I have a question about calorie deficit
Replies
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TavistockToad wrote: »You drink 4 energy drinks per evening... that might be something to do with why you can't sleep
no I don't I used to do that, before I started MFP0 -
^^, yes I am aware of non-fasting Glucose utililization and glycogen homeostasis.
Are *you* aware of the basal use rate, and the glycogen changes through the day in a person like OP ? I am.
As for what you call a 'myth,' please provide a scientific reference to support your stance.
Reference for you:
Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7.
Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man.
Acheson KJ1, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Anantharaman K, Flatt JP, Jéquier E.
Author information
Abstract
The metabolic balance method was performed on three men to investigate the fate of large excesses of carbohydrate. Glycogen stores, which were first depleted by diet (3 d, 8.35 +/- 0.27 MJ [1994 +/- 65 kcal] decreasing to 5.70 +/- 1.03 MJ [1361 +/- 247 kcal], 15% protein, 75% fat, 10% carbohydrate) and exercise, were repleted during 7 d carbohydrate overfeeding (11% protein, 3% fat, and 86% carbohydrate) providing 15.25 +/- 1.10 MJ (3642 +/- 263 kcal) on the first day, increasing progressively to 20.64 +/- 1.30 MJ (4930 +/- 311 kcal) on the last day of overfeeding. Glycogen depletion was again accomplished with 2 d of carbohydrate restriction (2.52 MJ/d [602 kcal/d], 85% protein, and 15% fat). Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (150 g lipid/d using approximately 475 g CHO/d) without postabsorptive hyperglycemia.
--
This is a nice article if you do not mind a little biochemistry:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1038/oby.2003.150/asset/oby.2003.150.pdf;jsessionid=2802E0D7DCCFB7F5CA575346ADEE19BD.f02t04?v=1&t=iidjp9vf&s=3d02e659fe69b427379397aa0bf9eac0079dd3570 -
Mosiak,
I am not sure I understand your problems eating breakfast and lunch, but one physical explanation might be gastroparesis. Have you been screened for diabetes ?
If it is hyperglycemia/diabetes related then as you lose weight and control your night-time carb binges, more normal eating patterns will hopefully be possible. I'd be optimistic.0 -
If you are consuming at a deficit you will lose weight; doesn't matter where those calories come from.
I could get into the speil about balancing those out for health reasons and whatnot but that's been well covered already so I'll skip it.
All I will say is that as a dude (virtual fist-pump to a fellow gamer), if you are grinding it right down to 1200ish calories a day you should just make sure those come from food. Your drink on top of that still only puts you at 1435; which is close enough to the default 1500 suggested min for guys to thwart the brow beatings
Good luck!0 -
Anvil,
A summary of post prandial lipogenesis after carb loading for you:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2874080/
Results from several studies indicate that a large carbohydrate meal does not result in a positive fat balance (Acheson et al, 1982, 1984, 1985, 1987; Hellerstein et al, 1991; Folch et al, 2001), particularly in the recovery period following exercise, when fat oxidation and glycogen storage have been shown to be favoured (Krzentowski et al, 1982; Bielinski et al, 1985; Broeder et al, 1991; Phelain et al, 1997; Folch et al, 2001). For example, in a recent study in nonobese men, we have shown that over the 8 h following ingestion of approx300 g of starch, only approx4 g of fat was synthesized when the subjects rested before the meal (Folch et al, 2001). When the subjects exercised before the meal, fat oxidation was maintained in the recovery period. As a consequence, a negative fat balance was observed in spite of the large excess of energy intake, with a preferential conversion of ingested glucose into glycogen.
Most studies of glucose disposal after an acute large carbohydrate meal (4.4–9.1 g glucose/kg) have been confined to men (Acheson et al, 1982, 1984, 1985, 1987; Hellerstein et al, 1991; Folch et al, 2001). In the studies conducted in women (Labayen et al, 1999; Bowden & McMurray, 2000), the amounts of carbohydrates ingested were much lower (approx1.7 g glucose/kg), and no comparison was made between the two phases of the ovarian cycle or between genders. However, over a 4-h period following a approx2082 kJ (496 kcal) meal with approx103 g of carbohydrates, Labayen et al (1999) observed that approx5.3 g of fat was synthesized, in lean premenopausal women. When similar amounts of carbohydrates were ingested in men, fat balance remained negative (Krzentowski et al, 1983, 1984; Burelle et al, 1999; Korach et al, 2002). A positive fat balance has only been reported in men with ingestion of much larger amounts of carbohydrates (approx300–600 g with 0.5–9 g of fat synthesized) (Acheson et al, 1982, 1984, 1985,1987; Hellerstein et al, 1991; Folch et al, 2001). Faix et al (1993) also reported that hepatic de novo lipogenesis, monitored over 9 h with ingestion of 30 g/h of carbohydrates, was two-fold more active in women during the follicular phase of the ovarian cycle than in men. Taken together, these observations suggest that women could rely more on whole-body and/or hepatic de novo lipogenesis in the disposal of dietary carbohydrates, with, accordingly a more positive fat balance. In contrast, the replenishment of glycogen stores when carbohydrates are ingested following exercise could be smaller in women than men (Nicklas et al, 1989; Tamopolsky et al, 1995), particularly in the follicular phase of the cycle (Nicklas et al, 1989). These phenomena could contribute to the larger fat deposition in women than men, which is frequently reported in epidemiological studies (Molarius et al, 1999).
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ericGold15 wrote: »Mosiak,
I am not sure I understand your problems eating breakfast and lunch, but one physical explanation might be gastroparesis. Have you been screened for diabetes ?
If it is hyperglycemia/diabetes related then as you lose weight and control your night-time carb binges, more normal eating patterns will hopefully be possible. I'd be optimistic.
Yea I was screened for diabetes not too long ago, I was not even prediabetic so I think I should be fine, I think maybe its mostly in my head because honestly I do not enjoy eating food that much. I never was much of a food eater to begin with, of course not counting candy and crisps which I used to consume at an alarming rate before I decided to change my way.
I am hoping my appitite will improve after I continue forcing down those two meals for a little while longer, but I really have to kick myself in the *kitten* to even get myself to consume those meals and I find myself forgetting one of them quite often, more often than I'd like. Like today for example, I skipped lunch simply because I had no hunger to remind me to eat so I have to always be aware of the time and when I should go and make food. by the time I realize I forgot lunch it was already nearly time for supper.
as for normal eating, I'm not sure what I'd consider normal, I feel like I am eating enough for my own body agh, this is one major headache lol0 -
I feel like I am eating plenty, I havent eaten this much actual food in 10 years, of course I used to eat a ton of candy every evening so I know exactly how I got this way. My demons are sugary sweets, that's my crack.
You could try a well-balanced nutrition shake. I'm partial to one by Advocare in "chocolate mocha." It'll bump you up by a couple hundred calories and could soothe your sweet cravings.0 -
If you are consuming at a deficit you will lose weight; doesn't matter where those calories come from.
I could get into the speil about balancing those out for health reasons and whatnot but that's been well covered already so I'll skip it.
All I will say is that as a dude (virtual fist-pump to a fellow gamer), if you are grinding it right down to 1200ish calories a day you should just make sure those come from food. Your drink on top of that still only puts you at 1435; which is close enough to the default 1500 suggested min for guys to thwart the brow beatings
Good luck!
To be honest 1200 is not my aim, not at all. but I find it difficult to actually even get that far up (without consuming candy like I used to)
Candy and crisps along with sugary drinks by the gallons used to be my main source of calories for 10 years, and obviously I over consumed in this time because I ended up at a whopping 315 lbs. I never ate fast food, I never really ate ice cream or cookies or anything like that it was just tiny bite sized pieces of candy over the span of 8-12 hours per evening along with lots and lots of energy drinks.. yicks .. talk about bad diet.
It is my hope that if I wait long enough I will eventually train my body to accept meals I used to ignore for so long
-fist pump-
and thanks
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If you are consuming at a deficit you will lose weight; doesn't matter where those calories come from.
I could get into the speil about balancing those out for health reasons and whatnot but that's been well covered already so I'll skip it.
All I will say is that as a dude (virtual fist-pump to a fellow gamer), if you are grinding it right down to 1200ish calories a day you should just make sure those come from food. Your drink on top of that still only puts you at 1435; which is close enough to the default 1500 suggested min for guys to thwart the brow beatings
Good luck!
To be honest 1200 is not my aim, not at all. but I find it difficult to actually even get that far up (without consuming candy like I used to)
Candy and crisps along with sugary drinks by the gallons used to be my main source of calories for 10 years, and obviously I over consumed in this time because I ended up at a whopping 315 lbs. I never ate fast food, I never really ate ice cream or cookies or anything like that it was just tiny bite sized pieces of candy over the span of 8-12 hours per evening along with lots and lots of energy drinks.. yicks .. talk about bad diet.
It is my hope that if I wait long enough I will eventually train my body to accept meals I used to ignore for so long
-fist pump-
and thanks
You mentioned you don't like peanut butter. You don't have to eat it if you don't like it. Plain nuts can do the job just as well. Walnuts, cashew, pecan, almonds, whole peanuts..etc. You might find a kind you like. They contain a lot of calories, good fats and some nutrients, including a small amount of protein.0 -
OP ... your current methodology should only be attempted under the prescription of and supervision by a doctor. You are partaking in a self prescribe VLCD.0
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I would look into getting a blender and learn how to make nutritious smoothies. You can add any combination of fruits and veggies, plus a yummy tasting protein powder. I have one everyday for lunch, it is filling, tasty and nutritious.0
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ericGold15 wrote: »^^, yes I am aware of non-fasting Glucose utililization and glycogen homeostasis.
Are *you* aware of the basal use rate, and the glycogen changes through the day in a person like OP ? I am.
As for what you call a 'myth,' please provide a scientific reference to support your stance.
Reference for you:
Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7.
Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man.
Acheson KJ1, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Anantharaman K, Flatt JP, Jéquier E.
Author information
Abstract
The metabolic balance method was performed on three men to investigate the fate of large excesses of carbohydrate. Glycogen stores, which were first depleted by diet (3 d, 8.35 +/- 0.27 MJ [1994 +/- 65 kcal] decreasing to 5.70 +/- 1.03 MJ [1361 +/- 247 kcal], 15% protein, 75% fat, 10% carbohydrate) and exercise, were repleted during 7 d carbohydrate overfeeding (11% protein, 3% fat, and 86% carbohydrate) providing 15.25 +/- 1.10 MJ (3642 +/- 263 kcal) on the first day, increasing progressively to 20.64 +/- 1.30 MJ (4930 +/- 311 kcal) on the last day of overfeeding. Glycogen depletion was again accomplished with 2 d of carbohydrate restriction (2.52 MJ/d [602 kcal/d], 85% protein, and 15% fat). Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (150 g lipid/d using approximately 475 g CHO/d) without postabsorptive hyperglycemia.
--
This is a nice article if you do not mind a little biochemistry:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1038/oby.2003.150/asset/oby.2003.150.pdf;jsessionid=2802E0D7DCCFB7F5CA575346ADEE19BD.f02t04?v=1&t=iidjp9vf&s=3d02e659fe69b427379397aa0bf9eac0079dd357
So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
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ericGold15 wrote: »^^, yes I am aware of non-fasting Glucose utililization and glycogen homeostasis.
Are *you* aware of the basal use rate, and the glycogen changes through the day in a person like OP ? I am.
As for what you call a 'myth,' please provide a scientific reference to support your stance.
Reference for you:
Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7.
Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man.
Acheson KJ1, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Anantharaman K, Flatt JP, Jéquier E.
Author information
Abstract
The metabolic balance method was performed on three men to investigate the fate of large excesses of carbohydrate. Glycogen stores, which were first depleted by diet (3 d, 8.35 +/- 0.27 MJ [1994 +/- 65 kcal] decreasing to 5.70 +/- 1.03 MJ [1361 +/- 247 kcal], 15% protein, 75% fat, 10% carbohydrate) and exercise, were repleted during 7 d carbohydrate overfeeding (11% protein, 3% fat, and 86% carbohydrate) providing 15.25 +/- 1.10 MJ (3642 +/- 263 kcal) on the first day, increasing progressively to 20.64 +/- 1.30 MJ (4930 +/- 311 kcal) on the last day of overfeeding. Glycogen depletion was again accomplished with 2 d of carbohydrate restriction (2.52 MJ/d [602 kcal/d], 85% protein, and 15% fat). Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (150 g lipid/d using approximately 475 g CHO/d) without postabsorptive hyperglycemia.
--
This is a nice article if you do not mind a little biochemistry:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1038/oby.2003.150/asset/oby.2003.150.pdf;jsessionid=2802E0D7DCCFB7F5CA575346ADEE19BD.f02t04?v=1&t=iidjp9vf&s=3d02e659fe69b427379397aa0bf9eac0079dd357
So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
Yeah, weird, weird, weird rabbit trail eric started this discussion down.
So not helpful to the poor OP.
The guy needs to eat more. Timing doesn't matter.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »ericGold15 wrote: »^^, yes I am aware of non-fasting Glucose utililization and glycogen homeostasis.
Are *you* aware of the basal use rate, and the glycogen changes through the day in a person like OP ? I am.
As for what you call a 'myth,' please provide a scientific reference to support your stance.
Reference for you:
Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7.
Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man.
Acheson KJ1, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Anantharaman K, Flatt JP, Jéquier E.
Author information
Abstract
The metabolic balance method was performed on three men to investigate the fate of large excesses of carbohydrate. Glycogen stores, which were first depleted by diet (3 d, 8.35 +/- 0.27 MJ [1994 +/- 65 kcal] decreasing to 5.70 +/- 1.03 MJ [1361 +/- 247 kcal], 15% protein, 75% fat, 10% carbohydrate) and exercise, were repleted during 7 d carbohydrate overfeeding (11% protein, 3% fat, and 86% carbohydrate) providing 15.25 +/- 1.10 MJ (3642 +/- 263 kcal) on the first day, increasing progressively to 20.64 +/- 1.30 MJ (4930 +/- 311 kcal) on the last day of overfeeding. Glycogen depletion was again accomplished with 2 d of carbohydrate restriction (2.52 MJ/d [602 kcal/d], 85% protein, and 15% fat). Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (150 g lipid/d using approximately 475 g CHO/d) without postabsorptive hyperglycemia.
--
This is a nice article if you do not mind a little biochemistry:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1038/oby.2003.150/asset/oby.2003.150.pdf;jsessionid=2802E0D7DCCFB7F5CA575346ADEE19BD.f02t04?v=1&t=iidjp9vf&s=3d02e659fe69b427379397aa0bf9eac0079dd357
So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
Yeah, weird, weird, weird rabbit trail eric started this discussion down.
So not helpful to the poor OP.
The guy needs to eat more. Timing doesn't matter.
^ Absolutely correct, that's the bottom line. The OP needs to eat more and he doesn't need fiction shoved down his throat that eating at night will make him fat and make his muscles fall off.0 -
Some more protein, ditch the energy drink BS and choose the full fat versions of dairy would be a good start.0
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Some more protein, ditch the energy drink BS and choose the full fat versions of dairy would be a good start.
He has the calories for the energy drink AND the dairy. He has already made huge strides by quitting sweets and snacks, so robbing himself of his last joys would be counterproductive to his diet. If later along the way he decides to reduce his energy drink intake even further, that would be his choice and only when he is comfortable enough that he would be able to keep it up.0 -
I didn't say that one soda at night is going to make a person fat. I don't think it, either.So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
I am telling you and PeachyCarol that carb loading leads to lipogenesis. As for disposition to glycogen, it happens when there is room for it. E.g., If a person exercises and then carb loads, the carbs will first go towards repletion of the glycogen. Anvil, yes, some studies show no net fat gain from men as I referenced; others do (as I referenced later.) Do not confuse NET fat changes with de novo fat synthesis, which is what I am talking about and you out of ignorance called a myth.
Don't misunderstand -- this is not equal to "gaining fat while dieting" because fat is used throughout the day so NET, fat stores decrease during dieting. A less than optimal diet strategy from the standpoint of losing fat while maintaining muscle though would be one that uses (some) fraction of muscle breakdown for quick energy during exercise while carb loading with (relatively) full glycogen stores at times distanced from the exercise.
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ericGold15 wrote: »
I didn't say that one soda at night is going to make a person fat. I don't think it, either.So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
I am telling you and PeachyCarol that carb loading leads to lipogenesis. As for disposition to glycogen, it happens when there is room for it. E.g., If a person exercises and then carb loads, the carbs will first go towards repletion of the glycogen. Anvil, yes, some studies show no net fat gain from men as I referenced; others do (as I referenced later.) Do not confuse NET fat changes with de novo fat synthesis, which is what I am talking about and you out of ignorance called a myth.
Don't misunderstand -- this is not equal to "gaining fat while dieting" because fat is used throughout the day so NET, fat stores decrease during dieting. A less than optimal diet strategy from the standpoint of losing fat while maintaining muscle though would be one that uses (some) fraction of muscle breakdown for quick energy during exercise while carb loading with (relatively) full glycogen stores at times distanced from the exercise.
Ok
Given the context, what's your actual point of bringing this up? The OP is creating a deficit that's a minimum of 1300 calories per day, and does not understand the need to eat more food. He's being told it's okay to consume a 250 calorie drink given his deficit, and some are trying to explain a point that's making no contact, which is eat more food or at least protein to avoid breakdown of vital muscle like, oh, I don't know, the heart, in the name of dieting. What's the helpfulness of the information you're providing, given this context? I honestly do not understand and it's possible others don't as well
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ericGold15 wrote: »
I didn't say that one soda at night is going to make a person fat. I don't think it, either.So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
I am telling you and PeachyCarol that carb loading leads to lipogenesis. As for disposition to glycogen, it happens when there is room for it. E.g., If a person exercises and then carb loads, the carbs will first go towards repletion of the glycogen. Anvil, yes, some studies show no net fat gain from men as I referenced; others do (as I referenced later.) Do not confuse NET fat changes with de novo fat synthesis, which is what I am talking about and you out of ignorance called a myth.
Don't misunderstand -- this is not equal to "gaining fat while dieting" because fat is used throughout the day so NET, fat stores decrease during dieting. A less than optimal diet strategy from the standpoint of losing fat while maintaining muscle though would be one that uses (some) fraction of muscle breakdown for quick energy during exercise while carb loading with (relatively) full glycogen stores at times distanced from the exercise.
He's drinking a 250 calorie drink at night. Not carb loading. How are you helping him? Just... start another thread or something, okay?
This guy needs more protein and calories to retain lean mass. Your point has nothing to do with his situation.0 -
I don't need any preaching about the health risks of energy drinks I am all too familar with those, but my question is, even if my calorie intake is between 1200-1400 calories per day which includes 1 high calorie drink in the evening, and I still going to be losing weight? or will that one sugary drink ruin everything and I will gain weight?
Your internal organs might be gaining a coating of fat from the energy drink, so I would consider the sugar free version and some alternative more nutritious calorie source.
If you're referring to the idea of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease and the Lustig hypothesis that it is caused by hepatic denovolipogenesis of fructose... again, he's in a calorie deficit. His body isn't going to be looking for ways to perform de novo lipogensis to incredible amounts because his body is looking at mobilizing fats to burn to make up for the deficit.
I'm pretty sure in the millions of years of liver evolution and habitual starvation during it, the signal has evolved to avoid wasting turning sugars into fats during energy deficit that mobilizes removing fats.0 -
ericGold15 wrote: »^^, yes I am aware of non-fasting Glucose utililization and glycogen homeostasis.
Are *you* aware of the basal use rate, and the glycogen changes through the day in a person like OP ? I am.
As for what you call a 'myth,' please provide a scientific reference to support your stance.
Reference for you:
Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7.
Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man.
Acheson KJ1, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Anantharaman K, Flatt JP, Jéquier E.
Author information
Abstract
The metabolic balance method was performed on three men to investigate the fate of large excesses of carbohydrate. Glycogen stores, which were first depleted by diet (3 d, 8.35 +/- 0.27 MJ [1994 +/- 65 kcal] decreasing to 5.70 +/- 1.03 MJ [1361 +/- 247 kcal], 15% protein, 75% fat, 10% carbohydrate) and exercise, were repleted during 7 d carbohydrate overfeeding (11% protein, 3% fat, and 86% carbohydrate) providing 15.25 +/- 1.10 MJ (3642 +/- 263 kcal) on the first day, increasing progressively to 20.64 +/- 1.30 MJ (4930 +/- 311 kcal) on the last day of overfeeding. Glycogen depletion was again accomplished with 2 d of carbohydrate restriction (2.52 MJ/d [602 kcal/d], 85% protein, and 15% fat). Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (150 g lipid/d using approximately 475 g CHO/d) without postabsorptive hyperglycemia.
--
This is a nice article if you do not mind a little biochemistry:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1038/oby.2003.150/asset/oby.2003.150.pdf;jsessionid=2802E0D7DCCFB7F5CA575346ADEE19BD.f02t04?v=1&t=iidjp9vf&s=3d02e659fe69b427379397aa0bf9eac0079dd357
From your own article, glycogen storage capacity is around 15 g/ kg. Even for a man at a normal 165 lb weight (depending on height), that's still 75kg of body mass, resulting in 75kg*15grams/kg = 1125grams of glucose stored. Is OP downing 4400 calories or more (particularly if overweight) of energy drinks at night? If so, yeah, cut back OP, 4400 calories of energy drinks is going to make losing weight hard regardless of de novo lipogensis.0 -
@Mosiak
I am someone who doesn't enjoy eating breakfast and lunch too. Hate the full feeling.
I have found a protein bar, I stock up on a wide variety of them at Costco, and orange along with my coffee gives me an easy to manage breakfast.
Lunch is usually either cottage cheese or yogurt with a selection of fruit and veg on the side, pre chopping in bulk and keeping them in containers in the fridge makes it easy. Again this is a decent amount of calories, eat full fat dairy, and protein, without having an uncomfortable feeling of fullness during the day.
Once you have got used to eating at those times ( I do find it helpful to do so) you can increase the foods density.
Well done on what you have accomplished so far, and for reaching out for guidance.
Cheers, h.0 -
ericGold15 wrote: »
I didn't say that one soda at night is going to make a person fat. I don't think it, either.So from a study involving massive, chronic carb overfeeding (and a significant caloric surplus) over a 7-day period, you're extrapolating that drinking a soda at night is going to cause net fat gains? Even that study showed that a man "can accommodate a gain of approximately 500g of carbohydrates before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass." Seems to disprove your point rather than go toward proving it.
I don't see your point at all in the second study. Basically it says that men in carb surplus showed no de novo lipogenesis, while premenopausal menstruating women did. And that even in a caloric surplus, no net fat synthesis occurred in men even after consuming 300g of starch. So again, I fail to see how you can use that study to support that drinking one soda at night is going to make somebody fat.
I am telling you and PeachyCarol that carb loading leads to lipogenesis. As for disposition to glycogen, it happens when there is room for it. E.g., If a person exercises and then carb loads, the carbs will first go towards repletion of the glycogen. Anvil, yes, some studies show no net fat gain from men as I referenced; others do (as I referenced later.) Do not confuse NET fat changes with de novo fat synthesis, which is what I am talking about and you out of ignorance called a myth.
Don't misunderstand -- this is not equal to "gaining fat while dieting" because fat is used throughout the day so NET, fat stores decrease during dieting. A less than optimal diet strategy from the standpoint of losing fat while maintaining muscle though would be one that uses (some) fraction of muscle breakdown for quick energy during exercise while carb loading with (relatively) full glycogen stores at times distanced from the exercise.
You do notice that muscle breakdown during exercise is due to empty glycogen, and thus those two things are mutually exclusive unless you eat so much carbs as to fill up your glycogen from 0 to full and then some?0 -
ericGold15 wrote: »[...Do not confuse NET fat changes with de novo fat synthesis, which is what I am talking about and you out of ignorance called a myth...
You're thoroughly confused. I did not call de novo lipogenesis a myth. I'm well aware that such a thing exists. What I called a myth was when you started spouting foolishness about calorie intake at night making you gain weight. If you truly believe that, I'll just disengage and let you enjoy your ignorance.0
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