Need some running advice
Replies
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Running more distance, consistently, absolutely build aerobic capacity and endurance. Without endurance, speed means nothing.
Given the OP's stated goals include running 5km and ultimately 10km events, simply pushing to go faster is not the solution.
To run a sub 30 minute 5k the runner must lay down five sub 6 minute kilometres. That's 2.5 minutes per mile faster than present.
Focus on speed alone and maybe the runner can pull off a faster pace, for some period of time, but can the runner maintain that pace for the duration of a 5km or 10km event? No. Just ask any kid that starts a foot race too fast and pulls up wheezing.
Endurance building builds... Endurance. Speed without endurance isn't useful.
None of this is controversial or new!0 -
I'm surprised at all the misinformation here! @mwyvr and @_Waffle_ absolutely have it right. Doing speed work at this point is a mistake. When I started running I really wanted to do the speed work right away but I listened to good advice like that given by @mwyvr and in 3 months took my 5k time from 30:13 to 26:32 doing nothing but easy miles with the exception of one or two tempo runs. And I did that with no overuse injury.0
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I'm confused as to why your goal went from running faster to running more. If you only want to run 2 or 3 miles at a time, but run them faster, you can do that without doing 5 + mile runs. Just actually push yourself during those short runs. Yes, to run faster, you have to push yourself to a point where it's not comfortable for you. Just running more miles at your regular pace will not do that for you. If you want to run faster... Run faster...
That's the misconception when it comes to running. There's this HUGE other aspect called running economy that dictates how efficiently you run, which translates to less effort/lower HR for a given speed. We all can sprint pretty quickly - it's not leg strength/speed that's limiting our 10K pace. It's aerobic capacity which ties to efficiency. To stick with the food analogy, your genetic v02 max range, and trained LT pace matter, but are dwarfed by how economical you are. And volume is what bakes that cake.
So yes, eventually you need to do specific training stresses for your event but that doesn't even come into the picture until you're running 30+ miles per week, for months. You're also way more likely to get hurt, ESPECIALLY in someone 40+.
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Charliegottheruns wrote: »The best plan is to set goals, start with your dream accomplishment (10 k under an hour) , then break it down into smaller goals. (5k under 30 minutes)
Set a date. 4 weeks ? 6 weeks ?
5 k @ 30 minutes is just over 10 minute mile. - Goal
5 k @ 40 minutes (bad day) just over 13 minute mile. - Present
Increase speed from a 13 minute mile to 10 minute mile in ????? 10 weeks? ( keep it simple) December 10th ?
October 1, 40 minutes (Assessment))
October 8, 39 Minutes ( Goal )
October 15, 38 Minutes ( Goal )
October 22, 37 Minutes ( Goal )
..........
December 10, 30 Minutes ( Goal ) Whoop !
" SMART " Goals
S-specific
M-measurable
A-attainable
R-realistic
T-Timely
Do not just focus on running; bicycle, stair-climber, rower, elliptical, swimming, stretching, and resistance training can all be implemented into a cardio program.
Here's different types of runs that may fit into your weekly training. These runs where defined and individualized for me through a cardio fitness assessment center.
Recovery: A Recovery Run should be between 20-60 minutes in length, on flat terrain. Your intensity must remain low even if you hit any hills, slow down and focus on your breathing. The key to a Recovery Run is to run just enough to engage the active recovery process but not long or intense enough to induce a training stress.
Endurance: Endurance Runs improve aerobic development by increasing mitochondria size and density, increasing stroke volume, increasing respiratory endurance, and improving thermodynamic regulation. This workout is typically 45+ minutes and is done below a prescribed heart rate.
Steady State: Steady State Runs can be performed on the road or trails with a long steady climb, hills, or flat terrain. Steady State Runs should be performed after a warm up, and a few running strides.
These intervals should be done below your lactate threshold, and it is important that you maintain that intensity for the duration of the interval.
Tempo: Tempo Runs can be performed on the road or trails with a long steady climb, hills, or flat terrain. Tempo Runs should be performed after a warm-up, and a few running strides. Your Tempo run should be done continuously from start to finish at your Tempo heart rate or pace determined by testing. Tempo intervals are slightly below to slightly above the lactate threshold.
Fartlek Intervals: Fartlek Intervals improve lactate threshold and work on pacing, while simulating the changes that can occur during a race. After a warm up, increase the intensity until you reach the heart rate/ pace determined by a test. Continue at this intensity for the duration of the interval; after the specified interval is over, slow down to the recovery heart rate/ pace. Fartlek Intervals can be done at a variety of intensities and duration's. During the foundation period, all work will be below the lactate threshold. During the preparation and specialization period, Fartlek Intervals will be a mix of aerobic and anaerobic states.
Running Intervals (Max Efforts): Running Intervals improve lactate tolerance by working above your lactate threshold. Running Intervals are 30 seconds to 5 minutes in length at as close to max intensity. These intervals build up high levels of lactate and train the body to and buffer lactate efficiently. Running Intervals are very stressful on the body and needs to be performed with great care. During the weeks you perform speed intervals you will reduce your overall training hours to encourage recovery from the intervals.
I will email you my thoughts on nutrition and more specifics on an more individualized suggestions.
There are a few issues with this. One is the common misconception about what a tempo run is
"the tempo run was popularized by Jack Daniels, Ph.D., about a decade ago. Here’s his definition, taken from Daniels’ Running Formula (Human Kinetics): "A tempo run is nothing more than 20 minutes of steady running at threshold pace." (He goes on to say that 20 minutes is ideal, but may be varied to suit the needs of a particular course.) Without getting too technical, threshold pace is the effort level just below which the body’s ability to clear lactate, a by-product of carbohydrate metabolism, can no longer keep up with lactate production. Daniels states that this pace is, for most people, about 25 to 30 seconds per mile slower than current 5K race pace." (Beck, 1999)
He goes on to add:
"Athletes racing from 15K on up to the marathon receive the most benefit from tempo runs because the physiological adaptations are most specific to the demands of those races," he notes. "An improvement in lactate threshold is only a small benefit for a 5K race because that race is run well above lactate-threshold pace. Performance in races of 15K to the marathon, however, is determined primarily by the runner’s lactate-threshold pace." (Beck, 1999)
There is also a lot of debate over doing tempo runs over hills of uneven terrain, since it is timed and generally done at a pace.
The one thing I think is odd is the discouraging of running more distance to both prepare and gain the adaptations necessary to then increase speed. Right now we know the OP's mileage is between 6.4 and 9.6 miles a week. You are suggesting dropping a minute off of a race time a week with what would be a Hugh increase in mileage. This is one of the mistakes the military makes with new recruits, and why they have such high rates of overuse injuries. Slowing adding mileage would be the smartest move initially allowing the OP to adjust to the increased demands. The same principle is applied with lifting, you would not walk in and start working out triple the amount of time and expect everything to go off without a hitch.
I think for a person with more of a running background your plan would be good. But the basics need to be there before you worry about adding in those workouts.
http://www.runnersworld.com/workouts/what-is-a-tempo-run#0 -
Running more distance, consistently, absolutely build aerobic capacity and endurance. Without endurance, speed means nothing.
Given the OP's stated goals include running 5km and ultimately 10km events, simply pushing to go faster is not the solution.
To run a sub 30 minute 5k the runner must lay down five sub 6 minute kilometres. That's 2.5 minutes per mile faster than present.
Focus on speed alone and maybe the runner can pull off a faster pace, for some period of time, but can the runner maintain that pace for the duration of a 5km or 10km event? No. Just ask any kid that starts a foot race too fast and pulls up wheezing.
Endurance building builds... Endurance. Speed without endurance isn't useful.
None of this is controversial or new!
I guess I didn't see anything about doing longer events in the original post...
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So I went for a run earlier today and deliberately kept it very slow and easy to test how far I could run at an easy pace outside. I ran 4.25 miles at a 12:53 pace...so definitely a little slower than normal. I kept resisting the urge to speed up for the first couple of miles, but by the end it became more challenging and i stopped when my breathing became hard to control...I could have run further but it would not be at a conversational pace.
If I can up my standard run to that distance, or at least do that once a week as an endurance/long run that I gradually lengthen and just add more days with shorter runs some of which are a bit faster, I think I should be able to build up my weekly mileage fairly quickly.
I know I need to run more days a week. That is clear. And if I can make at least some of them longer, it will build that base pretty quickly.
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Terrific! Don't fear the little slower than normal. You'll get there!
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I know speed doesn't necessarily = knowledge (I can run faster than my coach), but I would be interested to know whether the people giving the good advice above (gradually build up slow mileage) can run faster, on average, than the people giving the terrible advice above (push yourself really hard and do loads of speedwork!!!). I bet they can. Luckily the OP seems very sensible!0
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Totally anecdotal evidence. I recently finished a 100k race, during my training I didn't do any speed work at all. I was just focused on getting as much road time as possible. Towards the end of my training I did two speed runs, 5k and 10k. Both on hilly trails.
My 5k time was 22:40ish, down from around 28:00
My 10 time was 53:10ish down from 1:00:00
I could have also gone faster on both of those but I was wary of injury that close to my main run.
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I know speed doesn't necessarily = knowledge (I can run faster than my coach), but I would be interested to know whether the people giving the good advice above (gradually build up slow mileage) can run faster, on average, than the people giving the terrible advice above (push yourself really hard and do loads of speedwork!!!). I bet they can. Luckily the OP seems very sensible!
nods.
Look at any advanced marathon plan - you're never doing more than 20% of your miles at a high intensity. Want to run sub-3? Get ready for some 60-70 mile weeks! That intensity percentage doesn't go up for less advanced runners, it goes down. When you're just starting out, it won't do anything for you anyway (except increase your injury chances).0 -
focus on the distance first, then speed will come almost naturally
In my experience - no book training, no expert consulted, I simply started to run - I found that the fitter you are the fitter you become, and speed improves as a consequence
After I was able to run ~30-40 miles per week, I noticed that a few 10km work outs done at a faster pace helped me improving my average speed, so I started to mix these "fast" run with my weekly proper runs, and my pace went down significantly
but more importantly, enjoy your run, despite the pace
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OP,
read these articles if you want some more information about the excellent advice you have been given in this thread to concentrate on base endurance at this point:
Importance of Aerobic Running
Speed v Aerobic Endurance - what is holding you back
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If you're using runkeeper, it has some training plans that might be helpful. I am doing the Beginnner 5 K which starts low, but has some gentle interval training. I was surprised how my speed picked up. I think I could have gone faster but was holding back, running fast for 60 seconds, then slow for 90 seconds I was surprised that to discover after doing this a couple of times that my slow running was at the same pace as my free run pace.0
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someone here told me that you build speed from the ground up
ie: you need to build the muscles to go faster and this is done by running more miles and doing so consistently.0 -
I know speed doesn't necessarily = knowledge (I can run faster than my coach), but I would be interested to know whether the people giving the good advice above (gradually build up slow mileage) can run faster, on average, than the people giving the terrible advice above (push yourself really hard and do loads of speedwork!!!). I bet they can. Luckily the OP seems very sensible!
I can't think of any "go hard, go fast" runner I've met who lasted more than 6 months. I'm on year 7 from the couch and within seconds of breaking 1:25 (maybe this spring) on the half. No injuries other than 1 calf pull on a mud-race couple years ago. But age sucks too.
Your PR list is most impressive!
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I'm confused as to why your goal went from running faster to running more. If you only want to run 2 or 3 miles at a time, but run them faster, you can do that without doing 5 + mile runs. Just actually push yourself during those short runs. Yes, to run faster, you have to push yourself to a point where it's not comfortable for you. Just running more miles at your regular pace will not do that for you. If you want to run faster... Run faster...
Mo Farah who pretty much dominates the shorter and medium long distance races (I know, oxymoron), meaning 5K's and 10K's. But he averages 120 miles per week in his training.
You normally would associate 120 miles with an elite athelete training for a marathon, but your shorter distance athletes actually run this.
For a beginner, more miles is king. That's because any running you do for more than 90 seconds requires lots and lots of oxygen to burn fuel for energy. As a beginner in an unfit state, you have a poor aerobic conditioning (meaning your body is not used to taking in all that oxygen and using it). You have poor number and size of mitochondria in your muscle cells (that's the oxygen burning powerhouses in your muscle), you have low count of hemoglobin in your blood (that's what carries oxygen in your blood), you have a lower number of capillaries (the smallest blood vessels branching off your arteries towards your muscle cells), your heart is weaker (pumps blood). All these improve as a function of time spent running. That means more miles translates to more time spent running which will speed up the development of new capillaries, new and bigger mitochondria, increased hemoglobin count, and stronger heart. All of which delivers more oxygen to your muscles and turns it into more energy to run faster. Running faster will not improve any of these things any more, except crush the runner, make them want to run less, and thus these improvements don't accelerate as fast. In fact, running faster will add more wear to the physical side (more wear to muscles, bones, ligaments, joints, ect) which requires more rest to repair. Things that add to endurance, but do not make a runner any faster per say.
Things like tempo runs and steady state runs improve lactate threshold and clearing, and repeats/intervals improves the nuerological messaging and increases turnover rate. But as someone else said, this is more of the icing on the cake. These things come later on after aerobic base building is first established. Increasing your aerobic conditioning automatically increases your speed. Instead of running really fast for 30 seconds then give up almost ready to die, you are able to run quite a bit further at a higher speed than you would normally have done say 3 or 4 weeks ago.
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He goes on to add:
"Athletes racing from 15K on up to the marathon receive the most benefit from tempo runs because the physiological adaptations are most specific to the demands of those races," he notes. "An improvement in lactate threshold is only a small benefit for a 5K race because that race is run well above lactate-threshold pace. Performance in races of 15K to the marathon, however, is determined primarily by the runner’s lactate-threshold pace." (Beck, 1999)
What page is that on? I have to re-read that because I find this hard to believe. LT pace can be maintained for an hour. A 5K for a good runner is well below an hour (20 minutes or less for a really good runner). So 5K pace should actually be quite below LT pace. Any race that takes you 50 minutes to an hour would be around your actual LT pace.Right now we know the OP's mileage is between 6.4 and 9.6 miles a week. You are suggesting dropping a minute off of a race time a week with what would be a Hugh increase in mileage. This is one of the mistakes the military makes with new recruits, and why they have such high rates of overuse injuries. Slowing adding mileage would be the smartest move initially allowing the OP to adjust to the increased demands. The same principle is applied with lifting, you would not walk in and start working out triple the amount of time and expect everything to go off without a hitch.
This is very important in what he is saying here. You slowly add your miles on. Adding 1 mile per week is a good conservative rate. The most aggressive but still remain relatively safe would be the 10% rule. Add no more than 10% of your weekly distance to your next week's distance. Cut back weeks (running less miles the next week for 1 week) are also important. It allows your body to absorb the previous week's training before you are able to start increasing again. Have at least 1 day rest in between runs is good in the beggining. Later on you can do back to back days and even 2 a days.
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I think you guys are saying the same thing. It's just a difference in what you perceive above or below to mean. In saying that the 5K is run well above lactate threshold pace, I think he means that the pace is faster than LT.
What page is that on? I have to re-read that because I find this hard to believe. LT pace can be maintained for an hour. A 5K for a good runner is well below an hour (20 minutes or less for a really good runner). So 5K pace should actually be quite below LT pace. Any race that takes you 50 minutes to an hour would be around your actual LT pace.
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lporter229 wrote: »
I think you guys are saying the same thing. It's just a difference in what you perceive above or below to mean. In saying that the 5K is run well above lactate threshold pace, I think he means that the pace is faster than LT.
What page is that on? I have to re-read that because I find this hard to believe. LT pace can be maintained for an hour. A 5K for a good runner is well below an hour (20 minutes or less for a really good runner). So 5K pace should actually be quite below LT pace. Any race that takes you 50 minutes to an hour would be around your actual LT pace.
OK, that makes sense then. LOL Thanks for clearing that up.0 -
I don't know. I don't have the time to run 30+ miles a week, but I want to improve my 5K and 8K run times. So what's your suggestion then? Doing the interval runs I was able to knock over a minute off my mile pace. I still only run about 20-25 miles a week.0
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I don't know. I don't have the time to run 30+ miles a week, but I want to improve my 5K and 8K run times. So what's your suggestion then? Doing the interval runs I was able to knock over a minute off my mile pace. I still only run about 20-25 miles a week.
If you are running 20-25 miles per week, then you have already built up a base. While it never hurts to continue to strengthen you base, considering your goals and time constraints, then yes, you can probably benefit from speed work. OP states that she is currently running 10 or so miles per week. Totally different situation.
However, if you are running 20-25 mpw, I am assuming ALL of that is not intervals, right?0 -
I know speed doesn't necessarily = knowledge (I can run faster than my coach), but I would be interested to know whether the people giving the good advice above (gradually build up slow mileage) can run faster, on average, than the people giving the terrible advice above (push yourself really hard and do loads of speedwork!!!). I bet they can. Luckily the OP seems very sensible!
I can't think of any "go hard, go fast" runner I've met who lasted more than 6 months. I'm on year 7 from the couch and within seconds of breaking 1:25 (maybe this spring) on the half. No injuries other than 1 calf pull on a mud-race couple years ago. But age sucks too. Your PR list is most impressive!
I don't think telling someone who wants to run faster to run faster is terrible advice. I've been running almost 20 years. I've only run 3 races in my life because I don't like races and I don't train for them; placed first in 2 of them, 4th in the 3rd. I can comfortably run about 16 miles, or I can maintain a 7 min mile for 3... I run as little as twice a week or as much as twice a day depending on what sport I'm most enamoured with any given week. No injuries. Running manuals shouldn't be read as gospel. Running is not that complicated. Just do it. Nike and such...
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if you have a good base, you could consider hills. the evil, evil hills. or fartleks0
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to the OP:
as you can see, asking for advice is a bit dangerous on an open forum such as this. My observation is that there are many ways to get where you want to go, so don't get hung up on being on the "right" road. Determine what your goal is and find a plan that you are comfortable with to get you there. I always suggest that novice runners get a book on running ( I used The Complete Book of Running, by Runner's World) It offers fantastic and easily understood advice geared for the beginner without complicating things with a bunch of clutter that is over the head of all but the dedicated running enthusiast.0 -
I don't know. I don't have the time to run 30+ miles a week, but I want to improve my 5K and 8K run times. So what's your suggestion then? Doing the interval runs I was able to knock over a minute off my mile pace. I still only run about 20-25 miles a week.
If you are running 20-25 miles per week (40kms = eight 5km runs or five 8km runs), and have been for a while, then you have built a base to work off of. The "have been for a while" is the key part.0 -
I know speed doesn't necessarily = knowledge (I can run faster than my coach), but I would be interested to know whether the people giving the good advice above (gradually build up slow mileage) can run faster, on average, than the people giving the terrible advice above (push yourself really hard and do loads of speedwork!!!). I bet they can. Luckily the OP seems very sensible!
I can't think of any "go hard, go fast" runner I've met who lasted more than 6 months. I'm on year 7 from the couch and within seconds of breaking 1:25 (maybe this spring) on the half. No injuries other than 1 calf pull on a mud-race couple years ago. But age sucks too. Your PR list is most impressive!
I don't think telling someone who wants to run faster to run faster is terrible advice. I've been running almost 20 years. I've only run 3 races in my life because I don't like races and I don't train for them; placed first in 2 of them, 4th in the 3rd. I can comfortably run about 16 miles, or I can maintain a 7 min mile for 3... I run as little as twice a week or as much as twice a day depending on what sport I'm most enamoured with any given week. No injuries. Running manuals shouldn't be read as gospel. Running is not that complicated. Just do it. Nike and such...
It can be if the person starts to hate running because they are putting all of this effort, getting out of breath rather quickly, having to mentally overcome a hard intensity, risking injury (because they think every time I have to run I have to give it my all) and not give enough rest time in between, and then not see themselves improve as quickly as they expect. it's like, "Hey I am busting my hump here and I only shaved 30 seconds off my 5K time?"
In the mean time, you have someone who most likely is enjoying their training time better, because the intensity is not as great, but they are able to spend more time to actually run (be it at a slower rate), and see much bigger improvements much faster.
hell, If me and a buddy did a 5K together and finished at similar times, then I worked real hard to beat him as you suggest. I follow your idea of busting it out as hard as I can every workout for 6 weeks. he follows the more miles but slower ruitine. I will guarentee you that the slower but futher guy will beat the first guy, and I would be so peed oh'd that i give up running. And that is if I can actually make it to the starting line, because i pulled a hamstring or got a bad case of achiles tendonites half way during my training.0 -
lporter229 wrote: »I don't know. I don't have the time to run 30+ miles a week, but I want to improve my 5K and 8K run times. So what's your suggestion then? Doing the interval runs I was able to knock over a minute off my mile pace. I still only run about 20-25 miles a week.
If you are running 20-25 miles per week, then you have already built up a base. While it never hurts to continue to strengthen you base, considering your goals and time constraints, then yes, you can probably benefit from speed work. OP states that she is currently running 10 or so miles per week. Totally different situation.
However, if you are running 20-25 mpw, I am assuming ALL of that is not intervals, right?
No, I do a 30 min HIIT treadmill run 3 times a week (Mon, Wed., Fri) which is 3.4 miles each time. Tuesdays and Thursdays I just run a steady pace for 30 minutes (40 minutes if I have the time). Saturdays I try to do a longer, slower run outside weather and time permitting - usually 4 or 5 miles.
I'd like to improve my speed even further. I've been at this pace for awhile now. Do I need to add more mileage?0 -
I've been running almost 20 years. [...] I can comfortably run about 16 miles, or I can maintain a 7 min mile for 3... I run as little as twice a week or as much as twice a day depending on what sport I'm most enamoured with any given week.
What you are saying is you have a 20 year base of running. A solid base even if a bit thin at times. Plus you are active elsewhere.
That consistent level of activity spanning a very long period of time is a lot different than the scenario the OP painted, and different than most of the people on MFP for that matter.
When I was in my 30's I too had been running for 20+ years, competed in track, cross country, and orienteering in school. As a young adult I continued to run but didn't race that much - a few fast 10km races, some fun runs, a couple marathons. Mostly I ran for fitness and to support my other activities. But also running was (and is) fun for me and part of my social experience. Even when distracted by back-country skiing or some other sport or endeavour I could be a weekend warrior and pull in a sub 40 minute 10km whenever I wanted to, but like you I already had a broad base of fitness and in my case most of my sporting activities included running or hill climbing in the mountains. For social fun ran with the local Hash House Harriers, a Drinking Club With A Running Problem. Got even faster with them despite the beer. Over all the years I remained mostly uninjured (ITBS once, nothing else stands out) but I attribute that to some luck, genetics, age at the time, and knowledge picked up from marathon training.
In short, I had a solid base spanning most of my life at that point, and that is what allowed me to join a race any time I wanted to, not a slogan from Nike.
Your scenario, my scenario in my 30's, is/was a lot different than the OP's case who is just now looking to build a base.
As I aged and got distracted my ability to jump in and "just do it" faded. Because I became unfit. Got heavy. Because I lost the base.Running is not that complicated. Just do it. Nike and such...
None of the good advice being given is complicated. One just needs to get out and do it.
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He goes on to add:
"Athletes racing from 15K on up to the marathon receive the most benefit from tempo runs because the physiological adaptations are most specific to the demands of those races," he notes. "An improvement in lactate threshold is only a small benefit for a 5K race because that race is run well above lactate-threshold pace. Performance in races of 15K to the marathon, however, is determined primarily by the runner’s lactate-threshold pace." (Beck, 1999)
What page is that on? I have to re-read that because I find this hard to believe. LT pace can be maintained for an hour. A 5K for a good runner is well below an hour (20 minutes or less for a really good runner). So 5K pace should actually be quite below LT pace. Any race that takes you 50 minutes to an hour would be around your actual LT pace.
This is in Pace's article, I should apologize for poor notation. That second quote was from Pete Pfitzinger, the author of Advancing Marathoning.
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to the OP:
as you can see, asking for advice is a bit dangerous on an open forum such as this. My observation is that there are many ways to get where you want to go, so don't get hung up on being on the "right" road. Determine what your goal is and find a plan that you are comfortable with to get you there. I always suggest that novice runners get a book on running ( I used The Complete Book of Running, by Runner's World) It offers fantastic and easily understood advice geared for the beginner without complicating things with a bunch of clutter that is over the head of all but the dedicated running enthusiast.
It is funny that you say that. It seems like asking in an open forum allows for a quorum to form or for a person to hear all sides of the argument and make a decision. You also have to remember for every person that ask a question there are people out there with the same question but afraid to ask. Having these discussions helps them too. This is not 4chan where people get flamed or insulted for their opinions.0
This discussion has been closed.
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