Wendler's 5/3/1 ... the good, the bad, the ugly, the victorious
Replies
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I'm considering trying Wendler's 5/3/1 starting in the new year. I'm not new to lifting (I first took a weight training class in college over 15 years ago). Lately I've been doing a full body routine focusing on the big lifts, but I'm thinking 5/3/1 might actually help me get to the workout on a more regular basis. I've looked it up and am interested in the format.
What I want is reviews/input from people who have done this program (or are doing it now). What do you like about it? What don't you like? Any tips to help me? Even reasons not to do it, if that's how you feel.
I know I need to eat right for my goals (currently working on cutting). I love lifting, so whatever program I do will be the big compound lifts, with the option of accessory lifts after. I'd just like some input in this program. Thanks!!
You need to make choices that move you towards your goals.
What are your goals? What are your weaknesses?
It's not a 100% laid out programme - it's a template. You can organise it a bunch of different ways.
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stevencloser wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »_dracarys_ wrote: »I personally did not like it, but that's likely due to personal biases. I'm not one who's going to tag on extra sets if it's not written in the program, so I always found myself doing the not-doing-jack-*kitten* variety. But I really didn't progress on that since I also one who needs volume to progress.
I also found the progression scheme extremely boring. If you follow it, you don't set PRs for 6-9 months depending on your lifts.
The best program I've been on other than a basic linear program is the Juggernaut Method. Lots of volume building up to a nice PR at the end of 4 months. It's been especially good for squats for me.
Reading this tells me you didn't actually know what you were doing with 5/3/1. Wendler even says in his book that you won't progress as quickly and that PRs come in more forms than just a new 1RM.
Aside from the volume, I found Juggernaut to be very similar. I mean, you're doing the same exact lifts.
I would tend to agree with you. I guess you could find it boring, I can accept that at least. If somebody doesn't make progress in 5/3/1 they're probably doing something wrong in their training or in their recovery, if not both. I'm not sure where the statement of PR's only every 6 to 9 months comes from. Why do you need more volume than others? Everybody needs volume to progress; volume is the sum of reps, sets, and training frequency, everybody needs some form of volume.
Yeah, shouldn't you get a new 1RM PR (assuming you're finishing all your workouts successfully) every 4 times you do a lift on a 5/3/1 scheme? Which is at least once per month.
There is no set schedule for how often you'll hit PR's, it comes and goes. That's why I hate those apps that say "oh, you should be hitting "x" reps today." Oh really? Unless the app has some complex algorithim that factors in every aspect of you life that's not possible. You'll go through periods we're you'll crush PR's and periods where your lifts will suck and you'll feel weak as *kitten*. It's all a trend and why your progress must be measured over a long period of time, 4 week, 8 weeks is really nothing when you look back at your years of training.
The SVR template is one of my favorite cookie-cutter templates from Jim. Unfortunately most people that know nothing about building a training program like to add or change what he has because they somehow know better than him, fail, and then say "aw 5/3/1 sucks" or "the progress is so slow".On some ways to run it: 3/5/1 or SVR or with jokers, for example.0 -
I thought I'd report back. I decided to go with the program. I was only able to get his original book, so I'm working from that right now, but I'll look for his newer book still.
I've done one full week (4 "days") so far. It is an adjustment, because I'm used to 5 sets of 5 reps, and this was only 3 sets. But the weight goes up each set, and I know next week will be more weight (but lower reps).
But overall, I really like it. I'm not so tired/sore that I can't go to the gym again the next day or two, which was a problem before (I was probably edging on overtraining and thus only getting to the gym about 1-2 times a week). I also like its flexibility. I'm going snowboarding tomorrow, so I did bench and squats today, and the program allows for that.
I also liked having a way to estimate my 1RM and know where to start my training from. I was kind of estimating before (although it seems like I was pretty close with most of my lifts), but now I feel like I can actually make progress because I have more direction.
For those who asked ... my goals are to maintain muscle as I lose the last bit of baby weight and to increase strength (as seen by increasing weight on my lifts). I also wanted something that would help me get into the gym more than the 1 or 2 times a week I was able to do before. So far, this program seems to be what I was looking for!0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »_dracarys_ wrote: »I personally did not like it, but that's likely due to personal biases. I'm not one who's going to tag on extra sets if it's not written in the program, so I always found myself doing the not-doing-jack-*kitten* variety. But I really didn't progress on that since I also one who needs volume to progress.
I also found the progression scheme extremely boring. If you follow it, you don't set PRs for 6-9 months depending on your lifts.
The best program I've been on other than a basic linear program is the Juggernaut Method. Lots of volume building up to a nice PR at the end of 4 months. It's been especially good for squats for me.
Reading this tells me you didn't actually know what you were doing with 5/3/1. Wendler even says in his book that you won't progress as quickly and that PRs come in more forms than just a new 1RM.
Aside from the volume, I found Juggernaut to be very similar. I mean, you're doing the same exact lifts.
I would tend to agree with you. I guess you could find it boring, I can accept that at least. If somebody doesn't make progress in 5/3/1 they're probably doing something wrong in their training or in their recovery, if not both. I'm not sure where the statement of PR's only every 6 to 9 months comes from. Why do you need more volume than others? Everybody needs volume to progress; volume is the sum of reps, sets, and training frequency, everybody needs some form of volume.
Yeah, shouldn't you get a new 1RM PR (assuming you're finishing all your workouts successfully) every 4 times you do a lift on a 5/3/1 scheme? Which is at least once per month.
He has you increasing your training max by 5lbs for upper body and 10 pounds for lower body each cycle (about 4 weeks), but not necessarily testing/estimating your 1RM again until you stall out. (Training max is 90% of 1RM, so it's kind of like a new max every month). And like someone mentioned, there are more PRs than just 1RM, and he talks about how to compare things like weight A for 5 reps vs weight B for 8 (B<A).0 -
Glad you like it! I really enjoyed this program in a deficit. There comes a time when you just can't do 5x5 and add weight every workout when you're not able to fuel it.0
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I hate OHP therefore also 5/3/10
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Warchortle wrote: »I hate OHP therefore also 5/3/1
Just take it out and do a second bench day: reg bench, speed bench, incline bench, close-grip, etc...
or replace it for a different overhead variation like push pressing, push jerking, etc...
or drop it and just do a bro day instead..
plenty of ways to skin that cat!0 -
Can I really take out OHP? I hate it but it gives me anxiety to not do it.0
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I promise, Jim Wendler will not visit you and yell at you for taking it out.
I used to not like OHP very much but now I like it better than bench. It's not that I am extraordinarily good at it. I just have grown to like it more. I started liking it more when I started pyramiding back down and doing + sets with the first set's weight.0 -
arditarose wrote: »Can I really take out OHP? I hate it but it gives me anxiety to not do it.
I ran 5/3/1 with the push press instead of the OHP (well I OHPed everything apart from the topset). I didn't die!
Wendler used to have a Q&A on EliteFTS and he said it was okay to replace OHP with close-grip or incline when asked. He also says the push press is a fine substitute in the e-book somewhere.
I've had a recent shoulder issue that nixed overhead work for me for a little while, so just doing some dumbbell bench instead until I can get overhead again properly.
The question is why do you hate it?0 -
Even with proper neck form I get a bad strain and aches in my neck whenever I press anything 135+. Dumbbells feel good though.0
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Warchortle wrote: »Even with proper neck form I get a bad strain and aches in my neck whenever I press anything 135+. Dumbbells feel good though.
Then use DB's.
Lot of guys I know running 531 have shoulder issues so they use DB's instead of a BB.
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stevencloser wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »_dracarys_ wrote: »I personally did not like it, but that's likely due to personal biases. I'm not one who's going to tag on extra sets if it's not written in the program, so I always found myself doing the not-doing-jack-*kitten* variety. But I really didn't progress on that since I also one who needs volume to progress.
I also found the progression scheme extremely boring. If you follow it, you don't set PRs for 6-9 months depending on your lifts.
The best program I've been on other than a basic linear program is the Juggernaut Method. Lots of volume building up to a nice PR at the end of 4 months. It's been especially good for squats for me.
Reading this tells me you didn't actually know what you were doing with 5/3/1. Wendler even says in his book that you won't progress as quickly and that PRs come in more forms than just a new 1RM.
Aside from the volume, I found Juggernaut to be very similar. I mean, you're doing the same exact lifts.
I would tend to agree with you. I guess you could find it boring, I can accept that at least. If somebody doesn't make progress in 5/3/1 they're probably doing something wrong in their training or in their recovery, if not both. I'm not sure where the statement of PR's only every 6 to 9 months comes from. Why do you need more volume than others? Everybody needs volume to progress; volume is the sum of reps, sets, and training frequency, everybody needs some form of volume.
Yeah, shouldn't you get a new 1RM PR (assuming you're finishing all your workouts successfully) every 4 times you do a lift on a 5/3/1 scheme? Which is at least once per month.
He has you increasing your training max by 5lbs for upper body and 10 pounds for lower body each cycle (about 4 weeks), but not necessarily testing/estimating your 1RM again until you stall out. (Training max is 90% of 1RM, so it's kind of like a new max every month). And like someone mentioned, there are more PRs than just 1RM, and he talks about how to compare things like weight A for 5 reps vs weight B for 8 (B<A).
Glad to hear you are enjoying the program so far. 5/3/1 is just a very basic introduction to intermediate lifting programs. You can tweak it so many different ways to make it more or less challenging as your needs/goals change.
I'll be curious to see what your thoughts are on it after a few cycles. Say 12-16 weeks.0 -
arditarose wrote: »Can I really take out OHP? I hate it but it gives me anxiety to not do it.
I ran 5/3/1 with the push press instead of the OHP (well I OHPed everything apart from the topset). I didn't die!
Wendler used to have a Q&A on EliteFTS and he said it was okay to replace OHP with close-grip or incline when asked. He also says the push press is a fine substitute in the e-book somewhere.
I've had a recent shoulder issue that nixed overhead work for me for a little while, so just doing some dumbbell bench instead until I can get overhead again properly.
The question is why do you hate it?
I guess I hate it because I've made almost zero progress on it. Ever.I promise, Jim Wendler will not visit you and yell at you for taking it out.
.
By god I hope not.0 -
arditarose wrote: »arditarose wrote: »Can I really take out OHP? I hate it but it gives me anxiety to not do it.
I ran 5/3/1 with the push press instead of the OHP (well I OHPed everything apart from the topset). I didn't die!
Wendler used to have a Q&A on EliteFTS and he said it was okay to replace OHP with close-grip or incline when asked. He also says the push press is a fine substitute in the e-book somewhere.
I've had a recent shoulder issue that nixed overhead work for me for a little while, so just doing some dumbbell bench instead until I can get overhead again properly.
The question is why do you hate it?
I guess I hate it because I've made almost zero progress on it. Ever.I promise, Jim Wendler will not visit you and yell at you for taking it out.
.
By god I hope not.
I had to remind myself of that at one point when I wanted to do front squats instead of back squats. His first book says that's fine as a main lift. His online FAQ says it's not. I started to worry about doing it right and then decided that he wasn't going to show up and yell at me about it so, really, it was fine.0 -
arditarose wrote: »arditarose wrote: »Can I really take out OHP? I hate it but it gives me anxiety to not do it.
I ran 5/3/1 with the push press instead of the OHP (well I OHPed everything apart from the topset). I didn't die!
Wendler used to have a Q&A on EliteFTS and he said it was okay to replace OHP with close-grip or incline when asked. He also says the push press is a fine substitute in the e-book somewhere.
I've had a recent shoulder issue that nixed overhead work for me for a little while, so just doing some dumbbell bench instead until I can get overhead again properly.
The question is why do you hate it?
I guess I hate it because I've made almost zero progress on it. Ever.I promise, Jim Wendler will not visit you and yell at you for taking it out.
.
By god I hope not.
I had to remind myself of that at one point when I wanted to do front squats instead of back squats. His first book says that's fine as a main lift. His online FAQ says it's not. I started to worry about doing it right and then decided that he wasn't going to show up and yell at me about it so, really, it was fine.
lol he might kick my butt though because I don't actually do 5/3/1 anymore. I just run my compound lifts that way but do PHUL. And I have been using 100% of my max instead of 90%.0 -
piperdown44 wrote: »Warchortle wrote: »Even with proper neck form I get a bad strain and aches in my neck whenever I press anything 135+. Dumbbells feel good though.
Then use DB's.
Lot of guys I know running 531 have shoulder issues so they use DB's instead of a BB.
That's what I do.0 -
The thing I like best about it is the flexibility of the accessory work. Focus on the main lift for the day, then you can kinda do whatever you want. I also like that can be a very quick workout, so it fits well within my lunch break.
For it's intended purpose, there is nothing I don't like about it. I've tweaked it a bit at times to fit my goals/preferences, but if you read the book(s), the mentality and approach to the program is fantastic.
If you know how to do the lifts, then I don't think there is a compelling reason NOT to do it if strength is your priority.
This is what I've found as well.0 -
The thing I like best about it is the flexibility of the accessory work. Focus on the main lift for the day, then you can kinda do whatever you want. I also like that can be a very quick workout, so it fits well within my lunch break.
For it's intended purpose, there is nothing I don't like about it. I've tweaked it a bit at times to fit my goals/preferences, but if you read the book(s), the mentality and approach to the program is fantastic.
If you know how to do the lifts, then I don't think there is a compelling reason NOT to do it if strength is your priority.
This is what I've found as well.
Me threed...0 -
arditarose wrote: »arditarose wrote: »Can I really take out OHP? I hate it but it gives me anxiety to not do it.
I ran 5/3/1 with the push press instead of the OHP (well I OHPed everything apart from the topset). I didn't die!
Wendler used to have a Q&A on EliteFTS and he said it was okay to replace OHP with close-grip or incline when asked. He also says the push press is a fine substitute in the e-book somewhere.
I've had a recent shoulder issue that nixed overhead work for me for a little while, so just doing some dumbbell bench instead until I can get overhead again properly.
The question is why do you hate it?
I guess I hate it because I've made almost zero progress on it. Ever.
We all have lifts like that...
the way I see it, you can either try to fix your progress or ditch OHP in favour of a lift that you feel fits towards your goals.
It's a tough lift to get anywhere with though, so don't beat yourself up too much over it.
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