Fat shaming can kill?
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I wonder if the three co-authors are fat.0
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jennifer_417 wrote: »Yeah, them dying sooner couldn't have anything to do with their obesity...
Having said that, yes fat shaming is a thing, and yes it should stop.
I agree! And furthermore... fat shaming, thin shaming, bullying, bald shaming, gender shaming, persecution for belief systems, disability shaming. I'm sorry but no one can predict how soon or for what reasons a person will die. Death comes like a thief in the night. So if me and 250 other folks are on a plane and pilot happens to be over-weight and was discriminated against... should I be worried that he'll suffer a pre-mature death, and take all of us down with him or her? I don't think so. This world is too F-ing sensitive and politically correct. If I am obese chances are I have medical issues that I may or may not be aware of. That might kill me earlier or maybe not. It's *kitten* science and a *kitten* study. Everyone is discriminated against at some point for one reason or the other. Yes, the victim mentality has to stop. The "I'm overweight (or African American, or Chinese, or I wear glasses, or I stutter" feel bad for me and perpetuate my issues... it has to stop. If you're too fat and you feel shamed, that's your issue in your head. If you're too thin and you feel shamed, that's your issue in your own head. If you're in this life for yourself and you don't care what anyone else thinks, chances are you might live a long and fulfilling life. Or maybe not. Ugh... I am getting off track I know. I'm sick and tired of the obese vs. thin thing. I am not politically correct, I call it like I see it, people love me and hate me for that at the same time and I don't really give a *kitten* either way. As a result of this study I am sure people will run to their primary for meds... because they were shamed... and don't want to die prematurely. The doctors in their infinite wisdom will be more than happy to prescribe a pill to make them feel better rather than start a sensible nutritional plan and recommend a good therapist. The med will result in a side effect that will take another med to resolve. The person will ultimately die when they were supposed... you know, the grand plan... and in the meantime the government, medical industry and big pharma will have reaped benefits from the ripple effects of a study done in Florida of all places. I love Florida mind you but really? fast food nation speaks! aarrrrgghhhh.... don't mind me
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Parenting is associated with unhappiness. Married men live longer than single. Single women are healthier and live longer.0
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"In both samples, the researchers accounted for BMI, subjective health, disease burden, depressive symptoms, smoking history, and physical activity as indicators of mortality risk, but the association with weight discrimination remained."DeguelloTex wrote: »
Or the apparent effects of their mental state regarding their perception of supposed discrimination.Now they've found that people who report being subjected to weight discrimination also have a greater risk of dying. Not because they may be overweight, but because of the apparent effects of the discrimination.
Accounting for subjective health and depressive symptoms would mitigate some of the issues of perception, though obviously not clear it.0 -
"In both samples, the researchers accounted for BMI, subjective health, disease burden, depressive symptoms, smoking history, and physical activity as indicators of mortality risk, but the association with weight discrimination remained."DeguelloTex wrote: »
Or the apparent effects of their mental state regarding their perception of supposed discrimination.Now they've found that people who report being subjected to weight discrimination also have a greater risk of dying. Not because they may be overweight, but because of the apparent effects of the discrimination.
Accounting for subjective health and depressive symptoms would mitigate some of the issues of perception, though obviously not clear it.
Did they discount for socio-economic factors too?0 -
^ Okay, rabbitjb. I'll bite. The release does not say that they "discounted" for social and economic factors. Why? You think that with a group of 18,000 subjects, they only recruited the rich? Or only recruited the poor?0
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2 things:
1) Correlation != causation. People who lead unhealthy lifestyles die early. We know this.
2) The methodology of this "study" is a joke because it relies 100% on a questionnaire. Think about it: Who is more likely to claim that they've experienced "weight discrimination"? A person who was obese but took control of the situation and decided to live a healthy lifestyle, or someone who spent their lives looking for excuses? Which of these 2 groups are more likely to die early?
There's no science here, just a weak correlation based on bad, anecdotal evidence.
I'm a professionally trained researcher, and wouldn't use this "study" to line a birdcage.When people eat the same, weigh the same, and live the same, as much as that can be created from the data, those who are discriminated against die earlier.
No, it shows that those who claim to be discriminated against may be more likely to die earlier, which is not at all the same thing.0 -
^ Okay, rabbitjb. I'll bite. The release does not say that they "discounted" for social and economic factors. Why? You think that with a group of 18,000 subjects, they only recruited the rich? Or only recruited the poor?
I think that socio-economic factors play a huge part in morbidity rates
And also in obesity rates
I just find it interesting0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
How does being subjected to shame make you want to maintain the status for which you are being shamed? That sounds more like rationalization than causation.jennifer_417 wrote: »Look, most of us have experienced fat shaming, so we know it's bad. But at best, we're preaching to the choir, and at worst, we're promoting a victim mentality that that allows people to justify their obesity. Yeah, fat shaming does make people want to stay fat. It did me. But I made the choice to overcome that, and everyone else has that choice, too.
Most psychological studies on shame show it is appallingly poor at changing the behavior it targets. What it tends to do is drive people to hide the behavior from others.0 -
This study merely indicates that those who report remembering more instances of weight discrimination are more likely do die quicker. That doesn't explain why they recall more instances of weight discrimination. There could be a number of reasons why:
1) Because they actually do experience greater weight discrimination (e.g., so-called "fat shaming")
2) Because they tend to find instances of weight discrimination more salient, and therefore are more likely to recall them or focus on them
Memory isn't like a tape recorder, with the ability to make perfect, 1:1 copies of our experiences that occur around is. Memory is a reconstructive, subjective process, colored by our previous experiences and personalities. Without a "validity check," I'm not willing to make the leap that people who self-report more instances of so-called fat discrimination are in fact experiencing it. What we know is they are *reporting* it.
I would also trust this study more if the authors weren't so strident in their claims in the final couple of sentences of the article (and then citing their own research as partial support for their strident claims):
"There is a pervasive belief that shaming individuals for their weight motivates weight loss. The consequences of this mistaken belief are now clear: Growing evidence suggests that weight bias does not work (Sutin & Terracciano, 2013), it leads to greater morbidity (Sutin et al., 2015) and, now, greater mortality."
The reason why there's a "pervasive belief" that shame is a motivator for weight loss is probably because many of us (myself included), felt ashamed of being fat, so we lost weight. When so-called science so consistently doesn't comport with everyday experience, a closer look is required.
I would say that this kind of study requires further investigation. Would like to see controlled studies with lab experiments used, and if further self-report based studies are to be used as bases for the claim that "fat shaming doesn't work," there probably needs to be other covariates looked into, like personality factors, other psychiatric covariates, measures of self-focus, externalization vs. internalization, etc...
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If you check the study, the researchers accounted for BMI, subjective health, disease burden, depressive symptoms, smoking history, and physical activity as indicators of mortality risk.
I wouldn't overthink the study results too much. Their take-home point is pretty much that overt shaming and discrimination are associated with decreased satisfaction with life and increased chance of mortality. That's consistent with every study that's been done about the impact of stigma and discrimination.
It shouldn't be used as a basis for portraying overweight people as victims (but it will be). It's simply a reminder that treating people badly won't help them change, and being treated badly has negative long-term effects on health.
Exactly.
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^ Okay, rabbitjb. I'll bite. The release does not say that they "discounted" for social and economic factors. Why? You think that with a group of 18,000 subjects, they only recruited the rich? Or only recruited the poor?
I think that socio-economic factors play a huge part in morbidity rates
And also in obesity rates
I just find it interesting
She's right, you know.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
How does being subjected to shame make you want to maintain the status for which you are being shamed? That sounds more like rationalization than causation.jennifer_417 wrote: »Look, most of us have experienced fat shaming, so we know it's bad. But at best, we're preaching to the choir, and at worst, we're promoting a victim mentality that that allows people to justify their obesity. Yeah, fat shaming does make people want to stay fat. It did me. But I made the choice to overcome that, and everyone else has that choice, too.
That's kinda my point. Im talking about the victim menatlity, rationalization and self-justification. It's how I felt in reaction to being shamed. But I overcame it.0 -
xmichaelyx wrote: »2 things:
1) Correlation != causation. People who lead unhealthy lifestyles die early. We know this.
2) The methodology of this "study" is a joke because it relies 100% on a questionnaire. Think about it: Who is more likely to claim that they've experienced "weight discrimination"? A person who was obese but took control of the situation and decided to live a healthy lifestyle, or someone who spent their lives looking for excuses? Which of these 2 groups are more likely to die early?
There's no science here, just a weak correlation based on bad, anecdotal evidence.
I'm a professionally trained researcher, and wouldn't use this "study" to line a birdcage.When people eat the same, weigh the same, and live the same, as much as that can be created from the data, those who are discriminated against die earlier.
No, it shows that those who claim to be discriminated against may be more likely to die earlier, which is not at all the same thing.
1. Confounders were taken into account. It isn't perfect, but a statistically significant effect remains.
2. What does it matter if the person was actually discriminated against or merely felt it? How would you determine discrimination happened outside of the person's feelings of it?
Not sure what your area of research is, but if it is in the realm of psychology, you should already be aware of shame, excess stress, discrimination, and how they are not considered good for health.0 -
jennifer_417 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How does being subjected to shame make you want to maintain the status for which you are being shamed? That sounds more like rationalization than causation.jennifer_417 wrote: »Look, most of us have experienced fat shaming, so we know it's bad. But at best, we're preaching to the choir, and at worst, we're promoting a victim mentality that that allows people to justify their obesity. Yeah, fat shaming does make people want to stay fat. It did me. But I made the choice to overcome that, and everyone else has that choice, too.
That's kinda my point. Im talking about the victim menatlity, rationalization and self-justification. It's how I felt in reaction to being shamed. But I overcame it.
That's great for you, but again, we must consider various factors when looking at how resilient people tend to be. Those who have extensive support networks, access to healthy food, and opportunities to learn about weight control will have a higher chance of being able to "overcome" (I don't like the usage of this word in the scenario but I'm keeping it because I'm referencing your post) perceived weight shaming.
Perceived shaming can be just as powerful for the person as actual shaming. The effects can be as profound.
I also really hate the term "victim mentality". I think it sounds very cavalier for what we are talking about, which is a group of people who are profoundly affected by either perceived or real "fat-shaming".0 -
It's simply a reminder that treating people badly won't help them change, and being treated badly has negative long-term effects on health.
This! If all of these concern trolls (again, not pointing fingers at anyone here, but speaking generally about outspoken trolls) really wanted less fat people in the world, they would stop saying horrible things and taking joy from their misfortunes. The truth is some people just like being horrible and hurting others, and they hide behind the guise of health and "it'll save taxpayers money" to make fat people feel worse than they already do.0 -
gaelicstorm26 wrote: »jennifer_417 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How does being subjected to shame make you want to maintain the status for which you are being shamed? That sounds more like rationalization than causation.jennifer_417 wrote: »Look, most of us have experienced fat shaming, so we know it's bad. But at best, we're preaching to the choir, and at worst, we're promoting a victim mentality that that allows people to justify their obesity. Yeah, fat shaming does make people want to stay fat. It did me. But I made the choice to overcome that, and everyone else has that choice, too.
That's kinda my point. Im talking about the victim menatlity, rationalization and self-justification. It's how I felt in reaction to being shamed. But I overcame it.
That's great for you, but again, we must consider various factors when looking at how resilient people tend to be. Those who have extensive support networks, access to healthy food, and opportunities to learn about weight control will have a higher chance of being able to "overcome" (I don't like the usage of this word in the scenario but I'm keeping it because I'm referencing your post) perceived weight shaming.
Perceived shaming can be just as powerful for the person as actual shaming. The effects can be as profound.
I also really hate the term "victim mentality". I think it sounds very cavalier for what we are talking about, which is a group of people who are profoundly affected by either perceived or real "fat-shaming".
I'm not saying fat shaming isn't bad or painful. People really should stop doing, and i have compassion for those who have been or are going through it.
What I'm saying is, even when a person is a victim, they are still responsible for their own actions. I could tell you stories about being victimized that would mess up your whole day, but I'm still responsible for my own actions, and so is everyone else. It's not really compassion to say, "There, there, you're not responsible for your choices, 'cause that person was really mean to you."0 -
xmichaelyx wrote: »2 things:
1) Correlation != causation. People who lead unhealthy lifestyles die early. We know this.
2) The methodology of this "study" is a joke because it relies 100% on a questionnaire. Think about it: Who is more likely to claim that they've experienced "weight discrimination"? A person who was obese but took control of the situation and decided to live a healthy lifestyle, or someone who spent their lives looking for excuses? Which of these 2 groups are more likely to die early?
There's no science here, just a weak correlation based on bad, anecdotal evidence.
I'm a professionally trained researcher, and wouldn't use this "study" to line a birdcage.When people eat the same, weigh the same, and live the same, as much as that can be created from the data, those who are discriminated against die earlier.
No, it shows that those who claim to be discriminated against may be more likely to die earlier, which is not at all the same thing.
1. Confounders were taken into account. It isn't perfect, but a statistically significant effect remains.
2. What does it matter if the person was actually discriminated against or merely felt it? How would you determine discrimination happened outside of the person's feelings of it?
Not sure what your area of research is, but if it is in the realm of psychology, you should already be aware of shame, excess stress, discrimination, and how they are not considered good for health.
Basically, the study authors used self-report of weight discrimination as a proxy for actual weight discrimination, controlled for what they could control for (because self-report is by it's nature very subjective and can be contaminated by any number of factors), and then at the end declared that weight discrimination makes you die quicker, in very strident terms, by the end of the article.
The problem with this study is there is any number of factors that could be contaminating why these subjects self-reported weight discrimination more than others, and they ended up examining very, very few. We could generate a fairly endless number of very legitimate covariates they would need to partial out of their model of "weight discrimination => increased mortality" data they say is supported here.
So, we're left with a few possibilities:
* People who self-report more weight discrimination ARE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING more weight discrimination, all other things being equal. More weight discrimination leads these subjects to die quicker (due to stress, I suppose) rather than losing weight and getting healthier.
* People who self-report more weight discrimination AREN'T actually experiencing more weight discrimination, but they report they experience it more, possibly because they find whatever experiences they have had to be more salient, therefore they over-estimate the frequency and degree to which they've experienced said discrimination. Reasons for this could be personality factors, other psychiatric factors.
* People who self-report more weight discrimination ARE actually experiencing more weight discrimination, but they experience it due to their propensity to put themselves in more contentious social situations. Perhaps they're social justice warriors or HAES activitists (who knows). Either way, they experience more discrimination as a consequence of their own need to have conflicts with others.
Possibly there are other explanations. I'm just thinking out loud here.
Best thing would be to have some lab studies that show this effect (e.g., that fat shaming leads to increases in health risks). That way we wouldn't have to depend on self-report studies.0 -
jennifer_417 wrote: »gaelicstorm26 wrote: »jennifer_417 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How does being subjected to shame make you want to maintain the status for which you are being shamed? That sounds more like rationalization than causation.jennifer_417 wrote: »Look, most of us have experienced fat shaming, so we know it's bad. But at best, we're preaching to the choir, and at worst, we're promoting a victim mentality that that allows people to justify their obesity. Yeah, fat shaming does make people want to stay fat. It did me. But I made the choice to overcome that, and everyone else has that choice, too.
That's kinda my point. Im talking about the victim menatlity, rationalization and self-justification. It's how I felt in reaction to being shamed. But I overcame it.
That's great for you, but again, we must consider various factors when looking at how resilient people tend to be. Those who have extensive support networks, access to healthy food, and opportunities to learn about weight control will have a higher chance of being able to "overcome" (I don't like the usage of this word in the scenario but I'm keeping it because I'm referencing your post) perceived weight shaming.
Perceived shaming can be just as powerful for the person as actual shaming. The effects can be as profound.
I also really hate the term "victim mentality". I think it sounds very cavalier for what we are talking about, which is a group of people who are profoundly affected by either perceived or real "fat-shaming".
I'm not saying fat shaming isn't bad or painful. People really should stop doing, and i have compassion for those who have been or are going through it.
What I'm saying is, even when a person is a victim, they are still responsible for their own actions. I could tell you stories about being victimized that would mess up your whole day, but I'm still responsible for my own actions, and so is everyone else. It's not really compassion to say, "There, there, you're not responsible for your choices, 'cause that person was really mean to you."
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