Need some running advice
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Charliegottheruns wrote: »Charliegottheruns wrote: »Set a goal. do you wanna run 1 mile in 10 minutes ? 3 miles in 30 minutes ? 10 miles in 60 minutes? You just said faster and most said build more miles first. lol !
Set a distance, a time, and a date, then break it down into small manageable goals. A running program is a complete package, but first you need a goal.
Any other questions, you know where to find me.
We didn't say do more miles first. We said that more miles was definitively the answer.
I'm sure the OP can run a 10 minute/mile pace for 100 yards. The issue isn't them obtaining that speed. The issue is endurance and maintaining that speed. How do you keep doing that for the next 100 yards, then for a mile, then for 2 and 3 miles. You have to build your endurance system.
A good goal would be a 5k some time out in the future. That's a good measuring stick for progress but for the most part just relax and enjoy running.
LOL is that your goal or her goal?
I have several goals...down the road I would like to do a 10k, ideally under an hour. However, first I would like to get my 5k time below 30 minutes.
The 5k I ran a couple of years ago I ran in 34 something...and that was faster than any of my training runs then or now. Lately, at that distance I am ranging from just under 38 minutes on a good day to 40 minutes on a bad day (and other than my outlier race time of 34ish minutes, most of my runs back then were also in this 37-40 range). I want to improve both speed and endurance ultimately, but I'm just trying to figure out the best plan to do so.0 -
I disagree with most here... Run short distances to save your ligaments from shocks. And when you run, reach maximum pulse at least once during the run, sprint a bit! This will improve your heart muscles, it will recruit muscle fibres and increase metabolism. Keep in mind you want to warm up prior to the run. Long distances will get you hurt as your condition will improve faster than your ligament durability. If your goal is to get lean the same thing applies, you can run 15k and not look the slightest trained but sprinting and explosive muscles show. Best of luck0
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Charliegottheruns wrote: »You just said faster and most said build more miles first. lol !
There's nothing funny or contrary to the advice that's been given.
The OP asked what the route to increased speed is and let us know her base is currently fairly shallow. Her pattern of training suggests a recreational runner and most rec runners tend to aim for a 5k or 10k event. She also indicated that she has reason to be concerned about injury. There's quite a bit of info in her first post upon which sound advice can be based upon.
The route to increasing speed is first through building a bigger base.
That's true if she was aiming for racing 10 or 20 seconds to cover 50 or 100 meters or running a half marathon, swimming butterfly for 50 meters, or competing in 1,500 meters freestyle.
There's little point in picking an arbitrary speed goal except for grins and giggles at this point, not that there is anything wrong with that.0 -
And which "goal" doesn't really matter. Run lots, and you get faster at everything. Once you have a strong base then you can talk about specific 5k or 1/2 workouts. Elite 5K and elite 1/2 marathoners both run 100+ km/week, over and over. There are no real shortcuts.
You give me one guy running a solid 30-60 miles per week vs someone running 20 but doing any sprint/interval/fartlek stuff they want and I'll put my money on distance guy every single time.
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I'll say the only thing that improved my speed was HIIT. 2-3 times a week I follow a 30 min HIIT treadmill workout. It seems counterproductive to spend time walking while you are trying to be faster, but the intervals of "all-out" running really seems work. The other 2-3 days I run a more consistent pace and usually for longer period.
I only tried HIIT because I couldn't seem to get any faster even after running for years. Even when I was running 5-6 miles several days a week I couldn't seem to break a 9:30-10 min mile pace. Now I consistently run under 9 min miles. For a race I did earlier this year I ran a 8:20 min mile for 5 miles.0 -
The best plan is to set goals, start with your dream accomplishment (10 k under an hour) , then break it down into smaller goals. (5k under 30 minutes)
Set a date. 4 weeks ? 6 weeks ?
5 k @ 30 minutes is just over 10 minute mile. - Goal
5 k @ 40 minutes (bad day) just over 13 minute mile. - Present
Increase speed from a 13 minute mile to 10 minute mile in ????? 10 weeks? ( keep it simple) December 10th ?
October 1, 40 minutes (Assessment))
October 8, 39 Minutes ( Goal )
October 15, 38 Minutes ( Goal )
October 22, 37 Minutes ( Goal )
..........
December 10, 30 Minutes ( Goal ) Whoop !
" SMART " Goals
S-specific
M-measurable
A-attainable
R-realistic
T-Timely
Do not just focus on running; bicycle, stair-climber, rower, elliptical, swimming, stretching, and resistance training can all be implemented into a cardio program.
Here's different types of runs that may fit into your weekly training. These runs where defined and individualized for me through a cardio fitness assessment center.
Recovery: A Recovery Run should be between 20-60 minutes in length, on flat terrain. Your intensity must remain low even if you hit any hills, slow down and focus on your breathing. The key to a Recovery Run is to run just enough to engage the active recovery process but not long or intense enough to induce a training stress.
Endurance: Endurance Runs improve aerobic development by increasing mitochondria size and density, increasing stroke volume, increasing respiratory endurance, and improving thermodynamic regulation. This workout is typically 45+ minutes and is done below a prescribed heart rate.
Steady State: Steady State Runs can be performed on the road or trails with a long steady climb, hills, or flat terrain. Steady State Runs should be performed after a warm up, and a few running strides.
These intervals should be done below your lactate threshold, and it is important that you maintain that intensity for the duration of the interval.
Tempo: Tempo Runs can be performed on the road or trails with a long steady climb, hills, or flat terrain. Tempo Runs should be performed after a warm-up, and a few running strides. Your Tempo run should be done continuously from start to finish at your Tempo heart rate or pace determined by testing. Tempo intervals are slightly below to slightly above the lactate threshold.
Fartlek Intervals: Fartlek Intervals improve lactate threshold and work on pacing, while simulating the changes that can occur during a race. After a warm up, increase the intensity until you reach the heart rate/ pace determined by a test. Continue at this intensity for the duration of the interval; after the specified interval is over, slow down to the recovery heart rate/ pace. Fartlek Intervals can be done at a variety of intensities and duration's. During the foundation period, all work will be below the lactate threshold. During the preparation and specialization period, Fartlek Intervals will be a mix of aerobic and anaerobic states.
Running Intervals (Max Efforts): Running Intervals improve lactate tolerance by working above your lactate threshold. Running Intervals are 30 seconds to 5 minutes in length at as close to max intensity. These intervals build up high levels of lactate and train the body to and buffer lactate efficiently. Running Intervals are very stressful on the body and needs to be performed with great care. During the weeks you perform speed intervals you will reduce your overall training hours to encourage recovery from the intervals.
I will email you my thoughts on nutrition and more specifics on an more individualized suggestions.
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Setting unrealistic goals is not a plan for anything but injury. Dropping 5km time essentially a minute per week suggests the runner will be pushing pace before ready.MoiAussi93 wrote: »I ran a 5k a couple of years ago...the problem is I am still at basically the same speed. I haven't progressed. Granted, I have not been consistent and have taken some time off for injuries and, to be honest, laziness. I know I need to be more consistent with it to progress, and now I'm ready to do that.
Great honesty and recognition of what you need to do!
Start logging miles consistently to build the base you need and that will open the door to adding in speed work and hills.
None of us preaching building a base are suggesting that speed work and other training is out of the question; it's just not what is needed at this time.
Bonus: just by being consistent and increasing your monthly volume your speed *will* improve without ever having done a single interval session at the track. By the time you are actually ready for speed work you'll already be faster.
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Yep, those are workouts for experienced runners not newbies.
Run lots, find a running group to socialize with, run at lunch or in the morning - whatever suits your schedule. So many options for Sunday morning runs.
See cake analogy. Crazy guy above eats icing.
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Cake. Carrot cake. Yum.
Or better yet, beer.
I run for beer. It's my profile motto so it must be true.0 -
I'm confused as to why your goal went from running faster to running more. If you only want to run 2 or 3 miles at a time, but run them faster, you can do that without doing 5 + mile runs. Just actually push yourself during those short runs. Yes, to run faster, you have to push yourself to a point where it's not comfortable for you. Just running more miles at your regular pace will not do that for you. If you want to run faster... Run faster...0
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Running more distance, consistently, absolutely build aerobic capacity and endurance. Without endurance, speed means nothing.
Given the OP's stated goals include running 5km and ultimately 10km events, simply pushing to go faster is not the solution.
To run a sub 30 minute 5k the runner must lay down five sub 6 minute kilometres. That's 2.5 minutes per mile faster than present.
Focus on speed alone and maybe the runner can pull off a faster pace, for some period of time, but can the runner maintain that pace for the duration of a 5km or 10km event? No. Just ask any kid that starts a foot race too fast and pulls up wheezing.
Endurance building builds... Endurance. Speed without endurance isn't useful.
None of this is controversial or new!0 -
I'm surprised at all the misinformation here! @mwyvr and @_Waffle_ absolutely have it right. Doing speed work at this point is a mistake. When I started running I really wanted to do the speed work right away but I listened to good advice like that given by @mwyvr and in 3 months took my 5k time from 30:13 to 26:32 doing nothing but easy miles with the exception of one or two tempo runs. And I did that with no overuse injury.0
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I'm confused as to why your goal went from running faster to running more. If you only want to run 2 or 3 miles at a time, but run them faster, you can do that without doing 5 + mile runs. Just actually push yourself during those short runs. Yes, to run faster, you have to push yourself to a point where it's not comfortable for you. Just running more miles at your regular pace will not do that for you. If you want to run faster... Run faster...
That's the misconception when it comes to running. There's this HUGE other aspect called running economy that dictates how efficiently you run, which translates to less effort/lower HR for a given speed. We all can sprint pretty quickly - it's not leg strength/speed that's limiting our 10K pace. It's aerobic capacity which ties to efficiency. To stick with the food analogy, your genetic v02 max range, and trained LT pace matter, but are dwarfed by how economical you are. And volume is what bakes that cake.
So yes, eventually you need to do specific training stresses for your event but that doesn't even come into the picture until you're running 30+ miles per week, for months. You're also way more likely to get hurt, ESPECIALLY in someone 40+.
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Charliegottheruns wrote: »The best plan is to set goals, start with your dream accomplishment (10 k under an hour) , then break it down into smaller goals. (5k under 30 minutes)
Set a date. 4 weeks ? 6 weeks ?
5 k @ 30 minutes is just over 10 minute mile. - Goal
5 k @ 40 minutes (bad day) just over 13 minute mile. - Present
Increase speed from a 13 minute mile to 10 minute mile in ????? 10 weeks? ( keep it simple) December 10th ?
October 1, 40 minutes (Assessment))
October 8, 39 Minutes ( Goal )
October 15, 38 Minutes ( Goal )
October 22, 37 Minutes ( Goal )
..........
December 10, 30 Minutes ( Goal ) Whoop !
" SMART " Goals
S-specific
M-measurable
A-attainable
R-realistic
T-Timely
Do not just focus on running; bicycle, stair-climber, rower, elliptical, swimming, stretching, and resistance training can all be implemented into a cardio program.
Here's different types of runs that may fit into your weekly training. These runs where defined and individualized for me through a cardio fitness assessment center.
Recovery: A Recovery Run should be between 20-60 minutes in length, on flat terrain. Your intensity must remain low even if you hit any hills, slow down and focus on your breathing. The key to a Recovery Run is to run just enough to engage the active recovery process but not long or intense enough to induce a training stress.
Endurance: Endurance Runs improve aerobic development by increasing mitochondria size and density, increasing stroke volume, increasing respiratory endurance, and improving thermodynamic regulation. This workout is typically 45+ minutes and is done below a prescribed heart rate.
Steady State: Steady State Runs can be performed on the road or trails with a long steady climb, hills, or flat terrain. Steady State Runs should be performed after a warm up, and a few running strides.
These intervals should be done below your lactate threshold, and it is important that you maintain that intensity for the duration of the interval.
Tempo: Tempo Runs can be performed on the road or trails with a long steady climb, hills, or flat terrain. Tempo Runs should be performed after a warm-up, and a few running strides. Your Tempo run should be done continuously from start to finish at your Tempo heart rate or pace determined by testing. Tempo intervals are slightly below to slightly above the lactate threshold.
Fartlek Intervals: Fartlek Intervals improve lactate threshold and work on pacing, while simulating the changes that can occur during a race. After a warm up, increase the intensity until you reach the heart rate/ pace determined by a test. Continue at this intensity for the duration of the interval; after the specified interval is over, slow down to the recovery heart rate/ pace. Fartlek Intervals can be done at a variety of intensities and duration's. During the foundation period, all work will be below the lactate threshold. During the preparation and specialization period, Fartlek Intervals will be a mix of aerobic and anaerobic states.
Running Intervals (Max Efforts): Running Intervals improve lactate tolerance by working above your lactate threshold. Running Intervals are 30 seconds to 5 minutes in length at as close to max intensity. These intervals build up high levels of lactate and train the body to and buffer lactate efficiently. Running Intervals are very stressful on the body and needs to be performed with great care. During the weeks you perform speed intervals you will reduce your overall training hours to encourage recovery from the intervals.
I will email you my thoughts on nutrition and more specifics on an more individualized suggestions.
There are a few issues with this. One is the common misconception about what a tempo run is
"the tempo run was popularized by Jack Daniels, Ph.D., about a decade ago. Here’s his definition, taken from Daniels’ Running Formula (Human Kinetics): "A tempo run is nothing more than 20 minutes of steady running at threshold pace." (He goes on to say that 20 minutes is ideal, but may be varied to suit the needs of a particular course.) Without getting too technical, threshold pace is the effort level just below which the body’s ability to clear lactate, a by-product of carbohydrate metabolism, can no longer keep up with lactate production. Daniels states that this pace is, for most people, about 25 to 30 seconds per mile slower than current 5K race pace." (Beck, 1999)
He goes on to add:
"Athletes racing from 15K on up to the marathon receive the most benefit from tempo runs because the physiological adaptations are most specific to the demands of those races," he notes. "An improvement in lactate threshold is only a small benefit for a 5K race because that race is run well above lactate-threshold pace. Performance in races of 15K to the marathon, however, is determined primarily by the runner’s lactate-threshold pace." (Beck, 1999)
There is also a lot of debate over doing tempo runs over hills of uneven terrain, since it is timed and generally done at a pace.
The one thing I think is odd is the discouraging of running more distance to both prepare and gain the adaptations necessary to then increase speed. Right now we know the OP's mileage is between 6.4 and 9.6 miles a week. You are suggesting dropping a minute off of a race time a week with what would be a Hugh increase in mileage. This is one of the mistakes the military makes with new recruits, and why they have such high rates of overuse injuries. Slowing adding mileage would be the smartest move initially allowing the OP to adjust to the increased demands. The same principle is applied with lifting, you would not walk in and start working out triple the amount of time and expect everything to go off without a hitch.
I think for a person with more of a running background your plan would be good. But the basics need to be there before you worry about adding in those workouts.
http://www.runnersworld.com/workouts/what-is-a-tempo-run#0 -
Running more distance, consistently, absolutely build aerobic capacity and endurance. Without endurance, speed means nothing.
Given the OP's stated goals include running 5km and ultimately 10km events, simply pushing to go faster is not the solution.
To run a sub 30 minute 5k the runner must lay down five sub 6 minute kilometres. That's 2.5 minutes per mile faster than present.
Focus on speed alone and maybe the runner can pull off a faster pace, for some period of time, but can the runner maintain that pace for the duration of a 5km or 10km event? No. Just ask any kid that starts a foot race too fast and pulls up wheezing.
Endurance building builds... Endurance. Speed without endurance isn't useful.
None of this is controversial or new!
I guess I didn't see anything about doing longer events in the original post...
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So I went for a run earlier today and deliberately kept it very slow and easy to test how far I could run at an easy pace outside. I ran 4.25 miles at a 12:53 pace...so definitely a little slower than normal. I kept resisting the urge to speed up for the first couple of miles, but by the end it became more challenging and i stopped when my breathing became hard to control...I could have run further but it would not be at a conversational pace.
If I can up my standard run to that distance, or at least do that once a week as an endurance/long run that I gradually lengthen and just add more days with shorter runs some of which are a bit faster, I think I should be able to build up my weekly mileage fairly quickly.
I know I need to run more days a week. That is clear. And if I can make at least some of them longer, it will build that base pretty quickly.
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Terrific! Don't fear the little slower than normal. You'll get there!
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I know speed doesn't necessarily = knowledge (I can run faster than my coach), but I would be interested to know whether the people giving the good advice above (gradually build up slow mileage) can run faster, on average, than the people giving the terrible advice above (push yourself really hard and do loads of speedwork!!!). I bet they can. Luckily the OP seems very sensible!0
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Totally anecdotal evidence. I recently finished a 100k race, during my training I didn't do any speed work at all. I was just focused on getting as much road time as possible. Towards the end of my training I did two speed runs, 5k and 10k. Both on hilly trails.
My 5k time was 22:40ish, down from around 28:00
My 10 time was 53:10ish down from 1:00:00
I could have also gone faster on both of those but I was wary of injury that close to my main run.
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I know speed doesn't necessarily = knowledge (I can run faster than my coach), but I would be interested to know whether the people giving the good advice above (gradually build up slow mileage) can run faster, on average, than the people giving the terrible advice above (push yourself really hard and do loads of speedwork!!!). I bet they can. Luckily the OP seems very sensible!
nods.
Look at any advanced marathon plan - you're never doing more than 20% of your miles at a high intensity. Want to run sub-3? Get ready for some 60-70 mile weeks! That intensity percentage doesn't go up for less advanced runners, it goes down. When you're just starting out, it won't do anything for you anyway (except increase your injury chances).0
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