Hedonic Hunger
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I just thought I was greedy didn't realise i could have called it something else
I don't like the idea of surgery for weight loss
I don't like the idea of using drugs for weight loss
Not bringing any of the good stuff into my place or avoiding certain restaurants, how is that going to work
Regarding the discussion re fault, yes it was my fault but I don't focus on that, not really a person who looks back, what I can do is slowly transform myself
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Now you know I've always been interested in the concept of eating addiction and annoyed by the use of "food addiction" as an excuse. I also dislike the underpinning rat studies. I know you have experience in the field of addiction and I only speak as a layman but I do believe that the treatment options differ from substance addiction to behavioural and that is an important distinction
But I think I still stand by my comments: for most, taking responsibility for their actions around food, internalising rather than externalising can go a long way to changing overeating
And I do think "hedonistic eating" risks becoming a pretty label to latch on to that implies that it's not my fault
There is too much it's not your fault and not enough "take responsibility, make the changes, commit and it gradually becomes easier as your habits change"
I tend to think using terms like fault isn't particularly helpful. Obviously we'd be lying to ourselves and others to say weight, particularly obesity levels, doesn't have health consequences. I also think losing weight acknowledges saying it something under our control, but I see a subtle distinguish between saying "it is under our control to change it for the better", and saying "having been this way is our fault." They both sound very close to saying the same thing, but I feel calling it fault makes it sound like viewing oneself or others as bad people for being overweight, that there is something worth blaming or judging.
In the case of the hedonic hunger concept, I think it can be just one way of looking at things. Some people will probably hold out that there's a miracle pill, or magic surgery that ends all mental sense of hunger, but I don't think that's ultimately what the article or the people proposing the hypothesis are saying is by any means the only way to lose weight. The article mentions that in some instances, it produces behavorial strategies that some find useful - plenty that wouldn't look out of place as decent advise here on MFP, some that looks like advise I'd tell someone is a decent start, but that I don't think is the best in mental health as permanent changes, like food avoidance as a long term strategy.
For me "fault" is actually a useful term...I had a faulty perception of myself and my level of contentment at being overweight ...the fault of my obesity was down to my laziness and overconsumption. For me, taking responsibility was part of the solution, whether I wanted to or not...I am the only one living in my body, I am the only one to blame for the state my body was in...blaming something external is unhelpful to me. And my success at overcoming it is mine too.
It is my fault I made bad choices. The rest is a semantic argument in my opinion.
I don't say what works for me, speaks to everyone. But it is as valid an approach.
I really don't see how a person who uses any of the methods described in the article to lose weight, and maintain that loss for years, in total psychological comfort, has "failed to take responsibility". That accusation is nonsensical (since they clearly have taken responsibility) and is really beside the point, as far as I'm concerned.
I also don't see how recognizing the influence of larger social factors, like the ones described by @lemurcat12 , detracts from success at combating them. In fact it's quite helpful to know what they are.
Seeing people dismiss research not on its merits, but for ideological reasons, saddens me.
Let me repeat myself "It is my fault I made bad choices. The rest is a semantic argument in my opinion.
I don't say what works for me, speaks to everyone. But it is as valid an approach"
I assume this ad wouldn't translate either ...
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While I understand the discussion on responsibility and fault I happen to like the term hedonic hunger as a descriptor of a type of hunger which doesn't, for me, exclude personal responsibility. I've personally disliked the term emotional eater because I'm not eating to compensate for emotional pain, etc.....
A few days ago I largely ravished a pack of Costco tamales (packs of 15 tamales) over several meals - I'm temporarily in the US, I can't get these in Germany or France and they are a flavor I find highly pleasurably - they remind me of my childhood, my family and my cultural upbringing. Certainly a hedonic decision to check out the fridge and pull just one more out. And I let my self do it - knowing full well I would need to deal with it this week. My control was my responsibility (I didn't eat the entire 15 but ... Damn ). The term allows to think about hunger for pleasure *as a physical desire* vs other hungers. One still owns it.0 -
Now you know I've always been interested in the concept of eating addiction and annoyed by the use of "food addiction" as an excuse. I also dislike the underpinning rat studies. I know you have experience in the field of addiction and I only speak as a layman but I do believe that the treatment options differ from substance addiction to behavioural and that is an important distinction
But I think I still stand by my comments: for most, taking responsibility for their actions around food, internalising rather than externalising can go a long way to changing overeating
And I do think "hedonistic eating" risks becoming a pretty label to latch on to that implies that it's not my fault
There is too much it's not your fault and not enough "take responsibility, make the changes, commit and it gradually becomes easier as your habits change"
I tend to think using terms like fault isn't particularly helpful. Obviously we'd be lying to ourselves and others to say weight, particularly obesity levels, doesn't have health consequences. I also think losing weight acknowledges saying it something under our control, but I see a subtle distinguish between saying "it is under our control to change it for the better", and saying "having been this way is our fault." They both sound very close to saying the same thing, but I feel calling it fault makes it sound like viewing oneself or others as bad people for being overweight, that there is something worth blaming or judging.
In the case of the hedonic hunger concept, I think it can be just one way of looking at things. Some people will probably hold out that there's a miracle pill, or magic surgery that ends all mental sense of hunger, but I don't think that's ultimately what the article or the people proposing the hypothesis are saying is by any means the only way to lose weight. The article mentions that in some instances, it produces behavorial strategies that some find useful - plenty that wouldn't look out of place as decent advise here on MFP, some that looks like advise I'd tell someone is a decent start, but that I don't think is the best in mental health as permanent changes, like food avoidance as a long term strategy.
For me "fault" is actually a useful term...I had a faulty perception of myself and my level of contentment at being overweight ...the fault of my obesity was down to my laziness and overconsumption. For me, taking responsibility was part of the solution, whether I wanted to or not...I am the only one living in my body, I am the only one to blame for the state my body was in...blaming something external is unhelpful to me. And my success at overcoming it is mine too.
It is my fault I made bad choices. The rest is a semantic argument in my opinion.
I don't say what works for me, speaks to everyone. But it is as valid an approach.
I really don't see how a person who uses any of the methods described in the article to lose weight, and maintain that loss for years, in total psychological comfort, has "failed to take responsibility". That accusation is nonsensical (since they clearly have taken responsibility) and is really beside the point, as far as I'm concerned.
I also don't see how recognizing the influence of larger social factors, like the ones described by @lemurcat12 , detracts from success at combating them. In fact it's quite helpful to know what they are.
Seeing people dismiss research not on its merits, but for ideological reasons, saddens me.
Let me repeat myself "It is my fault I made bad choices. The rest is a semantic argument in my opinion.
I don't say what works for me, speaks to everyone. But it is as valid an approach"
I assume this ad wouldn't translate either ...
Go for it if you want to, up to you.
For myself, I don't think I did a thing "wrong" when I gained. I'd just been living in an unconscious sort of way, in the default mode that defines the habits of ~69% of North Americans - eating the food that's most easily available, in accordance with social norms; hardly walking (not least because the place I lived in was designed for cars, not people). (Also, in my case, the gain correlated with use of a particular medication, I'd had a normal BMI all my life prior to that.) I'm not going to punish myself for sleepwalking through my given culture, taking it for granted. And I don't blame others for doing that, either.
When I woke up from that, I was able to do what I needed to do. And honestly, I can't say I chose the moment that happened, either. I'd made a couple of half-hearted attempts before then; the fire really came in after changes in life circumstances set the stage.
Most overweight people are sleepwalking. Caught between culture and biology. That doesn't mean they can't wake up - many of us have - but pretending they've actively chosen to be that way is cruel, imo.
The alternative explanation is that individuals are to blame for being overweight or obese, that the 69% of contemporary North Americans who are overweight or obese consciously made that choice. Does this seem plausible to you? It doesn't to me.0 -
The alternative explanation is that individuals are to blame for being overweight or obese, that the 69% of contemporary North Americans who are overweight or obese consciously made that choice. Does this seem plausible to you? It doesn't to me.
Absolutely plausible ...every single time they make the decision to eat, or to not move
The alternative is that someone else is to blame
And where is the power there?
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The alternative explanation is that individuals are to blame for being overweight or obese, that the 69% of contemporary North Americans who are overweight or obese consciously made that choice. Does this seem plausible to you? It doesn't to me.
Absolutely plausible ...every single time they make the decision to eat, or to not move
The alternative is that someone else is to blame
And where is the power there?
False dichotomy. Why does it have to be a blamable state at all? Blame says something was wrong. That's my problem with the language. I don't see it as being particularly different from people that put too much into the concept of clean food - it is a language that moralizes weight the way clean moralizes foods.
I do think people made a choice, and yes the choice has consequences, but that's different than simply saying the choice or the results were wrong. In a way, I see calling a weight wrong actually putting other people in charge of one's body. It is saying other human beings may set a level or weight that is appropriate for me, and I have an obligation to be in those parameters for them.
As for translation, no this isn't an American versus English thing. We have signs in America for gyms saying that exact same line of "just be ugly". Part of my feeling on this topic is actually informed by a Cognitive Science research who lives in England. She told me psychology finds guilt doesn't actually tend to change behavior, it is mostly going to change where one expresses it. I see terms like fault and blame as types of guilt. I don't think someone has to feel fault or blame in order to feel what I see as the helpful belief that one is in control of weight.0 -
Why shouldn't it be a blameable state? Why is it OK to glorify personalise choice over consequence. Why is it OK for a health system to be bursting to the seams dealing with self-inflicted issues associated with the "obesity epidemic" (OK even i appreciate that's a tabloid headline)
So I'm not allowed to personally feel to blame for my own weight gain? Nor use that feeling nor my guilt at potentially exacerbating health issues to bolster my commitment to losing weight ..because goddamit losing weight and sticking to it is hard...it's not easy for anyone and I will use all the tools at my disposal including channelling my negative emotions that it is my fault in the first place, that I am letting down and affecting others by my own inability to stick to it.
Because in this psychological reasoning that purportedly doesn't help ?
You appear to be stating that I, who benefited from taking action, am wrong in my own determination and I have been clear that I am talking about personal approaches to achieving a weight and fitness goal that is the reason we have all come together here0 -
when you start to "take the blame" and come out of "sleep walking" i think thats when you start to take action.
i have blamed the depo, i have blamed types of food, but actually all i needed was some knowledge (through mfp) and some determination to get me going. really didnt think i could do it until i got the app.
i think some people take it personally the blaming thing but its just abit of taking ownership to get cracking. You dont have to dwell on it as i said before so i dont think its a bad thing at all.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Fair enough, but again if we are talking a population of people who have become overweight or even obese, a subset of people insisting "but it's so much harder for me" as I often see here, is rather irritating. I think focusing on how you are facing such a harder time than others is a good way to subconsciously say "I can't" or doom yourself to failure, also. And given what we see about how easily a significant majority in our population will become overweight and obese given the right environment, I think it's rather silly to assume that people who feel tempted, etc., are the outliers. And that smaller amount not that into food probably have other things they struggle with, of course.
But what if it is, actually, harder for some than others?
We have 0 evidence that it is. We have lots of evidence that a majority of people experience hedonic hunger given the right environment. As someone who has been obese and is pretty analytical about it, I know darn well that my hunger signals tend to be related to habit and availability/attractiveness of food, and not simply this idealized notion of people being drawn to eat only what they need to maintain their weight. So I don't think that someone else having the same experience is dealing with some greater demon. It's normal and, as I pointed out, makes sense evolutionarily.You can be irritated by that if you want to, but you might as well be annoyed that some people are taller than others.
I can see that people are taller than me. I can't see any reason to believe that one person 50 lbs overweight is overweight because it's so much harder for her and someone else is because -- I dunno what you are even claiming the cause is here -- some other reason. Makes sense to me to assume that if people become overweight significantly that they tend to eat for reasons beyond just fueling their bodies. And most people are happy to talk about being drawn to eat tasty foods.I don't see how work that highlights why and how things are hard removes freedom - on the contrary, knowledge like that equips people with tools to widen the scope of their freedom.
No clue what you are going on about here, as I said nothing of the sort. Could you point to what I said that you are questioning?0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »While I understand the discussion on responsibility and fault I happen to like the term hedonic hunger as a descriptor of a type of hunger which doesn't, for me, exclude personal responsibility. I've personally disliked the term emotional eater because I'm not eating to compensate for emotional pain, etc.....
A few days ago I largely ravished a pack of Costco tamales (packs of 15 tamales) over several meals - I'm temporarily in the US, I can't get these in Germany or France and they are a flavor I find highly pleasurably - they remind me of my childhood, my family and my cultural upbringing. Certainly a hedonic decision to check out the fridge and pull just one more out. And I let my self do it - knowing full well I would need to deal with it this week. My control was my responsibility (I didn't eat the entire 15 but ... Damn ). The term allows to think about hunger for pleasure *as a physical desire* vs other hungers. One still owns it.
I agree with this.0 -
Now you know I've always been interested in the concept of eating addiction and annoyed by the use of "food addiction" as an excuse. I also dislike the underpinning rat studies. I know you have experience in the field of addiction and I only speak as a layman but I do believe that the treatment options differ from substance addiction to behavioural and that is an important distinction
But I think I still stand by my comments: for most, taking responsibility for their actions around food, internalising rather than externalising can go a long way to changing overeating
And I do think "hedonistic eating" risks becoming a pretty label to latch on to that implies that it's not my fault
There is too much it's not your fault and not enough "take responsibility, make the changes, commit and it gradually becomes easier as your habits change"
I tend to think using terms like fault isn't particularly helpful. Obviously we'd be lying to ourselves and others to say weight, particularly obesity levels, doesn't have health consequences. I also think losing weight acknowledges saying it something under our control, but I see a subtle distinguish between saying "it is under our control to change it for the better", and saying "having been this way is our fault." They both sound very close to saying the same thing, but I feel calling it fault makes it sound like viewing oneself or others as bad people for being overweight, that there is something worth blaming or judging.
In the case of the hedonic hunger concept, I think it can be just one way of looking at things. Some people will probably hold out that there's a miracle pill, or magic surgery that ends all mental sense of hunger, but I don't think that's ultimately what the article or the people proposing the hypothesis are saying is by any means the only way to lose weight. The article mentions that in some instances, it produces behavorial strategies that some find useful - plenty that wouldn't look out of place as decent advise here on MFP, some that looks like advise I'd tell someone is a decent start, but that I don't think is the best in mental health as permanent changes, like food avoidance as a long term strategy.
For me "fault" is actually a useful term...I had a faulty perception of myself and my level of contentment at being overweight ...the fault of my obesity was down to my laziness and overconsumption. For me, taking responsibility was part of the solution, whether I wanted to or not...I am the only one living in my body, I am the only one to blame for the state my body was in...blaming something external is unhelpful to me. And my success at overcoming it is mine too.
It is my fault I made bad choices. The rest is a semantic argument in my opinion.
I don't say what works for me, speaks to everyone. But it is as valid an approach.
I really don't see how a person who uses any of the methods described in the article to lose weight, and maintain that loss for years, in total psychological comfort, has "failed to take responsibility". That accusation is nonsensical (since they clearly have taken responsibility) and is really beside the point, as far as I'm concerned.
I also don't see how recognizing the influence of larger social factors, like the ones described by @lemurcat12 , detracts from success at combating them. In fact it's quite helpful to know what they are.
Seeing people dismiss research not on its merits, but for ideological reasons, saddens me.
When I first started sending trigger foods home with my fiance, he said, "Get some will power!" I explained to him that I am taking responsibility by arranging to not have it here, tempting me.0 -
But what if it is, actually, harder for some than others?
We have 0 evidence that it is. We have lots of evidence that a majority of people experience hedonic hunger given the right environment. As someone who has been obese
My understanding is that there is excellent evidence that some people get a larger dopamine surge when they are tempted by pleasurable foods and some people are more sensitive to the effects of dopamine. Dopamine is the same brain chemical that triggers desire if you're a gambling addict, an alcoholic, or strongly drawn to sugary treats. Biochemically, some people have a bigger fight to overcome urges. Doesn't mean it's impossible or that personal responsibility doesn't exist. Just that it's harder and it may make sense for them to reduce stimuli in their environment that trigger a dopamine surge.
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robingmurphy wrote: »But what if it is, actually, harder for some than others?
We have 0 evidence that it is. We have lots of evidence that a majority of people experience hedonic hunger given the right environment. As someone who has been obese
My understanding is that there is excellent evidence that some people get a larger dopamine surge when they are tempted by pleasurable foods and some people are more sensitive to the effects of dopamine. Dopamine is the same brain chemical that triggers desire if you're a gambling addict, an alcoholic, or strongly drawn to sugary treats. Biochemically, some people have a bigger fight to overcome urges. Doesn't mean it's impossible or that personal responsibility doesn't exist. Just that it's harder and it may make sense for them to reduce stimuli in their environment that trigger a dopamine surge.
Dopamine is a hormone released during anticipation of pleasure, .also released whilst listening to emotional music or petting puppies
This is an interesting read http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3124340/0 -
Why shouldn't it be a blameable state? Why is it OK to glorify personalise choice over consequence. Why is it OK for a health system to be bursting to the seams dealing with self-inflicted issues associated with the "obesity epidemic" (OK even i appreciate that's a tabloid headline)
So I'm not allowed to personally feel to blame for my own weight gain? Nor use that feeling nor my guilt at potentially exacerbating health issues to bolster my commitment to losing weight ..because goddamit losing weight and sticking to it is hard...it's not easy for anyone and I will use all the tools at my disposal including channelling my negative emotions that it is my fault in the first place, that I am letting down and affecting others by my own inability to stick to it.
Because in this psychological reasoning that purportedly doesn't help ?
You appear to be stating that I, who benefited from taking action, am wrong in my own determination and I have been clear that I am talking about personal approaches to achieving a weight and fitness goal that is the reason we have all come together here
Why? For one, it works, although saying consequences implies falsely that I've claimed denying consequences - there's a difference between honesty and shaming. If you want to personally feel guilty over your weight, go for it. Same as your body, they're you're emotions. I'm going to say if you want others to feel guilty about their weight, you're more likely to increase their weight, and that's why I say making it about personal choices works. Like I said, guilt doesn't work. People that perceived themselves as fat-shamed gain weight compared to people that don't staying at the same weight.
Quiet frankly, the idea that social medicine means we have some right to guilt others about what they do with their body is a very slippery slope. The thing is, we could come up with a million bad habits that alter someone's health. Some of them we actively encourage people do and call it a good thing, like people who over stress themselves looking to achieve. We don't pretend that modern social medicine is going collapse under trying to treat them. Are we next going to start telling people they should feel bad about introversion? People with a lack of social connections have huge health impact outcomes, but we're content to say that's a personal choice.
I can certainly agree it has consequences, and no one has to try to guarantee anyone who's over weight the same quality of life for being so - to do so in some instance is going to be impossible, just as surely no one can guarantee even healthy people can have the quality of life of an Olympic athlete. However, that quality of life is the person's to live with. To pretend someone else has to feel bad for those choices, to me feels like robbing someone of their own body.0 -
Therealobi1 wrote: »when you start to "take the blame" and come out of "sleep walking" i think thats when you start to take action.
i have blamed the depo, i have blamed types of food, but actually all i needed was some knowledge (through mfp) and some determination to get me going. really didnt think i could do it until i got the app.
i think some people take it personally the blaming thing but its just abit of taking ownership to get cracking. You dont have to dwell on it as i said before so i dont think its a bad thing at all.
Was it taking blame that made the change, or was it taking responsibility and making choices? You can understand what you weigh and why you weight it without feeling there has to be blame.0 -
Therealobi1 wrote: »when you start to "take the blame" and come out of "sleep walking" i think thats when you start to take action.
i have blamed the depo, i have blamed types of food, but actually all i needed was some knowledge (through mfp) and some determination to get me going. really didnt think i could do it until i got the app.
i think some people take it personally the blaming thing but its just abit of taking ownership to get cracking. You dont have to dwell on it as i said before so i dont think its a bad thing at all.
Was it taking blame that made the change, or was it taking responsibility and making choices? You can understand what you weigh and why you weight it without feeling there has to be blame.Therealobi1 wrote: »when you start to "take the blame" and come out of "sleep walking" i think thats when you start to take action.
i have blamed the depo, i have blamed types of food, but actually all i needed was some knowledge (through mfp) and some determination to get me going. really didnt think i could do it until i got the app.
i think some people take it personally the blaming thing but its just abit of taking ownership to get cracking. You dont have to dwell on it as i said before so i dont think its a bad thing at all.
Was it taking blame that made the change, or was it taking responsibility and making choices? You can understand what you weigh and why you weight it without feeling there has to be blame.
Both, i overate it wasnt the depo's fault anymore or the types of food i ate it was what i did or did not do. I dont think the word blame is a bad thing in this instance it is just being honest with myself.0 -
robingmurphy wrote: »But what if it is, actually, harder for some than others?
We have 0 evidence that it is. We have lots of evidence that a majority of people experience hedonic hunger given the right environment. As someone who has been obese
My understanding is that there is excellent evidence that some people get a larger dopamine surge when they are tempted by pleasurable foods and some people are more sensitive to the effects of dopamine. Dopamine is the same brain chemical that triggers desire if you're a gambling addict, an alcoholic, or strongly drawn to sugary treats. Biochemically, some people have a bigger fight to overcome urges. Doesn't mean it's impossible or that personal responsibility doesn't exist. Just that it's harder and it may make sense for them to reduce stimuli in their environment that trigger a dopamine surge.
Dopamine is a hormone released during anticipation of pleasure, .also released whilst listening to emotional music or petting puppies
This is an interesting read http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3124340/
Also exercise.
And of course even if there were a real difference so that some people overweight were struggling with dopamine sensitivity or the lack thereof (which I do not believe) and others were not, how on earth could you know you were and others were not. Claiming it's harder for you than others for such a reason is simply an excuse. Fact is that it's more common than not for humans to enjoy food and eating and, yes, probably we all get a dopamine response in connection with eating because that makes evolutionary sense, and foods differ in how much they evoke that response (how palatable they are). While there are people not that interested in eating (and others not that interested in exercising, despite this), focusing on them as meaning that your struggles are too hard to be overcome (or simply SO MUCH HARDER than those others deal with) doesn't have much to do with the real problem at hand or the population of other overweight and obese people (or former overweight and obese people). I would be quite surprised if I am less responsive to the hedonistic pleasures of food than the average fat person, and yet I was able to lose weight just fine.
And on a related note, we also get a dopamine response in anticipation of sex, but if my SO said that he couldn't be faithful (or it was harder for him) because dopamine and people vary in their responses, yeah, that's not going to go over well.0
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