Wendler's 5/3/1 ... the good, the bad, the ugly, the victorious

Lleldiranne

I'm considering trying Wendler's 5/3/1 starting in the new year. I'm not new to lifting (I first took a weight training class in college over 15 years ago). Lately I've been doing a full body routine focusing on the big lifts, but I'm thinking 5/3/1 might actually help me get to the workout on a more regular basis. I've looked it up and am interested in the format.

What I want is reviews/input from people who have done this program (or are doing it now). What do you like about it? What don't you like? Any tips to help me? Even reasons not to do it, if that's how you feel.

I know I need to eat right for my goals (currently working on cutting). I love lifting, so whatever program I do will be the big compound lifts, with the option of accessory lifts after. I'd just like some input in this program. Thanks!!

hill8570

I can't answer your question directly (currently running Madcow...I'll probably run 5/3/1 once I feel I'm not getting anything more out of Madcow). However, generally you'll make faster progress on one of the beginner's programs (which I *kitten*-u-me you're currently doing) than an intermediate like 5/3/1 -- an intermediate program is more useful when you just can't handle the volume or the rapid progression of the beginner's programs.

If you don't mind my asking, what program are you currently running, what do you not like about it, and what aspects of 5/3/1 look attractive? Might be able to suggest some alternatives.

jacksonpt

The thing I like best about it is the flexibility of the accessory work. Focus on the main lift for the day, then you can kinda do whatever you want. I also like that can be a very quick workout, so it fits well within my lunch break.

For it's intended purpose, there is nothing I don't like about it. I've tweaked it a bit at times to fit my goals/preferences, but if you read the book(s), the mentality and approach to the program is fantastic.

If you know how to do the lifts, then I don't think there is a compelling reason NOT to do it if strength is your priority.

JTick

I would recommend a beginner's program first. I ran 5x5 for a year before switching to 5/3/1. 5/3/1 won't let you fully take advantage of newbie gains.

I've been on 5/3/1 for two years now, and am still making progress. I add about 5 lbs to each of lifts every month, which is pretty solid considering I'm in a deficit. I did have a trainer help me with accessory work - my accessories now target my week points instead of just being "stock" exercises.

jemhh

I did 5/3/1 from the end of April until a couple of weeks ago. I'm taking a short break from it but will be back at it in February.

I would do 5/3/1 as a beginner too. Wendler's take on working it as a beginner is here: http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/jim-wendler-531/531_beginner_template_assistance_exercises

My suggestion is to get both the first 5/3/1 book and Beyond 5/3/1, read them both, and keep them on hand for reference.

ew_david

Short answer: I love it for its flexibility. You can do so much with it. I'm able to mix both lifting for strength and lifting for hypertrophy. I like an upper/lower split, 4 days/week; I get a lot accomplished without having to live in the gym. Lastly, the Black Iron Beast website calculator makes it insanely easy for me and I never go into the gym guessing what my numbers should be.

utahmomof10

If you already have a good foundation in proper form, etc., then I see no reason why you shouldn't switch to 5/3/1. I started with Starting Strength in March of this year, and switched to 5/3/1 in September because I got horribly bored with SS. Yes, I was making good progress, but it was so monotonous to me. I love the variety/flexibility of the accessory program with Wendler. I have been able to incorporate other moves like front squats, pull-ups, bent-over rows, and even Olympic lifts using the accessories. Plus, I have the ability to make it as high intensity as I want, which I was missing with Starting Strength -- I like getting my "burn" on, and SS just wasn't doing it for me.

While the 5/3/1 may technically put more weight on the bar a little more slowly (I say "may" because that may be true for some, but I have not found it to be true for me), I have not found that my strength gains have slowed down at all, which I think is due to the accessory program that makes the program actually more work than SS.

Bottom line - go for it. If you don't like it, you can always change to something else.

Lleldiranne

I *know* I am well beyond the newbie gains... even discounting everything before, I have been lifting for about a year with some degree of regularity. I saw the big jumps at first, I was up to and then surpassing my pre-pregnancy lifts within a month or two (I had to stop working out during pregnancy due to ligament issues, but had been lifting for over a year before that, too, not to mention multiple other times as an adult).

I haven't been running a real program ... well, not beyond a self-made one. I've been doing bench press, squats, deadlifts, and back row as my big lifts, with 5 sets of 5 reps each. I just haven't seen much progress lately, and like I mentioned, I'm thinking something more like a split will be better than full body each time.

I have noticed that 5/3/1 doesn't include back row ... I guess that would fit in more as an accessory lift. And I would be adding in OHP, which is fine.

Thanks for the input so far, keep it coming, folks!

jemhh

mathjulz wrote: »

I *know* I am well beyond the newbie gains... even discounting everything before, I have been lifting for about a year with some degree of regularity. I saw the big jumps at first, I was up to and then surpassing my pre-pregnancy lifts within a month or two (I had to stop working out during pregnancy due to ligament issues, but had been lifting for over a year before that, too, not to mention multiple other times as an adult).

I haven't been running a real program ... well, not beyond a self-made one. I've been doing bench press, squats, deadlifts, and back row as my big lifts, with 5 sets of 5 reps each. I just haven't seen much progress lately, and like I mentioned, I'm thinking something more like a split will be better than full body each time.

I have noticed that 5/3/1 doesn't include back row ... I guess that would fit in more as an accessory lift. And I would be adding in OHP, which is fine.

Thanks for the input so far, keep it coming, folks!

5/3/1 is a rep scheme that can be used with many lifts but the standard plain jane template includes OHP but he just calls it press so maybe that's where you're thinking it doesn't? Most of the templates include rows as well (as accessories.) What are you looking at to get info on 5/3/1?

I wouldn't worry about newbie gains (and it sounds like you aren't so that's good.)

RMaxwell90

Personally, I don't like performing each main lift only once per week (squat, bench, DL,OHP).
Often people will do their accessories for one lift on a different day, I.e. doing DL accessory work on squat day, OHP accessory work on bench day etc.
My .02

cwolfman13

5/3/1 is a good undulating periodization program with the primary focus being strength...Wendler is a powerlifter. I transitioned to it from Starting Strength as i was to the point of needing to incorporate more assistance work to keep moving forward. I would highly suggest reading both of the books to get a feel for the philosophy behind the programming. What I really liked was the flexibility within the programming.

jemhh

RMaxwell90 wrote: »

Personally, I don't like performing each main lift only once per week (squat, bench, DL,OHP).
Often people will do their accessories for one lift on a different day, I.e. doing DL accessory work on squat day, OHP accessory work on bench day etc.
My .02

You can also do 5/3/1 as a three day a week program (even a 2 day a week program), which would have you combining two of the main lifts on one day (and then doing your assistance.) There are so many different ways to set up your program. It is exceedingly easy to customize it. I've done the full body template, simplest strength template, and then something a bit more customized.

RMaxwell90

jemhh wrote: »

RMaxwell90 wrote: »

Personally, I don't like performing each main lift only once per week (squat, bench, DL,OHP).
Often people will do their accessories for one lift on a different day, I.e. doing DL accessory work on squat day, OHP accessory work on bench day etc.
My .02

You can also do 5/3/1 as a three day a week program (even a 2 day a week program), which would have you combining two of the main lifts on one day (and then doing your assistance.) There are so many different ways to set up your program. It is exceedingly easy to customize it. I've done the full body template, simplest strength template, and then something a bit more customized.

Fair point, all I meant was that I think you'll get better results (whatever your goals might be) with higher frequency than once per week for a given lift.

Sam_I_Am77

First, make sure you have "Beyond 5/3/1" so you're working with his more recent material. It uses 6-week training blocks and you focus on certain lifts and then a couple accessory exercises to that support the main lifts. You can make it Undulating if you want or leave it more straight-forward.

The good
- It's very flexible you can train 7-days a week, you can train 2-days a week.
- You can train full-body or lower body / upper body splits
- Probably something you can use and adjust with experience to train with for life. 5/3/1 uses Jim's training principles which creates a training system versus a training program (e.g. StrongLifts5x5)
- Within those principles is the "Training Max" concept that Jim and a few others have championed. It's an excellent way to auto-regulate your training progress.

The "bad" if you want to call it that
- You don't put plates on the bar as fast which some people see as a disadvantage which I don't quite get. If you started only being able to squat 100lbs for 5-reps and 6 weeks later you can squat 100lbs for 10-reps you got stronger, no?

And that's honestly the only "negative" I can think of.

Larissa_NY

The only thing I don't like is that with the vanilla program I don't get enough volume to progress very well. I had to tack on joker sets and First Set Last. Other than that, I love it.

jemhh

RMaxwell90 wrote: »

jemhh wrote: »

RMaxwell90 wrote: »

Personally, I don't like performing each main lift only once per week (squat, bench, DL,OHP).
Often people will do their accessories for one lift on a different day, I.e. doing DL accessory work on squat day, OHP accessory work on bench day etc.
My .02

You can also do 5/3/1 as a three day a week program (even a 2 day a week program), which would have you combining two of the main lifts on one day (and then doing your assistance.) There are so many different ways to set up your program. It is exceedingly easy to customize it. I've done the full body template, simplest strength template, and then something a bit more customized.

Fair point, all I meant was that I think you'll get better results (whatever your goals might be) with higher frequency than once per week for a given lift.

Oh no, I like doing the lifts the way you described--switching assistance days when doing it 4 days a week. Actually that full body template has you squat 3 days with 2 of them at lower weight, which is nice too

utahmomof10

RMaxwell90 wrote: »

Personally, I don't like performing each main lift only once per week (squat, bench, DL,OHP).
Often people will do their accessories for one lift on a different day, I.e. doing DL accessory work on squat day, OHP accessory work on bench day etc.
My .02

This is exactly what I have done - DL at 50% of working weight for 5x10 on squat day and vice versa - same with bench and OHP. What I liked about doing that was that you get both a strength and a "volume" aspect to each of the lifts each week.

Currently, I am only lifting 3 days a week and using the Wendler program in a kind of push/legs/pull format with OHP and bench on Mondays, squats on Wednesdays, and dead lifts on Fridays, with accessory work on each day. This is working well for me, too.

lisalsd1

I'm running 5/3/1 for PL (from Beyond 5/3/1) right now; I love it. I like having a dedicated day for my main lifts. Sunday=Squat Day, Monday=OHP Day, Thursday=Deadlift Day, Saturday=Bench Day. I like the simplicity in this design. I did add a "Butt Day" where I do hip thrusts using the 5/3/1 set/rep scheme.

jemhh

lisalsd1 wrote: »

I'm running 5/3/1 for PL (from Beyond 5/3/1) right now; I love it. I like having a dedicated day for my main lifts. Sunday=Squat Day, Monday=OHP Day, Thursday=Deadlift Day, Saturday=Bench Day. I like the simplicity in this design. I did add a "Butt Day" where I do hip thrusts using the 5/3/1 set/rep scheme.

I've never done 5/3/1 for hip thrusts but have included them as an assistance exercise. I might try that sometime though.

piperdown44

I've been running 531 on and off for about 2 years now. I use blackironbeast.com for my template calculator and use the BBB (Big But Boring option). Highly recommend (as others have said) getting the book so you know what the options are and you can decide how you want the accessory lifts to look.

Using the template I follow (for an example) from blackironbeast:
M - Main lift OHP, BBB Accessories Bench press 5x10, 5 sets chin-ups (or lat pulldowns)
T- Main lift Deads, BBB Accessories Squats 5x10, 5 sets hanging leg raises (or other ab work)
Th - Main lift Bench press, BBB Accessories OHP 5x10, Dumbbell rows 5x10 (or other rows)
Fr - Main lift Squats, BBB Accessories deads 5x10, Leg curl 5x10 (or other hammy work)

If I'm feeling good I might throw an extra set of the main lift in at the highest weight then back off 25% and do a set of 10.
If I have a bit more time (i.e., burn through the lifts) I might add a few more accessory lifts in, such as incline press on bench day, or RDL on squat or dead day, etc.

The program has worked well for me. Over the past year I've added about 25lbs to bench, 30 on OHP, 60 on deads and 40 on squats.

Lleldiranne

The book is going on my Christmas wish list. I'm excited to give this a try.

SideSteel

If you think of 5/3/1 as a simple way to periodize the main lifts, and you customize it to meet your goals and preferences, I think it's a fine program. Most (not all) of the templates have you performing the main lifts only once per week and that's my biggest criticism of it. I don't think this is ideal for most people.

Back when I ran it I would flip the accessories to reach at least 2/week frequency, and apparently some of Wendler's other templates increase frequency as well so that's a good thing.

jacklifts

I personally did not like it, but that's likely due to personal biases. I'm not one who's going to tag on extra sets if it's not written in the program, so I always found myself doing the not-doing-jack-*kitten* variety. But I really didn't progress on that since I also one who needs volume to progress.

I also found the progression scheme extremely boring. If you follow it, you don't set PRs for 6-9 months depending on your lifts.

The best program I've been on other than a basic linear program is the Juggernaut Method. Lots of volume building up to a nice PR at the end of 4 months. It's been especially good for squats for me.

arditarose

I did 5/3/1 on a cut and loved it. I use the same template now while running a different program and am still having success.

ew_david

jacklifts wrote: »

I personally did not like it, but that's likely due to personal biases. I'm not one who's going to tag on extra sets if it's not written in the program, so I always found myself doing the not-doing-jack-*kitten* variety. But I really didn't progress on that since I also one who needs volume to progress.

I also found the progression scheme extremely boring. If you follow it, you don't set PRs for 6-9 months depending on your lifts.

The best program I've been on other than a basic linear program is the Juggernaut Method. Lots of volume building up to a nice PR at the end of 4 months. It's been especially good for squats for me.

Reading this tells me you didn't actually know what you were doing with 5/3/1. Wendler even says in his book that you won't progress as quickly and that PRs come in more forms than just a new 1RM.

Aside from the volume, I found Juggernaut to be very similar. I mean, you're doing the same exact lifts.

lisalsd1

jemhh wrote: »

lisalsd1 wrote: »

I'm running 5/3/1 for PL (from Beyond 5/3/1) right now; I love it. I like having a dedicated day for my main lifts. Sunday=Squat Day, Monday=OHP Day, Thursday=Deadlift Day, Saturday=Bench Day. I like the simplicity in this design. I did add a "Butt Day" where I do hip thrusts using the 5/3/1 set/rep scheme.

I've never done 5/3/1 for hip thrusts but have included them as an assistance exercise. I might try that sometime though.

I hip thrust-ed 210 for a set of 8 on my AMRAP week; not gonna lie, I had to crawl away from the bar at the end. It was intense and totally worth it.

Sam_I_Am77

_dracarys_ wrote: »

jacklifts wrote: »

I personally did not like it, but that's likely due to personal biases. I'm not one who's going to tag on extra sets if it's not written in the program, so I always found myself doing the not-doing-jack-*kitten* variety. But I really didn't progress on that since I also one who needs volume to progress.

I also found the progression scheme extremely boring. If you follow it, you don't set PRs for 6-9 months depending on your lifts.

The best program I've been on other than a basic linear program is the Juggernaut Method. Lots of volume building up to a nice PR at the end of 4 months. It's been especially good for squats for me.

Reading this tells me you didn't actually know what you were doing with 5/3/1. Wendler even says in his book that you won't progress as quickly and that PRs come in more forms than just a new 1RM.

Aside from the volume, I found Juggernaut to be very similar. I mean, you're doing the same exact lifts.

I would tend to agree with you. I guess you could find it boring, I can accept that at least. If somebody doesn't make progress in 5/3/1 they're probably doing something wrong in their training or in their recovery, if not both. I'm not sure where the statement of PR's only every 6 to 9 months comes from. Why do you need more volume than others? Everybody needs volume to progress; volume is the sum of reps, sets, and training frequency, everybody needs some form of volume.

piperdown44

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

_dracarys_ wrote: »

jacklifts wrote: »

I personally did not like it, but that's likely due to personal biases. I'm not one who's going to tag on extra sets if it's not written in the program, so I always found myself doing the not-doing-jack-*kitten* variety. But I really didn't progress on that since I also one who needs volume to progress.

I also found the progression scheme extremely boring. If you follow it, you don't set PRs for 6-9 months depending on your lifts.

The best program I've been on other than a basic linear program is the Juggernaut Method. Lots of volume building up to a nice PR at the end of 4 months. It's been especially good for squats for me.

Reading this tells me you didn't actually know what you were doing with 5/3/1. Wendler even says in his book that you won't progress as quickly and that PRs come in more forms than just a new 1RM.

Aside from the volume, I found Juggernaut to be very similar. I mean, you're doing the same exact lifts.

I would tend to agree with you. I guess you could find it boring, I can accept that at least. If somebody doesn't make progress in 5/3/1 they're probably doing something wrong in their training or in their recovery, if not both. I'm not sure where the statement of PR's only every 6 to 9 months comes from. Why do you need more volume than others? Everybody needs volume to progress; volume is the sum of reps, sets, and training frequency, everybody needs some form of volume.

Yep. Which is why most people that run 531 also use some form of the big but boring template that Wendler discusses in the book. I can't imagine just running the main lift once per week unless you're a powerlifting elite and those people have quite a bit of accessory lifts or boatloads of volume.

I recently switched the BBB template from 5x10 at 55% training max to 5x5 at 80% training max to add a bit more intensity. The simple fact that it's available as a template indicates that you can customize 531 just about however you need to for reaching your goals.

stevencloser

jemhh wrote: »

I did 5/3/1 from the end of April until a couple of weeks ago. I'm taking a short break from it but will be back at it in February.

I would do 5/3/1 as a beginner too. Wendler's take on working it as a beginner is here: http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/jim-wendler-531/531_beginner_template_assistance_exercises

My suggestion is to get both the first 5/3/1 book and Beyond 5/3/1, read them both, and keep them on hand for reference.

What wendler posted there is pretty much what I'm doing, minus the betweeen-set pushups and chinups. Works pretty well.

stevencloser

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

_dracarys_ wrote: »

jacklifts wrote: »

I personally did not like it, but that's likely due to personal biases. I'm not one who's going to tag on extra sets if it's not written in the program, so I always found myself doing the not-doing-jack-*kitten* variety. But I really didn't progress on that since I also one who needs volume to progress.

I also found the progression scheme extremely boring. If you follow it, you don't set PRs for 6-9 months depending on your lifts.

The best program I've been on other than a basic linear program is the Juggernaut Method. Lots of volume building up to a nice PR at the end of 4 months. It's been especially good for squats for me.

Reading this tells me you didn't actually know what you were doing with 5/3/1. Wendler even says in his book that you won't progress as quickly and that PRs come in more forms than just a new 1RM.

Aside from the volume, I found Juggernaut to be very similar. I mean, you're doing the same exact lifts.

I would tend to agree with you. I guess you could find it boring, I can accept that at least. If somebody doesn't make progress in 5/3/1 they're probably doing something wrong in their training or in their recovery, if not both. I'm not sure where the statement of PR's only every 6 to 9 months comes from. Why do you need more volume than others? Everybody needs volume to progress; volume is the sum of reps, sets, and training frequency, everybody needs some form of volume.

Yeah, shouldn't you get a new 1RM PR (assuming you're finishing all your workouts successfully) every 4 times you do a lift on a 5/3/1 scheme? Which is at least once per month.

jimmmer

stevencloser wrote: »

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

_dracarys_ wrote: »

jacklifts wrote: »

I personally did not like it, but that's likely due to personal biases. I'm not one who's going to tag on extra sets if it's not written in the program, so I always found myself doing the not-doing-jack-*kitten* variety. But I really didn't progress on that since I also one who needs volume to progress.

I also found the progression scheme extremely boring. If you follow it, you don't set PRs for 6-9 months depending on your lifts.

The best program I've been on other than a basic linear program is the Juggernaut Method. Lots of volume building up to a nice PR at the end of 4 months. It's been especially good for squats for me.

Reading this tells me you didn't actually know what you were doing with 5/3/1. Wendler even says in his book that you won't progress as quickly and that PRs come in more forms than just a new 1RM.

Aside from the volume, I found Juggernaut to be very similar. I mean, you're doing the same exact lifts.

I would tend to agree with you. I guess you could find it boring, I can accept that at least. If somebody doesn't make progress in 5/3/1 they're probably doing something wrong in their training or in their recovery, if not both. I'm not sure where the statement of PR's only every 6 to 9 months comes from. Why do you need more volume than others? Everybody needs volume to progress; volume is the sum of reps, sets, and training frequency, everybody needs some form of volume.

Yeah, shouldn't you get a new 1RM PR (assuming you're finishing all your workouts successfully) every 4 times you do a lift on a 5/3/1 scheme? Which is at least once per month.

On some ways to run it: 3/5/1 or SVR or with jokers, for example.

Vanilla 5/3/1 you'd do 95% of your tm (so 90% of your 1RM) for an AMRAP on week 3 and be done. If you're doing joker sets on top of this (or 3/5/1 or SVR) you'd keep working up in singles, and if you're feeling spunky, go for a new 1RM.