Fat sick and nearly dead
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PeachyCarol wrote: »realityfades wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »realityfades wrote: »How is what Joe did any different than something like bariatric surgery? I don't think juicing all your meals is the best thing in the world but if someone takes away from the movie that whole fruits and veg > junk food then good for them. I don't think the point of the documentary was for everyone to follow what Joe did, it was meant to make people more aware of their food choices.
Not sure where the comparison to bariatric surgery comes in, but what I'd like people to learn (and what I tried to learn myself) is what a healthful, nutritious, and satisfying diet involves. Something like juicing -- which does not cover all the necessary aspects of a good diet (short in protein and healthy fats and fiber) or teach you how to eat on a regular basis (I'm certainly not eating only liquid fruits and veg all my life) and which seems designed to be super low in calories -- IMO falls way short of what you need to understand nutrition. So even as to something like being aware of food choices I don't think it's a very sensible approach. It also creates this false dichotomy that juicing is the healthiest of choices, when it is not. One can make good choices and have a very healthful diet with no juicing at all (like I said above, I think eating lots of plants is great, but I don't think juicing them is the best approach and some are better cooked).
I compared it to batriatric surgery because before, you have to eat a very low calorie diet in order to lose as much weight as possible. Yes it is medically supervised but I am sure that Joe also had a doctor and health professionals looking after him as well.
Maybe we take away different things from the documentary. To me, it was about Joe making different choices that he thought was right for him. And it worked for a while. He gained the weight back but that's because he probably started eating the way he did before the documentary, much like many of us who have lost weight and regained it. Never once did I get the message that the only way to lose weight is to juice, because I also watched Fat Head and other docs.
I think the answer here is to go deeper. Why did Joe go back to the way he ate before he started juicing?
One of the issues I have with resorting to these sorts of measures to "kickstart" yourself is that you're essentially using band-aids to avoid dealing with the real underlying issue. By giving yourself something to "do" you can lull yourself into believing you're handling things.
Meanwhile?
The issues that really underlie all of your problems remain unaddressed.
I'll go back your parallel with bariatric patients. I knew two people online who had bariatric surgery. One entered a very good program for her surgery. The other didn't. The one who entered the good program was involved in a lot of counseling in addition to the preliminary weight loss. In the aftermath of her procedure, she was prepared for the challenge of eating in a different way and for having a different relationship with food.
She has maintained her weight loss.
The other person didn't fare so well. Her program, while it did have some counseling, made it easy for the people in the program to fake their way through that part because they were focused on making money. As soon as she could after the surgery, she was figuring out ways to game her food, and it wasn't long before she started putting weight back on.
A lot of dialog takes place on these boards regarding what people do to lose weight, but I think that a lot more attention needs to be paid to the "inside" game of weight loss.
In the end, Joe was looking in the wrong place for answers, plain and simple.
Here's the thing. He wanted to make a good film. He wanted to make money. So he did what he thought would be interesting and beneficial for him. It worked for a bit, but he regained the weight like many people.
My aunts had gastric bypass, they too regained the weight. It was their fault and it was Joe's fault too, but again..Joe was out to make money. And he did.0 -
strong_curves wrote: »How does fasting help for "health reasons"?
For me, My IGF-1 tends to be too high and fasting can lower IGF-1. That's a win for me.
I use a ketogenic diet and a short fast increases ketones and it makes me feel good (mentally and physically). Because I am already mainly relying on fat oxidation for fuel, perhaps the hunger or weakness don't occur for me as it would other people.
If I am too hungry, I skip it and consider it for another day or week.0 -
I didn't end up being impressed with the results he got...he became emaciated and religious about it.
Initially he got some great results and looked good. But he took it too far IMO.
I really not sure what you mean by "fasting;" it means different things to different people.0 -
strong_curves wrote: »How does fasting help for "health reasons"?
For me, My IGF-1 tends to be too high and fasting can lower IGF-1. That's a win for me.
I use a ketogenic diet and a short fast increases ketones and it makes me feel good (mentally and physically). Because I am already mainly relying on fat oxidation for fuel, perhaps the hunger or weakness don't occur for me as it would other people.
If I am too hungry, I skip it and consider it for another day or week.
When you fast, are you doing a 60-day juice fast? Because that's what the OP was about. Keto had nothing whatsoever to do with it and hadn't even been mentioned until you brought it up.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »I enjoyed that show. It seemed like a liquified Pritkin (sp?) diet, which has been shown to help the health of many.
It motivated me to get a really powerful blender so I could drink my veggies, and make healthful drinks for my kids. I like the idea of smoothies more than juice.
Fasting can be good for you too. I do it once in a while too.
Pritikin diet. The German wikipedia article lists some extra disadvantages the english one doesn't.
*Small and possibly boring amount of choices
*Long term supply of important nutrients is not guaranteed, especially iron, iodine and calcium
*possible low energy and protein intake (ad lib I guess)
*bloating and diarrhea from the high fiber contents
*worse concentration, tiredness and anxiety symptoms
Oh, also it apparently suggests eating no more than 650 kcal per day.
I doubt many Pritikin dieters subsist at 650 kcal per day. It's a bad business plan to kill off your customers.
I never said I did it. I said it reminded my of a liquified Pritikin diet.
Didn't say you did it. Just listing the negatives of that one since it's not just healthy (at least according to wikipedia). The English wiki article reads like it was written by the publisher of the book though.
And that's a diet that allows for some meat etc. A 60 day juice fast would be even worse in protein intake and other things.0 -
brianpperkins wrote: »My thoughts are that unsustainable, fad approaches such as highlighted in that mocumentary are foolish.
This0 -
strong_curves wrote: »How does fasting help for "health reasons"?
For me, My IGF-1 tends to be too high and fasting can lower IGF-1. That's a win for me.
I use a ketogenic diet and a short fast increases ketones and it makes me feel good (mentally and physically). Because I am already mainly relying on fat oxidation for fuel, perhaps the hunger or weakness don't occur for me as it would other people.
If I am too hungry, I skip it and consider it for another day or week.
When you fast, are you doing a 60-day juice fast? Because that's what the OP was about. Keto had nothing whatsoever to do with it and hadn't even been mentioned until you brought it up.
If the thread would've been about walking, that poster would've still found a way to mention keto. If the thread was about buying pants, the poster would've mentioned keto ..
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strong_curves wrote: »How does fasting help for "health reasons"?
For me, My IGF-1 tends to be too high and fasting can lower IGF-1. That's a win for me.
I use a ketogenic diet and a short fast increases ketones and it makes me feel good (mentally and physically). Because I am already mainly relying on fat oxidation for fuel, perhaps the hunger or weakness don't occur for me as it would other people.
If I am too hungry, I skip it and consider it for another day or week.
I'm curious, I've never really heard of anyone having that routinely tested. Do you mind me asking why it was tested, or how high it is? Is this something most people need to worry about?
Does your diet address it? Is it related to another health condition?0 -
Keto is the polar opposite of the juicing diet in that mockumentary.0
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PeachyCarol wrote: »strong_curves wrote: »How does fasting help for "health reasons"?
For me, My IGF-1 tends to be too high and fasting can lower IGF-1. That's a win for me.
I use a ketogenic diet and a short fast increases ketones and it makes me feel good (mentally and physically). Because I am already mainly relying on fat oxidation for fuel, perhaps the hunger or weakness don't occur for me as it would other people.
If I am too hungry, I skip it and consider it for another day or week.
I'm curious, I've never really heard of anyone having that routinely tested. Do you mind me asking why it was tested, or how high it is? Is this something most people need to worry about?
Does your diet address it? Is it related to another health condition?
I'm curious what the hell keto has to do with a thread about juice fasts apparently every thread on MFP.
FTFM0 -
....what happened to this thread?! I want to get off the ride now.0
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Oh dear god. This could get messy....0
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PeachyCarol wrote: »strong_curves wrote: »How does fasting help for "health reasons"?
For me, My IGF-1 tends to be too high and fasting can lower IGF-1. That's a win for me.
I use a ketogenic diet and a short fast increases ketones and it makes me feel good (mentally and physically). Because I am already mainly relying on fat oxidation for fuel, perhaps the hunger or weakness don't occur for me as it would other people.
If I am too hungry, I skip it and consider it for another day or week.
I'm curious, I've never really heard of anyone having that routinely tested. Do you mind me asking why it was tested, or how high it is? Is this something most people need to worry about?
Does your diet address it? Is it related to another health condition?
Great questions @PeachyCarol I am interested too....
At Wiki it talks about it being an insulin like growth factor that waxes and wanes throughout our lives depending on LOTS of reasons.....highest when we are in puberty and lowest as we age.
If I am reading this correctly a vegan diet is mostly associated with this hormone dropping so......@nvmomketo while they mentioned citation being needed there is mention that high protein diets are found to cause an excess of this particular hormone independent of the overall caloric intake.....so if your IGF-1 is high maybe keto is not the best diet for you. Just something you might like to talk over with your Doctor.
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Just to be clear I was not talking about fasting for 60 days! Lol you can do it for however long you feel I usually do a week or 3 day. I just wanted to see how this would go and peoples thoughts. I did watch p 2 and nobody mentions Phil maintained his loss for 2 years. He did regain bc he did not have the right support system and life happened to him. Joe regained about 20 to 40 that fluctuates but the guy lost like 90 lbs so that's his maintained weight. Typically you regain around 10 after a fast anyway.0
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PeachyCarol wrote: »strong_curves wrote: »How does fasting help for "health reasons"?
For me, My IGF-1 tends to be too high and fasting can lower IGF-1. That's a win for me.
I use a ketogenic diet and a short fast increases ketones and it makes me feel good (mentally and physically). Because I am already mainly relying on fat oxidation for fuel, perhaps the hunger or weakness don't occur for me as it would other people.
If I am too hungry, I skip it and consider it for another day or week.
I'm curious, I've never really heard of anyone having that routinely tested. Do you mind me asking why it was tested, or how high it is? Is this something most people need to worry about?
Does your diet address it? Is it related to another health condition?
It was tested due to some other health issues. I was expected to be low but it is above normal. Elevated IGF-1 is usually caused by a pituitary tumor or is inexplicable. Mine appears to be inexplicable and can spontaneously drop to normal
It can occur along with hypothyroidism but is rare. It is not something most people have to worry about.
High IGF-1 is not desirable because it is thought to aid in cancerous growth. Higher IGF-1 is also associated with faster aging - cell turnover is more rapid. This is where fasting can help. It lowers IGF-1 somewhat to possibly help reduce cancer risk and cellular turnover.
The plus side of higher IGF-1 is I tend to put on muscle faster than the average woman.
A very high meat diet is thought to raise HGH and IGF-1, but I have a moderate protein intake. It is possible a vegan diet would lower IGF-1 further, but that is not a good treatment option for my insulin resistance. Plus I would not enjoy that woe; it would be difficult for me.
Apologies to the OP. That was mostly off topic.0 -
I find that very interesting! No apologies needed. I think I have some type of hormonal imbalance going on I have high fsh levels but I need retesting for thyroid issues. I have high testosterone and find I too put muscle on fast as well.0
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It can be difficult getting everything balanced out! Best wishes with that.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »I think smoothies (with the fiber) are healthier than juicing. But yes: eating more nutrient dense plants is good.
I agree with this. I also see no benefits to blending it up vs. eating it whole (and even eating some or many vegetables cooked), unless for some reason someone won't eat them otherwise.
But I'm in favor of eating lots of nutrient dense plants as part of an overall balanced diet with adequate protein.
I used fruits and veg and protein powder to create a smoothie when I am running late but need something in my stomach, or when I have about 2 hours before a strenuous workout session and don't want anything heavy in me that might come back up during the workout. Otherwise there is no real advantage, just a personal preference to be able to quickly drink the smoothie on the way out the door. Plus extra water!0 -
strong_curves wrote: »How does fasting help for "health reasons"?
For me, My IGF-1 tends to be too high and fasting can lower IGF-1. That's a win for me.
I use a ketogenic diet and a short fast increases ketones and it makes me feel good (mentally and physically). Because I am already mainly relying on fat oxidation for fuel, perhaps the hunger or weakness don't occur for me as it would other people.
If I am too hungry, I skip it and consider it for another day or week.
OK I'll bite
What is IGF-1?
What does it signify?
How often do you get it tested?
Why is this something you rely on - what were the associated symptoms?
I honestly know nothing about this apart from a link to childhood growth disorders? This is what I got from wiki
"IGF-1 is a hormone similar in molecular structure to insulin. It plays an important role in childhood growth and continues to have anabolic effects in adults. A synthetic analog of IGF-1, mecasermin, is used for the treatment of growth failure.[4]
IGF-1 consists of 70 amino acids in a single chain with three intramolecular disulfide bridges. IGF-1 has a molecular weight of 7,649 daltons.[5]"
I am sure I'm missing something0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »strong_curves wrote: »How does fasting help for "health reasons"?
For me, My IGF-1 tends to be too high and fasting can lower IGF-1. That's a win for me.
I use a ketogenic diet and a short fast increases ketones and it makes me feel good (mentally and physically). Because I am already mainly relying on fat oxidation for fuel, perhaps the hunger or weakness don't occur for me as it would other people.
If I am too hungry, I skip it and consider it for another day or week.
I'm curious, I've never really heard of anyone having that routinely tested. Do you mind me asking why it was tested, or how high it is? Is this something most people need to worry about?
Does your diet address it? Is it related to another health condition?
It was tested due to some other health issues. I was expected to be low but it is above normal. Elevated IGF-1 is usually caused by a pituitary tumor or is inexplicable. Mine appears to be inexplicable and can spontaneously drop to normal
It can occur along with hypothyroidism but is rare. It is not something most people have to worry about.
High IGF-1 is not desirable because it is thought to aid in cancerous growth. Higher IGF-1 is also associated with faster aging - cell turnover is more rapid. This is where fasting can help. It lowers IGF-1 somewhat to possibly help reduce cancer risk and cellular turnover.
The plus side of higher IGF-1 is I tend to put on muscle faster than the average woman.
A very high meat diet is thought to raise HGH and IGF-1, but I have a moderate protein intake. It is possible a vegan diet would lower IGF-1 further, but that is not a good treatment option for my insulin resistance. Plus I would not enjoy that woe; it would be difficult for me.
Apologies to the OP. That was mostly off topic.
ahhh I missed this sorry
that wiki piece also says "Cancer[edit]
The IGF signaling pathway is implicated in some cancers.[15][16] People with Laron syndrome have a lessened risk of developing cancer.[17] Dietary interventions and modifications such as vegan diets shown to downregulate IGF-1 activity, has been associated with lower risk of cancer.[18] However, despite considerable research, perturbations specific to cancer are incompletely delineated[19][20] and clinical drug trials have been unsuccessful.[16][21]" but I haven't had a chance to look at the sources
just seems a little walking down a dead alley on first sight - but I'm happy to admit I know nothing of this0 -
I fast, it works for me.0
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KANGOOJUMPS wrote: »I fast, it works for me.
With a healthy attitude towards food and the right mindset, there's nothing wrong with fasting.
The people claiming that it's mentally unhealthy to fast or whatever clearly don't have this, but each to their own. I've already deleted one account on here as I got bullied over the unhealthiness of alternate day fasting as opposed to 1200 cal/ day diets, binging and over-exercising (lol), so I'll admit I'm somewhat sensitive on the subject.
ITT: alternate day fasting, 4:3, 5:2, 16:8, lean-gains etc etc - great. Wonderful. A weight-loss tool like any other. 60 day juice fasts or whatever - probably not. But there is a difference 0 -
KANGOOJUMPS wrote: »I fast, it works for me.
With a healthy attitude towards food and the right mindset, there's nothing wrong with fasting.
The people claiming that it's mentally unhealthy to fast or whatever clearly don't have this, but each to their own. I've already deleted one account on here as I got bullied over the unhealthiness of alternate day fasting as opposed to 1200 cal/ day diets, binging and over-exercising (lol), so I'll admit I'm somewhat sensitive on the subject.
ITT: alternate day fasting, 4:3, 5:2, 16:8, lean-gains etc etc - great. Wonderful. A weight-loss tool like any other. 60 day juice fasts or whatever - probably not. But there is a difference
It's awfully rude to suggest that those of us in the thread who don't do IF (same as alternate day fasting) do 1200, binge, and overexercise, and also not accurate.
Also, no one has said negative things about IFing in the thread. What we've said negative things about are 60 day juice fasts which are entirely different. Sigh.0 -
I didn't for one moment assume that everyone not doing ADF etc or whatever eats 1200 and binges. I'm just saying in my case the person attacking me did. I apologise if I wasn't clear on that.
Sigh all you want. But if my point was unclear to you, then logically a few posters above declaring that fasting "being mentally unhealthy" might also be seen as unclear, you see.0 -
Your point wasn't unclear, but this thread is not about IF.0
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Juicing. Fasting. So which is it? They're the same? I'm confused.0
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I'd see juicing as just making and drinking some juice as part of your overall diet. Not my thing as I prefer whole vegetables and fruits, but great for those who enjoy it. (IMO smoothies are a better alternative, though, even if you want to drink your produce, since you keep all the fiber.)
Juice fasting is consuming nothing but juice and is what I consider unhealthy over a longer period of time and is what is promoted by the movie that's this thread is about (given the title). The problem with juice fasting is that it tends to be a VLCD and also lacks protein and healthy fat.
Just plain fasting, of course, is going without food (or some non fast "fasts" that are part of various religious traditions where you go without certain foods or limit food or don't eat at certain times of the day). No one is saying short fasts or partial fasts as done for religious reasons are unhealthy.
Intermittent fasting is limiting the window in which you eat according to some plan -- eating low calories on one day and maintenance on another or having a 6 hour eating window every day or some such. It's not what this thread is about and I don't see anyone claiming it's unhealthy.
I think I covered it, but most likely there are things I forgot so others should add! ;-)0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »I think smoothies (with the fiber) are healthier than juicing. But yes: eating more nutrient dense plants is good.
I agree with this. I also see no benefits to blending it up vs. eating it whole (and even eating some or many vegetables cooked), unless for some reason someone won't eat them otherwise.
But I'm in favor of eating lots of nutrient dense plants as part of an overall balanced diet with adequate protein.
I do make some smoothies, for variety more than anything. But yes.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »I think smoothies (with the fiber) are healthier than juicing. But yes: eating more nutrient dense plants is good.
I agree with this. I also see no benefits to blending it up vs. eating it whole (and even eating some or many vegetables cooked), unless for some reason someone won't eat them otherwise.
But I'm in favor of eating lots of nutrient dense plants as part of an overall balanced diet with adequate protein.
I do make some smoothies, for variety more than anything. But yes.
I tend to enjoy smoothies a lot in the summer when it's too hot to feel like eating. Something cold to drink just seems to hit the spot.0 -
nevermind.0
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