the middle east at the moment, let's get some perspective.
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hamlet1222 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Most people don't have the dedication to make that kind of progress.
looking like a bobble head over here nodding away.
<nodsnodsnods>
last line is unfortunately true- but it is a grim reality.
Some people don't come close to their full lifting potential? I don't think it's that grim, a grim reality is what's going on in the middle east at the moment, let's get some perspective.
LOL, my goodness let's not be all over-dramatic now; surely Jo isn't comparing this to worldwide issues. Although one could contend that the lack of drive and gumption in today's American society is a major cause of the issues we're facing. Let's not take this thread into a philosophical debate on world issues, create a new thread, post the link here and I'll be glad to join a constructive debate.
I think the bottom-line on the subject-matter of "achieving genetic potential"; few of your average recreational lifters will ever get there, notice I didn't say none. To break plateaus one must be willing to be patient and put forth the mental and physical effort to push through it. Having some knowledge of how to manipulate training variables to do this helps as well; if that person doesn't know they should either do some research or find an intelligent individual on the subject of training that does. For somebody that's been lifting for let's say 6-months to a couple years to say they've achieved their genetic limit is likely confused with a training plateau.
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My question is as one of those beginners is where do you go after you 'outgrow' SL 5x5 or one of the other programmes. I'm a long way from being at that point but for some others out there what's the next step. Is it a matter of getting a trainer or finding the next big thing being touted by a body building site?
You'll know when you hit that point. As Jo mentioned you will struggle to add weight to the bar, deloads don't help, and a few weeks after a reset you're at the same sticking point; hell in some situations you may struggle with loads you could previously manage.
I don't know that a trainer is the best way, if you talk to other people and find one then awesome. If you have a local private gym in the area that specializes in training athletes you may consider going there and talking with a Strength & Conditioning Coach. Even if you're not an athlete, the average person will benefit from that kind of training. Training athletes may sound ominous or even impossible to some, but honestly in training athletes you focus on strength (e.g. Squats / Bench Press movements), power (e.g. Box Jumps / Power Cleans), mobility & balance (flexibility, proper movement, Core stability & Core strength), and make sure they're conditioned appropriately for their sport. So it's not entirely different from what many of us are already doing.
There are plenty of books out there as well. Training systems such as Beyond 5/3/1, Juggernaut Training, Strong360, etc., are training systems that you could potentially use forever.0 -
Good reading--I believe age should be thrown into the conversation at almost 50 and in very good shape, there is no way I can do what I did years ago without maybe steroids which will never happen0
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Progressive overload doesn't always mean increased resistance. There are multiple factors. Just pointing that out.0
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boomshakalaka911 wrote: »Progressive overload doesn't always mean increased resistance. There are multiple factors. Just pointing that out.
For sure; how you adjust your training variables really depends on what you're trying to achieve. A body builder will program and adjust differently than a National Olympic lifting competitor would for instance.0 -
Not a lot happens. you simply maintain where you are.0
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hamlet1222 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Most people don't have the dedication to make that kind of progress.
looking like a bobble head over here nodding away.
<nodsnodsnods>
last line is unfortunately true- but it is a grim reality.
Some people don't come close to their full lifting potential? I don't think it's that grim, a grim reality is what's going on in the middle east at the moment, let's get some perspective.
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