Blaming individuals for obesity may be altogether wrong...
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annnnd... I've just been messaged that I need to shut up as I've never been overweight. Okay then.0
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Oh. One of those. Yea. No time for the games. Save the world yourself.
Will do! I'm on it! Hence why I'm going to Columbia's public health school next fall and studying the social determinants of health. I'm on it!
You go back to yelling at people on the boards because it makes you feel good about yourself.
Yea. You're 22. You will, or will not, eventually learn that the only people you can really help are the ones that want to be helped. I'm all very impressed with the fact that you're about to start a public health curriculum. Here's to hoping that you'll try and wind your way through all of the social science crap that you're about to be exposed to. If you want to start seeing real change then tell people the truth. Stop blaming sugar, fast food, mean people, and the rest of the other nonsense and start telling people that they have to eat less and exercise more. That's what so many of us on here are doing. And yes, I will continue to say the same thing, over and over again, "eat less and exercise more." Why? Because it works. Look around.
I'm not 22.
Throwing your hands up in the air and saying oh well helps no one.
I appreciate her attitude here a great deal more than I appreciate yours. It's people like Emma who effect actual change.
Come on now Johnnythan. Really? Do you know how many times you have posted content almost identical to Beachiron's post?
I'm talking about what we can do as a society to help lower obesity rates.
At an individual level, it's all about whether you have the motivation and willpower.
Three people I really like fighting their dukes out in a forum!
Someone get me some popcorn and Xanax!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://youtu.be/WQYsGWh_vpE 0 -
Societal and economic factors can shift the pressure on an individual, but cannot absolve him or her of personal responsibility.
I was fat, and it wasn't anyone's fault but mine.
Well said and right on. Same as me.0 -
Mandatory calorie content on all prepared food.
Mandate that insurance must cover nutritional counseling.
Mandatory health education at several grade levels.
End corn subsidies.
Those are just a few quick hits off the top of my head. It boils down to the individual but there are things we can do to decrease obesity rates.
Interesting. I would submit that every single one of those things could happen tommorow and it would have no effect.
Health education early on might have some influence. Curious if anyone has stats on the introduction of sex education and the decline of teenage pregancies? (not meant to be sarcastic)
What is line of thinking for the corn subsidies?
I agree. And I think, in the US, in my experience, 1, 2 and 3 are already in place.
Any packaged food is labeled. Any fast food is labeled or the data is easily available - on request or on the website.
Maybe you have REALLY crappy insurance that won't cover it, but all of mine for 15 years have (3 different companies). Just a normal referral.
My kids have had a mandatory health class that covers healthy eating and food prep from kindergarten on up (I'm only aware as far as 9th grade so far). I can't imagine that my state is particularly progressive in this area.
I agree with 4 - mostly from an "ethanol is wasteful" and a general distaste for government influence on free markets perspective - but I doubt it would really make a difference for anything short of the resulting tax burden.
^ This. But here is the thing. We live in the real world. And in the real world we have corn lobbies, Congress taxes, PTAs, public school districts, health insurance companies, and now the obese is awesome groups.
Don't get me wrong. I want very badly to see change. And no, I'm not being cynical. My aunt just finished up a very long career in and out of the pubic sector on these exact issues. It's hard. She was instrumental in getting the "Five a Day" program started while at the NIH. She's an awesome woman and did a lot of good, and I frankly hope Emma will alway be very successful in her career. My point is that we need to speak the truth to people. Stop lying to them. Stop finding new excuses. I'm pretty sure that we agree on a lot of the main points here. But hoping against hope that the entire system is going to change overnight is a fantasy. Work hard. Do good. But deal with the reality you're given.0 -
annnnd... I've just been messaged that I need to shut up as I've never been overweight. Okay then.
gimme a name.0 -
Work hard. Do good. But deal with the reality you're given.
Ok. Well this right here sums up what I think happens to us as we get older and sick and tired of all the BS. It's something activists in general are really familiar with. The younger folks call it selling out, the older folks call it burning out. You put your energy where you can.
Johnny's statements are true- I think we know they are. Our society has some unhealthy habits and that is due in large part to lobbies that BeachIron just mentioned. Emma is in the early stages of life (what I like to talk "fresh blood") ready to take up the burden of trying to change the world. We all been there. I wish her luck too.
But I see where Beach Iron is coming from. That feeling that we aren't going to reclose the floodgates that have already released this monstrous way of life into being... but we can work as individuals in our capacity as the rules in our own lives to make changes for ourselves.0 -
Work hard. Do good. But deal with the reality you're given.
Ok. Well this right here sums up what I think happens to us as we get older and sick and tired of all the BS. It's something activists in general are really familiar with. The younger folks call it selling out, the older folks call it burning out. You put your energy where you can.
Johnny's statements are true- I think we know they are. Our society has some unhealthy habits and that is due in large part to lobbies that BeachIron just mentioned. Emma is in the early stages of life (what I like to talk "fresh blood") ready to take up the burden of trying to change the world. We all been there. I wish her luck too.
But I see where Beach Iron is coming from. That feeling that we aren't going to reclose the floodgates that have already released this monstrous way of life into being... but we can work as individuals in our capacity as the rules in our own lives to make changes for ourselves.
Impressively diplomatic.0 -
bump.0
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doesn't D.C. stand for "Doctors of Chiropractic"?
"Doctors of Chiropractic" = not real doctors.
:laugh:0 -
Work hard. Do good. But deal with the reality you're given.
Ok. Well this right here sums up what I think happens to us as we get older and sick and tired of all the BS. It's something activists in general are really familiar with. The younger folks call it selling out, the older folks call it burning out. You put your energy where you can.
Johnny's statements are true- I think we know they are. Our society has some unhealthy habits and that is due in large part to lobbies that BeachIron just mentioned. Emma is in the early stages of life (what I like to talk "fresh blood") ready to take up the burden of trying to change the world. We all been there. I wish her luck too.
But I see where Beach Iron is coming from. That feeling that we aren't going to reclose the floodgates that have already released this monstrous way of life into being... but we can work as individuals in our capacity as the rules in our own lives to make changes for ourselves.
I usually stay out of these discussions, because I don't live in the US, and many of them tend to be US-centric (ie corn subsidies etc), but I don't think BeachIron is "burning out". I think he is being pragmatic. I didn't get the impression that he thinks anyone should just roll over and let things continue as is, but rather, that there is an existing framework in place and working within the existing framework is the only way it's going to happen. You can't just smash down opinions - you have to chip away at them. That's being smart.
Look at how long myths about health linger. People still think spinach is incredibly rich in iron because of a typo and because of a cartoon. How many times have all of us disputed myths and broscience on these boards ourselves, only to have others attempt to dismiss us?
We are lucky enough to live in an age where information travels around the world in moments, but misinformation does the same. Being right is never a guarantee that you'll be heard.
I'm glad that there are people who keep fighting, and I'm glad that we see small victories, but effective changes take time. They always have.
Now, I will disappear back to the tundra, from whence I came. It is the way of my people. 0 -
Well, I know that I am fat because I ate too much of the wrong food and exercised too little or not at all. I was always very, very thin as a child and as a young adult because I ate a reasonable amount of food and didn't know how to drive so biked and walked everywhere.
I think it is strictly about what and how much you eat and how much you move or don't move. Most people are not honest with themselves or anyone else about how much they really eat. If you aren't measuring and logging every bite that goes into your mouth, you are almost certainly eating much more than you think.
We may all want there to be a genetic cause or some other wonderful excuse for why we are fat, but I think that is pure fantasy.0 -
I'm talking about what we can do as a society to help lower obesity rates.
At an individual level, it's all about whether you have the motivation and willpower.
And, as I think has been mentioned, but just to underscore the point, knowledge. Information, there is a plenty - most of it geared to exploit people who are vulnerable because of insufficient critical skills or the fact of already having been poisoned by marketing crap (i.e., too many women). & critical thinking skills are unequally distributed by nature; the onus is on society (education; non-fraudulent or misleading marketing) to even it out.
For economic reasons, even, not out of the goodness of our hearts (also unequally distributed).
team public health0 -
Well, I know that I am fat because I ate too much of the wrong food and exercised too little or not at all. I was always very, very thin as a child and as a young adult because I ate a reasonable amount of food and didn't know how to drive so biked and walked everywhere.
I think it is strictly about what and how much you eat and how much you move or don't move. Most people are not honest with themselves or anyone else about how much they really eat. If you aren't measuring and logging every bite that goes into your mouth, you are almost certainly eating much more than you think.
We may all want there to be a genetic cause or some other wonderful excuse for why we are fat, but I think that is pure fantasy.
Fantasy? you CAN control obesity but can you cure it? There is so much evidence that where our ancestors came from, how they adapted to manage, and where we live today their environment, and where we live today all combine to have a huge impact on our health.
It's not just the presence of a specific genetic variation that can affect our body chemistry, it's how many times that gene occurs in our genome. It's quantity and quality.0 -
annnnd... I've just been messaged that I need to shut up as I've never been overweight. Okay then.
gimme a name.
Ohhhh...thank you!!! You're awesome, truly. I've gotten used to ignoring and deleting. A few of my friends deal with it almost daily also, we're trying not to let it affect us. I would love to gain muscle as easily as most of you do, it's hard for me but I will not give up.
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annnnd... I've just been messaged that I need to shut up as I've never been overweight. Okay then.
gimme a name.
Ohhhh...thank you!!! You're awesome, truly. I've gotten used to ignoring and deleting. A few of my friends deal with it almost daily also, we're trying not to let it affect us. I would love to gain muscle as easily as most of you do, it's hard for me but I will not give up.
What a rough life you lead.
Keep fighting the good fight!
:yawn:0 -
I say nothing, I don't see it as a societal issue.
Take a look at health care costs associated with obesity-related diseases like diabetes, high cholesterol, and high blood pressure.
Now take a look at how much the US spends per person per year on health care.
Now take a look at your insurance premiums.
It is a societal issue. We literally all share the costs.
^THIS
If you are so self-absorbed that you don't care a bit about the welfare of others, then care about how much money the govt is spending on healthcare for preventable disease. I mean, the govt also spends ludicrous amounts on defense but that's another conversation completely.
Actually, I get a break on my healthcare costs because we have a health analytics incentive at work. Pretty sweet. I actually get money back in my paycheck for taking care of myself. Call it self absorption if you like, but I'm doing it for me and my family, and getting rewarded for it at the same time.
It's not that I don't care, and call it self absorption again if you like, but everyone and their mother has the same opportunity to watch their weight as I do.
But you're right, it's society's fault for stuffing the cheap high calorie foods down my throat.....oh wait, that's right I have a choice to do it in moderation. Weird stuff.0 -
But you're right, it's society's fault
That's pretty much the exact opposite of what both of us said. Keep trollin bro.0 -
Oh. One of those. Yea. No time for the games. Save the world yourself.
Will do! I'm on it! Hence why I'm going to Columbia's public health school next fall and studying the social determinants of health. I'm on it!
And scene.
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But you're right, it's society's fault
That's pretty much the exact opposite of what both of us said. Keep trollin bro.
Ya, no. That's pretty much what you've been saying. It's too easy to get the food, and society isn't doing anything to help.
Anyway...you're pretty set here, have fun with your thread and telling everyone to point the finger out instead of back in.0 -
:laugh: I'm pretty sure it could say "Mickey Mouse, D.C." was the author, and some people would still buy it and say "Oh, I knew it wasn't the 8000 calories of fried food, sugar and saturated fat a day I've been eating....its not MY fault" :huh:
doesn't D.C. stand for "Doctors of Chiropractic"?
"Doctors of Chiropractic" = not real doctors.
:laugh:0 -
I've enjoyed reading everyone opinions on here, and we can talk about genetics, chemicals in in our food/ the environment, and McDonalds all we want, but it doesn't change the fact that each individual is responsible for their own body. I'm not saying those things aren't factors, but the main factor will always be daily caloric intake against caloric expenditure. If these new environmental factors were main causes then everyone would be overweight. Since they aren't I have to believe they aren't the main culprits. Their existance may make it easier for some to gain weight, and it may be making it harder for any of us to lose it once we've gained it, but not impossible.
When I joined MFP I decided I would eat as I normally do for a week and see just how far off I was from losing weight. Before I joined I thought I was going "ok" and probably just needed to exercise a little more. I couldn't have been more wrong. 2200-2500 calories during the week and 3000+ a day on the weekends. At 225 pounds I should have been eating 1580 a day to lose two pounds a week. So basically what I thought was "dieting" through the week was actually eating at or a little above maintenance and any gains I may have had during the week were blown on the weekends.
So now I eat less and exercise more and the weight has come off. 30 pounds worth.0 -
Here's a little blurb on this topic I just wrote to a friend I was having a similar conversation with:
You've also never been fat! It is something I've been thinking about from a public health perspective more and more, though. One of the things I've been considering lately is that the public health aspects of increasing population obesity are very counter to how an individual should think about things. People are getting fatter because it's becoming easier, cheaper, tastier, and more convenient to get loads of calories. So, from a societal perspective, we can point to fast food, sugar, etc. as the causes for obesity rates. However, from an individual perspective, fast food, sugar, etc. don't cause obesity. Overeating is what causes obesity. The answer for an individual to lose weight is to eat less (and ideally exercise more, though that's not a requirement for weight loss). Fast food and sugar and refined carbs and the other little nutrition hobgoblins make it easier to overeat, but the answer is not to eliminate all the hobgoblins. It's to eliminate the actual cause, which is overeating.
So by demonizing the things that contribute to obesity rates in society, we focus attention on the wrong things for the overweight individual and basically set them up for massive failure.0 -
Interesting read, I don't think anyone is denying there are multiple factors involved in the increased weight of the nation but to many people are going to look at that a go 'great I knew it wasn't my fault' and shift the blame,
Stress, poor sleep, exposure to fast food advertising, living in a household with poor eating habits - I have all of those things to deal with as well yet I CHOOSE to watch what it eat and work my *kitten* off at the gym 4 days per week.
I accept that they are factors but to suggest they are bigger factors than tHe lifestyle an individual has chosen for them selves is the only thing that is 'hilarious'
Please stop with the 'oh if it were that easy everyone would be thin nonsense' news flash for ya, it's not meant to be easy. Cooking an preparing food, counting macros, lifting weights every week no matter rain or shine or how tired your feel or how busy you are, it's not 'easy' but that's what separates people who actually want it and people who think they want it but would rather find excuses
Take some responsibilityAnd in regards to the article, there actually has been a lot of reseach done that looks at microbacteria in the intestines of obese people and "normal" sized people and there is a difference. I do think that there are some interesting ideas for environmental causes that could overall shift our likelihood of obesity.
Do these differences exist from birth or are they in fact a result of being obese?
Yes, yes. Everyone gets your point. It's been said a billion times. You can lose weight despite adversity. Hooray for you! But not everyone is like you or has the same things to overcome. You're genetically unique with your own unique environment. Saying "I can do it and so can you!" is a pretty weak argument. However, yes, the basics do work well for most people in the short term. The key really is keeping off the weight.
this is where we fundamentally disagree. I am not genetically unique and outside of medical conditions, neither are you.
I have been in the gym I would estimate 4-5 hours per week every week for last 3-4 years, that's over 1000 hours of intense exercise.
Are you really trying to tell me the reason i'm in ok shape and another person is overweight is genetics?
Hard work triumphs over genetics. every. single. time. (again outside of medical issues etc)
Again, are these differences there from birth are are they the result of being overweight/an unhealthy lifestyle? If it's the latter, then your point is really irrelevant.0 -
Here's a little blurb on this topic I just wrote to a friend I was having a similar conversation with:
You've also never been fat! It is something I've been thinking about from a public health perspective more and more, though. One of the things I've been considering lately is that the public health aspects of increasing population obesity are very counter to how an individual should think about things. People are getting fatter because it's becoming easier, cheaper, tastier, and more convenient to get loads of calories. So, from a societal perspective, we can point to fast food, sugar, etc. as the causes for obesity rates. However, from an individual perspective, fast food, sugar, etc. don't cause obesity. Overeating is what causes obesity. The answer for an individual to lose weight is to eat less (and ideally exercise more, though that's not a requirement for weight loss). Fast food and sugar and refined carbs and the other little nutrition hobgoblins make it easier to overeat, but the answer is not to eliminate all the hobgoblins. It's to eliminate the actual cause, which is overeating.
So by demonizing the things that contribute to obesity rates in society, we focus attention on the wrong things for the overweight individual and basically set them up for massive failure.
This is a very good point. People hear about larger causes (still causes, though; will argue that 'eating too much' is still both an individual & social artefact) and freak out because they sound like 'excuses', and seeing them this way can make the task of psyching yourself up for calorie monitoring, etc. more difficult. I agree with you, people need to focus on what they have to do *for themselves*.
But, sometimes, people get discouraged, if they find themselves overwhelmed by the combo of their metabolism + societal cues etc. - one vulnerable moment, & they find themselves overeating. And they blame themselves for it, rather than those other powerful forces. And maybe they give up altogether, or punish themselves with lower calorie goals than makes sense for them.
When that happens, I think, it might help to 1) remember that it's a tough battle to fight; 2) logically analyze the variables contributing to a 'binge' (vs get emotional about it, which is what people do), and 3) build up more armour (i.e., refine knowledge; seek info & support here, for example, re preventing the state of vulnerability in the first place - because collectively the hacks here for that are really a great arsenal).
e.g. "no, it's not all my fault that I ate too much - it's not because I'm 'weak' and doomed to failure. I am strong! But I need to arm myself better".
Another reason it's useful for people to stay on top of the larger contributing factors is, it might politicize them, a bit, at least to the extent that they might write a letter to a company or public representative, or spread further awareness so more people call for e.g. fair listing of nutritional content, etc etc. & in the longer term, if change happens as a result, this helps them, too.0
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