December 2015 Running Challenge
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ceciliaslater wrote: »As a woman with PCOS (read: bound to low carb for life--minus the occasional pizzafest to keep me sane) 740g of carbs makes my brain hurt!
(Please don't take that as me trying to say don't carb load--I'm all for carbs for normal people. Carby carby carb load to your heart's content)
I have to wonder how carb loading would affect my race performance. I did two HMs last month in 2:10:54 and 2:10:58, respectively, on my normal low carb diet. I'm just not willing to try it due to the strong possibility of digestive upset...
Carb loading may help and there are so many factors that complicate on reasons to carb load and reasons to not carb load.
So it's all about your various energy systems.
So at the very basic level, it all comes down to ATP production to support muscle contraction.
So let's look at the basic muscle contraction. Stretch your arm out way in front of you then move your fist towards your shoulder to perform a basic arm curl. To perform this movement, your bicep muscle had to contract (shorten). The energy at the very basic molecular level is something called ATP (adenosine triphosphate). The nucleoside adenosine has 3 phosphate molecules attached to it. The bond that these 3 phosphates have to the adenosine has lots of potential energy. When your bicep muscle is commanded by your brain to contract, there is a chemical reation between the ATP and the muscle fiber that pulls the rest of the muscle group to enable this contraction. Basically, lots of energy is released in this chemical reaction because one of the phosphate atoms in ATP breaks apart turning the ATP into ADP (adenosine di-phosphate) and a lone phosphate atom. As long as the muscle fiber has a constant flow of ATP going to it, muscle contractions can continue.
Your muscle only has a certain amount of ATP. Actually, it only has enough ATP to supply enough energy to support about 6 seconds of constant movement. So in order to fuel the muscle long term, your body has to recycle the ADP and P to reform ATP. This requires a different energy source.
For immediate conversion, your body uses something called the creatine phosphate system to reform that ATP. It's a relatively simple and quick process that does not require oxygen (so it's anaerobic). But this system can only support ATP production for about 20 seconds of constant movement.
When energy is needed for longer than 20 seconds, a different anaerobic system called Glycolysis takes over. This system is also relatively simple and quick. This system will take glucose (simple sugar) from the blood (or sugar stored locally in the muscle called glycogen) and convert it to make more ATP. Although it's a quick process, it only creates about 2 molecules of ATP. The glucose is transformed into something called pyruvate.
If oxygen is present in the mitochondria of the muscle cell that just performed Glycolysis, then that pyruvate will get shuttled to the mitichondria where the aerobic processes (Krebs Cycle and Electron Transport Chain (ETC)) will convert the pyruvate into 32 ATP atoms and H20 and CO2. You end of breathing out the H2O and CO2.
If oxygen is not immediately available, then Glycolysis will have to complete the process by fermentation. This fermintation is needed to restore some of the coenzymes that we used to make the 2 ATP. Normally ETC will restore those coenzymes. The fermentation process will convert pyruvate into lactate. When lactate is produced, there is also positive charged Hydrogen atoms that don't get consumed (normally in the ETC process). These hydrogen atoms (H+) linger in the muscle and get's transported out through the blood along with the lactate. Other muscle cells could use lactate as a fuel source for aerobic metabolism which will consume the lactate and H+ as long as enough oxygen is present in the mitochondria of that muscle cell. Otherwise, the lactate makes it way down to the liver where the lactate and H+ are used to reproduce liver glycogen.
If you create such an energy demand where glycolysis has to work extra hard, then lacate and H+ build up in the muscle before it can be transported down to the liver. The H+ ions build up and lowers the pH level of the muscle cell which makes it very acidic. This is what contributes to the temporary burning sensation in your muscle when you overwork your muscle.
The muscle cell will also use fatty acids (and sometimes if necessary amino acids from protein) to use as fuel in the Krebs Cycle and ETC when it wants to preserve glucose. The brain will prioritze glucose for the brain since your brain depends upon glucose.
But when energy demands are too great, the body will rely more heavily on glucose than fatty acids. Fatty acids are released into the blood by breaking down fat deposits in your andipose cells when blood glucose levels reach a low.
Your body also has a way to convert those fatty acids to reproduce glycogen in the liver or glycogen in the muscle cell.
While you are running, you are using stored energy to reconvert all that ADP and P into ATP. The body is concentrating hard to supply just enough energy in the various fuel systems (creatine phosphate, glycolysis, Krebs cycle, ETC, lipolysis, ect. ect.) During this phase, your body is in a catabolic state.
At rest, your body is working hard to reconstruct those energy sources and your body is in an anabolic state.
So while your body is in an anobolic state, it can convert any energy source (carb, fat, protein) into glycogen so that later on it can fuel activity. The body prefers carbs tho for this purpose. But your body can only store so much glycogen. Luckily there is normally enough glycogen to support moderate activity for about 90 minutes without worrying about "bonking". The more that you can train your body to also rely on fatty acid conversion, the better you can preserve that glycogen.
The more intense your workout, the more it has to rely on glycogen. The less intense your workout, the more it can depend on fatty acids.
So if you can boost your glycogen stores some how, you would be able to go more intense for a longer period of time. This is the idea behind the carb load. During carb loading (if you do it correctly) your body can store extra glycogen for a temporary amount of time then it normally would. I wrote about this before and shared it with the group a couple months back.
http://therunningstan.blogspot.com/2015/11/my-marathon-taper-and-carb-loading.html
So make this long story short, for normal every day activity and even mild intense workouts, you won't benefit from carb loading and you won't see anything hurt by a low carb diet.
However, as you get more intense in your workouts and you begin to run for longer periods of time, you will then notice that your ability to feel energized will become hampered by the low carb diet.
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Sometimes I swear I am the most uneducated, unsophisticated runner ever ... lol... I don't have a heart-monitor, I have never done speed work or run a fartlek, or a lactate threshhold run or a tempo interval run or a recovery run. I don't anything about carb loading or specialty foods for long runs and my sports drink is water. I have to confess that I am not sure what half of those things are. I have never had my gait analyzed and never bought any shoes from a running shoe store. Hell, I can't even figure out what course I want to run or how far I am going to run until I am actually out the door... lol.. I read all these high-tech posts and I feel like a plodding, ignorant red-neck runner...
But I DO really like running shoes....0 -
MorningGhost14 wrote: »Sometimes I swear I am the most uneducated, unsophisticated runner ever ... lol... I don't have a heart-monitor, I have never done speed work or run a fartlek, or a lactate threshhold run or a tempo interval run or a recovery run. I don't anything about carb loading or specialty foods for long runs and my sports drink is water. I have to confess that I am not sure what half of those things are. I have never had my gait analyzed and never bought any shoes from a running shoe store. Hell, I can't even figure out what course I want to run or how far I am going to run until I am actually out the door... lol.. I read all these high-tech posts and I feel like a plodding, ignorant red-neck runner...
But I DO really like running shoes.... almost to the point of it being a disturbing obsession...
That's why I write so much to explain it. In case anyone wants to be educated, I am willing to share my knowledge. About 2 years ago, I was in your shoes and met some nice people here on mfp that took some time out to explain some of this. Enough for me to go read more about it on my own. I studied the crap out of this stuff so that I can become a better runner. So now I am willing to share that knowledge with anyone else who is willing to listen and learn. :-)
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@Stoshew71 Yeah... you always had this stuff down... you and CodeMonkey78 were two of the smartest, best runners I met here... (I was on here previously as LoneWolfRunner)0
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MorningGhost14 wrote: »@Stoshew71 Yeah... you always had this stuff down... you and CodeMonkey78 were two of the smartest, best runners I met here... (I was on here previously as LoneWolfRunner)
Yes. Randall (CodeMonkey78) is a great friend. He is the one who sold me his FR 220 that I am wearing now.
There are other smart people on here like Carson, Dave Munger, Doug aka SonicDeathMonkey, and a few others that I looked up to.0 -
MorningGhost14 wrote: »@Stoshew71 Yeah... you always had this stuff down... you and CodeMonkey78 were two of the smartest, best runners I met here... (I was on here previously as LoneWolfRunner)
Well glad you didn't fall off the face of the Earth..
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Challenge Update: Only 3 miles for me today. It's a beautiful day outside (60+ degrees in Oklahoma in December--and set for 70s the next two days!). A little warmer than I would really prefer for running, but fine for a short run. It was supposed to be a slow day, so I ran without checking my watch except for at the mile markers (it vibrates to let me know). Ended up a little faster than I should have been--closer to race pace--whoops! We'll see how tomorrow's pace run goes.
I finally broke down and ordered: 1) new shoes--identical to my current ones (found this model on clearance! yay!) but a different color; and 2) a weather resistant running jacket/coat. Getting close to being geared out enough to withstand a winter that--at this rate--may not even end up showing its face!
Currently: 20/96 completed
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@Stoshew71 Not questioning the information presented, I may not be on track, and I haven't researched it at all.
Ive heard that lactic acid build up is not the reason for muscle soreness, muscle tears and inflammation are.. I grazed your post. I notice you attribute lactic acid to the burn.
Have you heard this? It still seems to be prevalent to believe the soreness is lactic acid, and eating bananas or milk will help. I even heard this the other week from my rehab specialist with a PhD.
Just pickin' your brain..
Btw- I run better with sugar (and caffeine). I'll carb load (my way) for races.0 -
ceciliaslater wrote: ». Getting close to being geared out enough to withstand a winter that--at this rate--may not even end up showing its face!
You know come February we'll have ice. I'd sure take a mild winter though!0 -
@Stoshew71 Not questioning the information presented, I may not be on track, and I haven't researched it at all.
Ive heard that lactic acid build up is not the reason for muscle soreness, muscle tears and inflammation are.. I grazed your post. I notice you attribute lactic acid to the burn.
Have you heard this? It still seems to be prevalent to believe the soreness is lactic acid, and eating bananas or milk will help. I even heard this the other week from my rehab specialist with a PhD.
Just pickin' your brain..
Btw- I run better with sugar (and caffeine). I'll carb load (my way) for races.
I think what @stoshew71 was talking about is the burning sensation while you're working the muscle being caused by lactic acid buildup, rather than the soreness after the fact. I think you're probably on track with the muscle tears/inflammation.0 -
skippygirlsmom wrote: »@9voice9 like @stoshew71 I don't carb load for a HM and I'm more of a 2:11-2:17 finisher. I don't like the way carb loading makes me feel. I just cut down greasy food and drink extra water. I'm probably a terrible example of what is good. I don't carb load, I eat like 5 crackers before the race, I don't carry water or nutrition for the race. I did bring jelly beans to the half in Nov but never ate them. I also don't follow a training plan, I do what feels right.
This makes me feel a lot better, actually--I just want to eat normally! I've had bariatric surgery, so my eating is already a little odd by comparison to the average. I can't eat enough calories to fuel my run if I eat super low-carb, but I wouldn't feel good loading up on pasta and bread and such. I also don't really like to drink much during my runs (sloshing doesn't feel good), and I've never tried a mid-run fuel. I feel like I should before I do my half in February, because I often start to feel hungry around 7-8 miles. I expect my half marathon in February to take me 2:30-2:45, which does seem rather long to go without eating or drinking anything, which is my norm right now.
12/1 3.5 @ 11:17 on the treadmill plus strength training
12/2 5.25 @ 11:04 on the treadmill. Oh my heck, please let it be sunny tomorrow. Or at least not so wet.
12/3 4.75 @ 12:03 on the park trail with the doggy. Yay! Sunshine!
12/4 3.5 @ 11:03 (really 3.25 at 10:48, plus .25 at a walk) on the treadmill, plus strength training
12/5 3 miles hiking with the cub scouts
12/6 Woke up feeling sore from Friday's strength training, so took a rest day
12/7 9.25 @ 12:26 on the park trail, nice and easy
12/8 3.75 @ 10:48 on the treadmill (3.5 at 10:39, .25 walk), plus stretch/yoga
12/9 5.25 @ 11:32 on the treadmill
12/10 Sort of rest day? Trip to Colonial Williamsburg with my daughter's history class. Lots of walking!
12/11
12/12
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@Stoshew71 Not questioning the information presented, I may not be on track, and I haven't researched it at all.
Ive heard that lactic acid build up is not the reason for muscle soreness, muscle tears and inflammation are.. I grazed your post. I notice you attribute lactic acid to the burn.
Have you heard this? It still seems to be prevalent to believe the soreness is lactic acid, and eating bananas or milk will help. I even heard this the other week from my rehab specialist with a PhD.
Just pickin' your brain..
Btw- I run better with sugar (and caffeine). I'll carb load (my way) for races.ceciliaslater wrote: »I think what @stoshew71 was talking about is the burning sensation while you're working the muscle being caused by lactic acid buildup, rather than the soreness after the fact. I think you're probably on track with the muscle tears/inflammation.
Correct! As @ceciliaslater said, I was referring to the burning sensation while working out.
Now @Elise4270, what you are referring to may possibly be related to DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness).
When I explained it in my original post, I described lactate (but it's really the H+ ions) causing a temporary burning sensation. This burning sensation goes away within a few minutes after the workout as the lacate and H+ ions are consumed either by another muscle cell or converted back into glycogen in the liver.
Now, there is this old wives tale that says that "lactic acid" will linger in your body for days and there are certain things you need to do to get rid of this "toxin". Well, lactic acid does not linger in your muscles for days. First of all, it's not even lactic acid. It's a combination of lactate and H+ ions which is actually something different than lactic acid. Lactate and H+ ions are cleared by your body within an hour after you complete your workout. Lactate is not a toxin. It can actually be used as an energy source by other cells including the brain. Lactate is also a signaling agent. When the body is dealing with a lot of lactate, it signals the body to adapt for changes to prevent it for the future by improving the aerobic system and improving the body's ability to buffer the H+ ions. This is why tempo work and threshold training is important to a runner.
Now, the soreness you feel afterwards is something completely different. Even though people have confused this soreness that occurs afterwards with "lactic acid", it has nothing to do with it. This is DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness).
When you exercise (weight lifting, running, biking, ect.), your muscles will get small microscopic tears. You won't feel this right away. But your body will relatively quickly respond to this. First, water is brought in to protect the muscle. This creates inflamation and soreness as the nerves in this area are activated. This is why your recovery meal is so important after a good workout. I preach 1 g of protein to every 3-4 g of quick carbs within 30 minutes of the workout.
10-20 grams of protein are needed. The more damage you done to your muscle (measured by the intensity of the workout) the more protein you will need. The quick carbs is necessary to replace the glycogen. The longer the workout, the more glucose you will need.
As soon as you are done working out, studies show a high uptake of glucose and amino acids within the first 30 minutes. This speeds up the recovery process and reduces the intensity of DOMS. This soreness will continue as your body works on healing these miscropic tears and works on making the muscle fiber even stronger.
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@Stoshew71 That's what I thought. Sorry the original question wasn't clear @ceciliaslater . I was questing the lingering of the "acid" as DOMS, as it is often perpetuated.
It's just nice to be reassured.
Stan, I thought you were a numbers guy. You have a chemistry degree too? Just wondering- I'm a chemist (note- not biochemist). Been toying with statistical analysis of my HR data today. Thought of you.0 -
@Stoshew71 That's what I thought. Sorry the original question wasn't clear @ceciliaslater . I was questing the lingering of the "acid" as DOMS, as it is often perpetuated.
It's just nice to be reassured.
Stan, I thought you were a numbers guy. You have a chemistry degree too? Just wondering- I'm a chemist (note- not biochemist). Been toying with statistical analysis of my HR data today. Thought of you.
No! I'm a computer scientist. Well my degree is in that. However, I did have a pretty good understanding of chemistry since I had to take 2 years of college prep chemistry in HS (many many moons ago).
But I just do a lot of reading on this stuff. How many articles can you really read on how to do a tempo workout and not get bored? So my interests led me to research stuff at a much deeper level.
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I preach 1 g of protein to every 3-4 g of quick carbs within 30 minutes of the workout.10-20 grams of protein are needed.
@Stoshew71 What are the quick carbs that you'd recommend?
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@9voice9, @Stoshew71, @skippygirlsmom, @MorningGhost14 - I don't carb load prior to HM either. I do try not to eat anything to greasy or spicy the two days prior and also try to eat simpler carbs than sometimes...all to prevent the possibility of gut ache during the race. Also, unless it is really hot, don't drink water/refuel during an HM...again, just isn't comfortable. I enjoy the scientific side coming from @Stoshew71, beats the bro science you see in the forums hands down and I glean the occasional nugget to change what I do. THANKS!0
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@Elise4270 - Homemade pie would be fantastic for carb loading though!0
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I preach 1 g of protein to every 3-4 g of quick carbs within 30 minutes of the workout.10-20 grams of protein are needed.
@Stoshew71 What are the quick carbs that you'd recommend?
I personally will down a bottle of 32 oz PowerAde or Gatorade. Each 12 oz of PowerAde has 21g of sugar. I know cause I am holding the bottle I been drinking this morning in my hand. LOL
Others drink chocolate milk. uhh... any sugar or carb that can quickly be broken down and absorbed into the blood. Think high glycemic. Pure glucose (about as quick as you can get) goes by the name of dextrose has a Glycemic Index value of 100. Lactose (the sugar in milk) has a GI of 45. Honey has a GI of 50. Fructose (you heard of high fructose corn syrup?) has a GI of 25. Sucrose which is basically table sugar has a GI of 65. Any food that has a GI of 70 or more is considered High GI and would be considered a quick carb. White rice has a GI of 64 while brown rice has a GI of 50. A baked potato has a GI of 85.
I hope this helps.0 -
Wanted to add one thought. High glycemic carbs are great within 30 minutes of finishing your workout to immediately replace the glycogen lost during a workout.
For normal eating the rest of the day, you want to go in the other direction. Low glymemic foods are better because you don't want something quickly absorbed and spike your blood with glucose if you don't need that spike. For most of the day while you are at rest, you want slow absorbing carbs, or eat combination of foods that will slow the asorption. This will allow the body to slowly digest the carb and you will get a slower steady stream of energy.
This is as opposed to quick power punch of sugar you need during and immeditely after exercise.0 -
On the subject of DOMS. So the reason you have DOMS is that it is a signal that your body is repairing muscle damage (the microscopic tears). If you remember me explaining the recovery run last month or the month before? The recovery run is a short much slower paced run. One of the reasons we run a recovery run (usually the day after our long run or speed workout) is that we are attempting to raise our blood rate and create this environment for quick uptake of protein and carbs. The recovery run should be done at such a light intensity (even slower than your easy run) just enough to raise your heart rate a little but not enough intensity to cause further muscle tissue damage. So if you eat your recovery meal immedietely after your recovery run you will create an environment to quickly get even more nutrients into the muscle cells that require repairing.
Added note: Sometimes a walk can serve as a "recovery run" if your easy pace is already slow.0 -
On the subject of DOMS. So the reason you have DOMS is that it is a signal that your body is repairing muscle damage (the microscopic tears). If you remember me explaining the recovery run last month or the month before? The recovery run is a short much slower paced run. One of the reasons we run a recovery run (usually the day after our long run or speed workout) is that we are attempting to raise our blood rate and create this environment for quick uptake of protein and carbs. The recovery run should be done at such a light intensity (even slower than your easy run) just enough to raise your heart rate a little but not enough intensity to cause further muscle tissue damage. So if you eat your recovery meal immedietely after your recovery run you will create an environment to quickly get even more nutrients into the muscle cells that require repairing.
Added note: Sometimes a walk can serve as a "recovery run" if your easy pace is already slow.
You know this group just can't be beat! We are one lucky bunch of runners 0 -
December goal — 60 KM…I’ll be traveling for 2 weeks this month and unlikely to be able to run
12/1—5.02km
12/3—5.23 km
12/6—6.52 km run at the GZ Mini Marathon! 28:29 5k time! Happy!
12/10—5.21 km0 -
5BeautifulDays wrote: »skippygirlsmom wrote: »@9voice9 like @stoshew71 I don't carb load for a HM and I'm more of a 2:11-2:17 finisher. I don't like the way carb loading makes me feel. I just cut down greasy food and drink extra water. I'm probably a terrible example of what is good. I don't carb load, I eat like 5 crackers before the race, I don't carry water or nutrition for the race. I did bring jelly beans to the half in Nov but never ate them. I also don't follow a training plan, I do what feels right.
This makes me feel a lot better, actually--I just want to eat normally! I've had bariatric surgery, so my eating is already a little odd by comparison to the average. I can't eat enough calories to fuel my run if I eat super low-carb, but I wouldn't feel good loading up on pasta and bread and such. I also don't really like to drink much during my runs (sloshing doesn't feel good), and I've never tried a mid-run fuel. I feel like I should before I do my half in February, because I often start to feel hungry around 7-8 miles. I expect my half marathon in February to take me 2:30-2:45, which does seem rather long to go without eating or drinking anything, which is my norm right now.
12/1 3.5 @ 11:17 on the treadmill plus strength training
12/2 5.25 @ 11:04 on the treadmill. Oh my heck, please let it be sunny tomorrow. Or at least not so wet.
12/3 4.75 @ 12:03 on the park trail with the doggy. Yay! Sunshine!
12/4 3.5 @ 11:03 (really 3.25 at 10:48, plus .25 at a walk) on the treadmill, plus strength training
12/5 3 miles hiking with the cub scouts
12/6 Woke up feeling sore from Friday's strength training, so took a rest day
12/7 9.25 @ 12:26 on the park trail, nice and easy
12/8 3.75 @ 10:48 on the treadmill (3.5 at 10:39, .25 walk), plus stretch/yoga
12/9 5.25 @ 11:32 on the treadmill
12/10 Sort of rest day? Trip to Colonial Williamsburg with my daughter's history class. Lots of walking!
12/11
12/12
I love Williamsburg!0 -
Last week I did 3 miles (I'm chronically ill and was fighting major exhaustion last week).
Dec 7: 5.0 miles
Dec 9: 5.2 miles. Total: 13.2 miles and I am not going to get to my 55 mile goal this month
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Lost my holiday streak Migraine and the concern that I may be overtraining. RHR was elevated, and I've sprained the other toe/foot doing speed work. Thank goodness for KT tape.
I did make an appointment with a cardiologist to double check the quick diagnosis of exercise induced tachycardia. After a rest day my running max HR was a mere 177 from 218 the previous run.
November-Holiday Streak
26-5.90 Race 10K -my oversight, thought it was sanctioned.
27- 1.02 TM
28-5.60
29-1.02 TM
30-3.47
1-6.03
2-1.02 TM
3-10.01
4-4.15 walk, per HM training plan
5-7.23
6-1.0 TM
7-6.02
8- migraine
9-4.12
39.58/90+
Upcoming races:
02/06/16 Hot Chocolate 15K Dallas
03/19/16 Rock N Roll 5K Dallas
03/20/16 Rock N Roll Half Dallas
04/24/16 OKC Memorial undecided distance0 -
Date.…Km’s…..Total
01/12 – 05.76 – 05.76
02/12 – 02.34 – 08.01 – run : 8’37 pace
03/12 – 04.37 – 12.47 – stage 2 melanoma: clear margins
04/12 – 03.05 – 15.52
05/12 – 04.08 – 19.60
06/12 – 02.07 – 21.67
07/12 – 02.01 – 23.68
08/12 – 02.98 – 26.66
09/12 – 08.96 – 35.62 – ran 6k : 7’26 pace
10/12 – 02.19 – 37.81
Goal – 100km
Going back to read everyone's posts now.. Just a question.. I think @9voice9 said they wear asics cumulus 16's? Loving the shoes, but finding the outside of my legs are a little sore - wondering if the shoes are making me use muscles I wasn't using as much in the Nikes? Might be an individual thing, not sure.0 -
@Elise4270 - Homemade pie would be fantastic for carb loading though!
Mmm....0 -
@ceckhardt369 Congrats on your 5k PR!!!!
@ACSL3
chocloate after breakfast! You're my new best friend!!
@Ohhim 20 mins for a 5k?
Wow!!!!! That is awesome!! I am in awe! About the surgery.. I didn't run for the week of having stitches. I ran just hours before getting the stitches out, though my doctor was okay with it and he even put some strong tape over the scar to help give it some extra support over the next few days. Back to full running for me (though I feel hopelessly unfit and struggled on my last run!)
I can't believe I am reading about McDonald's and pie and now there's mention of Jameson and cupcakes too? Where is this party?? Where is my invite?!
@skippygirlsmom sorry to hear about the ganglion cyst! Hope they got it all out and it heals well!
@karllundy Thanks! Honestly didn't think I would struggle so much at first.
@Stoshew71 Good luck with the marathon!!! Have a ball! We'll all be cheering on the sidelines!
@Elise4270 Take it easy!! Hope you are feeling well now?
Great work everyone!!! Only 10 days into the month and everyone is smashing out the distances! Woooo!!0 -
@Elise4270 I just saw your pic!! LOVE it!!!!0
This discussion has been closed.
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