I can't do a freaking squat
Replies
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You want them inline with your feet in the direction of your toes, but they don't have to stay behind your toes. That's just proportions.0
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Learned something today! Thanks to @ninerbuff @LolBroScience and @SideSteel (and others). My squat form has been okay, but I'm working on teaching my teenagers lift, and it's good to know what to watch for and what is okay.
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Preventing the knees from going past the toes requires you to push your hips back further. Depending on segment lengths it may require you to push your hips back quite a bit further.
You are exchanging forces on the knee for forces on the low back.
Whether or not this is a good idea is going to depend on the individual.
For me, it's a very, very bad idea.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Nice article from Bret Contreras on bodyweight squats to help form.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/tip-do-a-deep-bodyweight-squat-daily
I need to work on that range of motion0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Nice article from Bret Contreras on bodyweight squats to help form.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/tip-do-a-deep-bodyweight-squat-daily
I need to work on that range of motion
Frequent, light goblet squats also seem to help a ton.0 -
Thanks SS ..I will add them in0
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Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »Not arguing this point.
If you squat heavy at all, and let your knees go way past your toes, you're asking for trouble. There may be people where it's anatomically not possible, but I think that's not nearly as common as some of you are making it sound.
I can squat with poor form (with my knees going way out past my toes) in both front and back squat, and I can squat with good form (where they do not). It has nothing to do with human Kinesiology, it has to do with how well I hinge my hips, keep a strong core, and control my descent (i.e. all of the above).
When I use what I call poor form, I can definitely feel it in my knees afterwards.
Would you say the same for front squatting?
Why or why not?
Not sure the question, but, with poor form my knees can go well past my toes on both a front and back squat. In either position, if your first movement is your knees going forward, I think you're going to have a problem unless it's followed real close with a good hip hinge.0 -
Preventing the knees from going past the toes requires you to push your hips back further. Depending on segment lengths it may require you to push your hips back quite a bit further.
You are exchanging forces on the knee for forces on the low back.
Whether or not this is a good idea is going to depend on the individual.
For me, it's a very, very bad idea.
I'd say the opposite. I think it's more than your lower back fighting the force of the bar - it's your core, lower back, lats, etc. I'll take the force there as opposed to my knees every time.
As mentioned as well, poor mobility in the ankles and hips is going to make it hard for someone to hinge properly and then yes, they may have knees forced over toes, but to me that's a mobility issue, not a bone length issue.
If we're talking front squats, on top of ankles and hips, poor mobility in the shoulders (and wrists to a lesser degree) is going to keep most people from having any type of good form since they're probably not able to get into a good rack position, and without that, they're going to be standing straight up and down and knees are bound to go forward (at least with any type of heavier weight).0 -
Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »Preventing the knees from going past the toes requires you to push your hips back further. Depending on segment lengths it may require you to push your hips back quite a bit further.
You are exchanging forces on the knee for forces on the low back.
Whether or not this is a good idea is going to depend on the individual.
For me, it's a very, very bad idea.
I'd say the opposite. I think it's more than your lower back fighting the force of the bar - it's your core, lower back, lats, etc. I'll take the force there as opposed to my knees every time.
As mentioned as well, poor mobility in the ankles and hips is going to make it hard for someone to hinge properly and then yes, they may have knees forced over toes, but to me that's a mobility issue, not a bone length issue.
If we're talking front squats, on top of ankles and hips, poor mobility in the shoulders (and wrists to a lesser degree) is going to keep most people from having any type of good form since they're probably not able to get into a good rack position, and without that, they're going to be standing straight up and down and knees are bound to go forward (at least with any type of heavier weight).
How many front squatters have you seen who can squat heavy and keep the knees behind the toes?
You're aware that the barbell needs to be over the midfoot and that torso positions in the front squat are quite upright to prevent the bar from rolling off?
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Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »Preventing the knees from going past the toes requires you to push your hips back further. Depending on segment lengths it may require you to push your hips back quite a bit further.
You are exchanging forces on the knee for forces on the low back.
Whether or not this is a good idea is going to depend on the individual.
For me, it's a very, very bad idea.
I'd say the opposite. I think it's more than your lower back fighting the force of the bar - it's your core, lower back, lats, etc. I'll take the force there as opposed to my knees every time.
As mentioned as well, poor mobility in the ankles and hips is going to make it hard for someone to hinge properly and then yes, they may have knees forced over toes, but to me that's a mobility issue, not a bone length issue.
If we're talking front squats, on top of ankles and hips, poor mobility in the shoulders (and wrists to a lesser degree) is going to keep most people from having any type of good form since they're probably not able to get into a good rack position, and without that, they're going to be standing straight up and down and knees are bound to go forward (at least with any type of heavier weight).
I would be so curious to see videos of your "good form"....0 -
Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »Preventing the knees from going past the toes requires you to push your hips back further. Depending on segment lengths it may require you to push your hips back quite a bit further.
You are exchanging forces on the knee for forces on the low back.
Whether or not this is a good idea is going to depend on the individual.
For me, it's a very, very bad idea.
I'd say the opposite. I think it's more than your lower back fighting the force of the bar - it's your core, lower back, lats, etc. I'll take the force there as opposed to my knees every time.
As mentioned as well, poor mobility in the ankles and hips is going to make it hard for someone to hinge properly and then yes, they may have knees forced over toes, but to me that's a mobility issue, not a bone length issue.
If we're talking front squats, on top of ankles and hips, poor mobility in the shoulders (and wrists to a lesser degree) is going to keep most people from having any type of good form since they're probably not able to get into a good rack position, and without that, they're going to be standing straight up and down and knees are bound to go forward (at least with any type of heavier weight).
How many front squatters have you seen who can squat heavy and keep the knees behind the toes?
You're aware that the barbell needs to be over the midfoot and that torso positions in the front squat are quite upright to prevent the bar from rolling off?
Due to the core and back strength required, along with pain (wrists) if you don't have good mobility, not all that many. That's the point.
Also, I didn't say knees behind toes, I said knees should not go way past toes if you wanted to avoid knee problems.Ankle and hip mobility can really hurt your squat form. I'm not getting into the whole knees over toes thing. Say what you want, but if your knees are going way past your toes (with or without your heals coming up) you are asking for knee problems. Granted there may be some people who do to length of bones, etc. just can't do it, but I'm guessing most people whose knees go (well) past their toes have a form issue.
If you're one of the few not built to do this, or can't, then maybe it's not the best exercise for you. Or just don't worry about your knees.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »Preventing the knees from going past the toes requires you to push your hips back further. Depending on segment lengths it may require you to push your hips back quite a bit further.
You are exchanging forces on the knee for forces on the low back.
Whether or not this is a good idea is going to depend on the individual.
For me, it's a very, very bad idea.
I'd say the opposite. I think it's more than your lower back fighting the force of the bar - it's your core, lower back, lats, etc. I'll take the force there as opposed to my knees every time.
As mentioned as well, poor mobility in the ankles and hips is going to make it hard for someone to hinge properly and then yes, they may have knees forced over toes, but to me that's a mobility issue, not a bone length issue.
If we're talking front squats, on top of ankles and hips, poor mobility in the shoulders (and wrists to a lesser degree) is going to keep most people from having any type of good form since they're probably not able to get into a good rack position, and without that, they're going to be standing straight up and down and knees are bound to go forward (at least with any type of heavier weight).
I would be so curious to see videos of your "good form"....
I'll bet. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I know when my knees are going too far over my toes and when they are not. I work on it every time I squat, clean, or do similar movement.0 -
My knees always go slightly past my toes and never once had knee issues except the one time an uneducated cardio instructor corrected my squat form in step class telling me I should never let my knees pass my toes. I stupidly tried that for a few heavy sets later that day and ouch instant knee pain so I went back to my old form.0
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Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »Preventing the knees from going past the toes requires you to push your hips back further. Depending on segment lengths it may require you to push your hips back quite a bit further.
You are exchanging forces on the knee for forces on the low back.
Whether or not this is a good idea is going to depend on the individual.
For me, it's a very, very bad idea.
I'd say the opposite. I think it's more than your lower back fighting the force of the bar - it's your core, lower back, lats, etc. I'll take the force there as opposed to my knees every time.
As mentioned as well, poor mobility in the ankles and hips is going to make it hard for someone to hinge properly and then yes, they may have knees forced over toes, but to me that's a mobility issue, not a bone length issue.
If we're talking front squats, on top of ankles and hips, poor mobility in the shoulders (and wrists to a lesser degree) is going to keep most people from having any type of good form since they're probably not able to get into a good rack position, and without that, they're going to be standing straight up and down and knees are bound to go forward (at least with any type of heavier weight).
I would be so curious to see videos of your "good form"....
I'll bet. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I know when my knees are going too far over my toes and when they are not. I work on it every time I squat, clean, or do similar movement.
No, but seriously... I'd like to see video of what you are determining to be "good squat form" with no knee travel over toes, even if it isn't you performing it. I'm honestly mind blown right now. Unless, you're just doing a poor job of describing the degree of distance the knee is traveleling over the toes.0 -
"Way" is way too subjective of a term for this conversation. Also, I just keep thinking
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LolBroScience wrote: »Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »Preventing the knees from going past the toes requires you to push your hips back further. Depending on segment lengths it may require you to push your hips back quite a bit further.
You are exchanging forces on the knee for forces on the low back.
Whether or not this is a good idea is going to depend on the individual.
For me, it's a very, very bad idea.
I'd say the opposite. I think it's more than your lower back fighting the force of the bar - it's your core, lower back, lats, etc. I'll take the force there as opposed to my knees every time.
As mentioned as well, poor mobility in the ankles and hips is going to make it hard for someone to hinge properly and then yes, they may have knees forced over toes, but to me that's a mobility issue, not a bone length issue.
If we're talking front squats, on top of ankles and hips, poor mobility in the shoulders (and wrists to a lesser degree) is going to keep most people from having any type of good form since they're probably not able to get into a good rack position, and without that, they're going to be standing straight up and down and knees are bound to go forward (at least with any type of heavier weight).
I would be so curious to see videos of your "good form"....
I'll bet. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I know when my knees are going too far over my toes and when they are not. I work on it every time I squat, clean, or do similar movement.
No, but seriously... I'd like to see video of what you are determining to be "good squat form" with no knee travel over toes, even if it isn't you performing it. I'm honestly mind blown right now. Unless, you're just doing a poor job of describing the degree of distance the knee is traveleling over the toes.
would be curious to see this also ….0 -
Stick your butt way out. If it feels like it's sticking out too much, or ya feel like you look silly, then you're probably doing it right.0
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LolBroScience wrote: »Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »Preventing the knees from going past the toes requires you to push your hips back further. Depending on segment lengths it may require you to push your hips back quite a bit further.
You are exchanging forces on the knee for forces on the low back.
Whether or not this is a good idea is going to depend on the individual.
For me, it's a very, very bad idea.
I'd say the opposite. I think it's more than your lower back fighting the force of the bar - it's your core, lower back, lats, etc. I'll take the force there as opposed to my knees every time.
As mentioned as well, poor mobility in the ankles and hips is going to make it hard for someone to hinge properly and then yes, they may have knees forced over toes, but to me that's a mobility issue, not a bone length issue.
If we're talking front squats, on top of ankles and hips, poor mobility in the shoulders (and wrists to a lesser degree) is going to keep most people from having any type of good form since they're probably not able to get into a good rack position, and without that, they're going to be standing straight up and down and knees are bound to go forward (at least with any type of heavier weight).
I would be so curious to see videos of your "good form"....
I'll bet. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I know when my knees are going too far over my toes and when they are not. I work on it every time I squat, clean, or do similar movement.
No, but seriously... I'd like to see video of what you are determining to be "good squat form" with no knee travel over toes, even if it isn't you performing it. I'm honestly mind blown right now. Unless, you're just doing a poor job of describing the degree of distance the knee is traveleling over the toes.
would be curious to see this also ….
I took a quick look out on You Tube, I'd consider what you see here good form, and for the most part good advice on set-up and execution -
https://youtu.be/tlfahNdNPPI
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Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »Preventing the knees from going past the toes requires you to push your hips back further. Depending on segment lengths it may require you to push your hips back quite a bit further.
You are exchanging forces on the knee for forces on the low back.
Whether or not this is a good idea is going to depend on the individual.
For me, it's a very, very bad idea.
I'd say the opposite. I think it's more than your lower back fighting the force of the bar - it's your core, lower back, lats, etc. I'll take the force there as opposed to my knees every time.
As mentioned as well, poor mobility in the ankles and hips is going to make it hard for someone to hinge properly and then yes, they may have knees forced over toes, but to me that's a mobility issue, not a bone length issue.
If we're talking front squats, on top of ankles and hips, poor mobility in the shoulders (and wrists to a lesser degree) is going to keep most people from having any type of good form since they're probably not able to get into a good rack position, and without that, they're going to be standing straight up and down and knees are bound to go forward (at least with any type of heavier weight).
I would be so curious to see videos of your "good form"....
I'll bet. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I know when my knees are going too far over my toes and when they are not. I work on it every time I squat, clean, or do similar movement.
No, but seriously... I'd like to see video of what you are determining to be "good squat form" with no knee travel over toes, even if it isn't you performing it. I'm honestly mind blown right now. Unless, you're just doing a poor job of describing the degree of distance the knee is traveleling over the toes.
would be curious to see this also ….
I took a quick look out on You Tube, I'd consider what you see here good form, and for the most part good advice on set-up and execution -https://youtu.be/tlfahNdNPPI
Thankyou!0 -
Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »Preventing the knees from going past the toes requires you to push your hips back further. Depending on segment lengths it may require you to push your hips back quite a bit further.
You are exchanging forces on the knee for forces on the low back.
Whether or not this is a good idea is going to depend on the individual.
For me, it's a very, very bad idea.
I'd say the opposite. I think it's more than your lower back fighting the force of the bar - it's your core, lower back, lats, etc. I'll take the force there as opposed to my knees every time.
As mentioned as well, poor mobility in the ankles and hips is going to make it hard for someone to hinge properly and then yes, they may have knees forced over toes, but to me that's a mobility issue, not a bone length issue.
If we're talking front squats, on top of ankles and hips, poor mobility in the shoulders (and wrists to a lesser degree) is going to keep most people from having any type of good form since they're probably not able to get into a good rack position, and without that, they're going to be standing straight up and down and knees are bound to go forward (at least with any type of heavier weight).
I would be so curious to see videos of your "good form"....
I'll bet. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I know when my knees are going too far over my toes and when they are not. I work on it every time I squat, clean, or do similar movement.
No, but seriously... I'd like to see video of what you are determining to be "good squat form" with no knee travel over toes, even if it isn't you performing it. I'm honestly mind blown right now. Unless, you're just doing a poor job of describing the degree of distance the knee is traveleling over the toes.
would be curious to see this also ….
I took a quick look out on You Tube, I'd consider what you see here good form, and for the most part good advice on set-up and execution -https://youtu.be/tlfahNdNPPI
Except his using something that is probably around 30% of his 1RM, with the path of the barbell behind his foot.... take a guess what would happen if that were a much heavier load.
I take it these are bad squats then right, since they break at the knees first and their knees track over toes?
https://youtu.be/fUZ_f3WgIlg
https://youtu.be/ErJ8eyyqWVE?t=40s0 -
First, good comment about the weight in the video I posted. I thought that it was a bit flaky that he was grunting and grounding despite having 135 tops on that bar. He didn't have to act like it was really heavy because it wasn't.
I wouldn't Squat the way he does in the first video. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying I'd be surprised if he didn't have knee problems at some point. I'm sure the knee wraps help keep everything in place in the short term though.
The second link only showed a single squat, and he just went past a touch. I wouldn't call that bad either, and far better in my book than the first. All the rest were snatches and stuff.
Maybe we should just agree there are a lot of different ways to squat. Bodybuilders are going to Squat different than power lifters and everyone will adapt a stance that works for them. In the first video, he is using a very narrow foot stance, and that's a whole topic we haven't even talked about.
For me, if my knees went out as far as his does in first link, I'd be limping around for days.
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Upstate_Dunadan wrote: »First, good comment about the weight in the video I posted. I thought that it was a bit flaky that he was grunting and grounding despite having 135 tops on that bar. He didn't have to act like it was really heavy because it wasn't.
I wouldn't Squat the way he does in the first video. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying I'd be surprised if he didn't have knee problems at some point. I'm sure the knee wraps help keep everything in place in the short term though.
The second link only showed a single squat, and he just went past a touch. I wouldn't call that bad either, and far better in my book than the first. All the rest were snatches and stuff.
Maybe we should just agree there are a lot of different ways to squat. Bodybuilders are going to Squat different than power lifters and everyone will adapt a stance that works for them. In the first video, he is using a very narrow foot stance, and that's a whole topic we haven't even talked about.
For me, if my knees went out as far as his does in first link, I'd be limping around for days.
Which is what we said.... in addition to the fact that individual limb lengths and such will impact biomechanics.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Nice article from Bret Contreras on bodyweight squats to help form.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/tip-do-a-deep-bodyweight-squat-daily
I need to work on that range of motion
Frequent, light goblet squats also seem to help a ton.
@sidesteel or anyone who knows
I need to keep my wrists neutral (bilateral tendonitis finally resolving after months and don't want to risk it) - any suggestions for those goblet squats? - getting a weight to that position I assume would involve more range of movement than I'm currently comfortable with.0 -
I'm afraid of hurting my back if I do squats, currently I do squats with no weight on a Bosu ball (standing on flat side) Hoping to build up to doing with weights0
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Packerjohn wrote: »Nice article from Bret Contreras on bodyweight squats to help form.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/tip-do-a-deep-bodyweight-squat-daily
I need to work on that range of motion
Frequent, light goblet squats also seem to help a ton.
@sidesteel or anyone who knows
I need to keep my wrists neutral (bilateral tendonitis finally resolving after months and don't want to risk it) - any suggestions for those goblet squats? - getting a weight to that position I assume would involve more range of movement than I'm currently comfortable with.
Plates straight off the squat rack?0 -
If you have poor hip flexibility (like I do) I find pointing your toes out a bit helps you be able to drop into that deep pocket.0
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Preventing the knees from going past the toes requires you to push your hips back further. Depending on segment lengths it may require you to push your hips back quite a bit further.
You are exchanging forces on the knee for forces on the low back.
Whether or not this is a good idea is going to depend on the individual.
For me, it's a very, very bad idea.
That, and center of mass. If doing that puts your center of mass behind your feet, you're going to fall over. Landing on your pelvis with hundreds of pounds resting on your back does not sound ilike fun.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Nice article from Bret Contreras on bodyweight squats to help form.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/tip-do-a-deep-bodyweight-squat-daily
I need to work on that range of motion
Frequent, light goblet squats also seem to help a ton.
sidesteel or anyone who knows
I need to keep my wrists neutral (bilateral tendonitis finally resolving after months and don't want to risk it) - any suggestions for those goblet squats? - getting a weight to that position I assume would involve more range of movement than I'm currently comfortable with.
@rabbit You might try really light zercher squats instead. Do you have access to a bar that is lighter than 45 lbs?0 -
drywall_painter wrote: »I'm afraid of hurting my back if I do squats, currently I do squats with no weight on a Bosu ball (standing on flat side) Hoping to build up to doing with weights
out of curiosity, how would one hurt ones back doing a barbell squat...?
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I used to have a really hard time with squats, but doing them on the smith machine at the gym really helped my form! Now I can finally do a good squat 0
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