Just consider this
ninerbuff
Posts: 49,021 Member
If a doctor told you that next time you ate your favorite "downfall" food (binge, "can't" moderate), smoked your next cigarette, drank your next latte, you would DEFINITELY get terminal cancer, would you eat/drink it?
I doubt it.
So what stops anyone from doing it then? Fear, right? So people who CAN'T seem to stop eating what they like to binge on would definitely stop right away.
Point is that if someone really "feared" that something was going to be their demise on a weight loss, they'd solve their issue. Problem is that people that "can't" seem to moderate don't ever feel this way.
I'm sure this will be a discussion that will spark some tough debate, so please be cordial.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I doubt it.
So what stops anyone from doing it then? Fear, right? So people who CAN'T seem to stop eating what they like to binge on would definitely stop right away.
Point is that if someone really "feared" that something was going to be their demise on a weight loss, they'd solve their issue. Problem is that people that "can't" seem to moderate don't ever feel this way.
I'm sure this will be a discussion that will spark some tough debate, so please be cordial.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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not necessarily.
Think about how many people are told by their docs that they HAVE to lose weight or that they have to stop smoking. And still do these things after heart attacks or strokes or emphesemia (not sure i spelled that right).
you can be told to do something, and told the consequences of your actions, but if you dont WANT to quit (insert vice)... you won't.0 -
I don't get your logic. Many people with first cancers or precancerous cells are told to stop smoking or they will get more aggressive secondary cancers? It doesn't stop them smoking.
Many alcoholics are told the next drink could kill them but they don't stop.0 -
What's supposed to be your point here?
Failing to stick to your diet goals gives you terminal cancer?
I think you need to work on your analogies.0 -
I don't know that most people feel this way including those who have an ability to moderate.
For example, people know not to stick their hand in a fire because they know that there will be an immediate negative consequence as a direct result of that action. Additionally, there's no positive reinforcement occurring in this behavior.
The same cannot be said for other behaviors such as smoking, or sitting on a couch eating donuts (I'd argue that both of these also have a positive reinforcement aspect to them which further complicates things).
But maybe I'm not understanding your premise.0 -
Can't is usually a poor word choice in place of "don't want to" or "don't know how". And my observation is that the forums can get too distracted by this.0
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Like others I am not sure that I understand...
Are we talking about moderation vs elimination?0 -
There are lots of people who just don't want it bad enough. They are stuck on every excuse they can think of. No matter what analogy you try to make, they just won't get it. They'll still come back with the same ole excuses.
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I love that statement! I work for a consulting company and use a very similar analogy with many of the companies I work with. For example, when people say that they don't have time to tend to some business activity or to further a company initiative that's not necessarily part of their day-to-day job, I always ask them "what would happen if I told you that if you don't begin completing *insert initiative here* you would have to pack your things up and leave your comfortable job by the end of the day, what would you do? You would find the damn time!" It's all about priorities.
Same kind of thing here, and I definitely see what you're saying. The only thing I would add would be that the doctor would have to say "you will get cancer TODAY". Getting cancer at some unspecified date in the future would not be a motivator for most.
Most of us know that an unhealthy diet puts us at risk for a great many things (heart disease, metabolic disease, cancer, ill-fitting-bikini syndrome, etc.), yet we find ways to de-prioritize those things in the most imaginative and creative ways. For example, everyone has heard about some 100 year old dude/woman who was a pack-a-day smoker. Or the overweight person who lived in to their eighties with minimal health complications. Or maybe you've looked at last year's bikini and decided "well, rather than try and shimmy in to that one I'll get a new one, those colours are SO 2014 anyway".
I get it, and I'm guilty of it. Especially the bikini thing.... Did that this year
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When asked about his lung cancer and if he'd smoke if he had to do it over knowing the risk the Marlboro Man Cowboy said something like "If I could, I'd rather have never been born. I can't imagine a life without the joy of cigarettes, and I can't imagine a pain worse than the cancer killing me caused by them. I'd rather not have lived than have to choose."
You also see cancer patients smoking in hospitals that allow smoking.0 -
Life style changes are probably one of the hardest things to do. That is why I think success greatly depends on them being done over time. So, if my doctor told me that my next cigarette would be my last, I probably wouldn't be responding to this thread right now. My doctors did tell me that I had to lose weight and quit smoking or I would start having serious issues though. Over the past year I have lost 55 lbs. and went from smoking 3 packs of cigarettes a day to smoking 3 to 5 cigarettes a day.0
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This is a tough one to think through.
I have a BIL who has repeatedly been told to lose the weight by his doc. Despite heart stents and knee replacements he still can't stick to a calorie deficit or exercise for more than a few weeks.
He is aware of the health risks, but prefers a life full of delicious food and drink, that is shorter, than a life of deprivation (his words) that is longer.
We all worry but he has made his choice.
Scare tactics don't always work.
I do agree with PPs some people just don't know how to start changing their way of life.
Cheers, h.0 -
Being put at a slightly higher risk of some negative complication is not the same thing as being told that you have a 100% chance of developing X if you do Y one more time. Adults constantly weigh a slightly increased risk of some negative consequence against the convenience/pleasure/whatever they get from a behavior. I don't think it's accurate to say that people who fail to moderate do so because they don't fear the consequences. They may be misinformed about exactly how much of an increased risk it causes, or they may not fully understand how unpleasant the negative consequence is, or they may just decide that the pleasure is worth the risk.0
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I like the concept of the analogy in that it forces me to think about why up until now I haven't successfully got to my target weight and maintained it. But I think the reality is that yes if it was scientifically possible for one cream cake to cause instant terminal cancer I would definitely not eat it. But I couldn't make myself pretend that was the case because I'd know it was a lie. Overeating is an emotional thing, and it wouldn't work for me to lie to myself to try and change my habits. People around you say "oh go on, you won't put weight on from one meal", or "you have to have some pleasures in life" and these de-motivators are persistent when you choose to agree with them.
If eating a chocolate bar would cause me to instantly gain 7lb then I wouldn't eat that either. But in reality there are no instant results, good or bad, so there's less incentive.
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Another aspect is someone's belief of whether they think they can be successful or not. There are some interesting studies on people living in poverty that continue to make poor choices that further contribute to their financial problems. And some of it is related to the belief that they will never get ahead, so why not "enjoy" things that they can't really afford. I think that translates to health/fitness as well. A mindset that if you don't really believe in yourself, why even try.
But I'm still not sure what this thread was intended to say, tbh.
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I'm not sure I follow your logic here.
I moderate, and my thinking when I regulate my food intake is nothing along those lines.
I don't think that's a particularly healthy train of thought you're encouraging, if I'm even halfway following you, to be honest.
One of the things I always go on about when posting is that in order to moderate, I think it's essential for most people to uncover and work through the reasons they overeat. The issues behind most people's behavior with food are often complex and multi-layered.
I think your approach sounds like aversion therapy and would just be masking the deeper problems that really need to be dealt with.
That would not, ultimately result in a healthy relationship with food.0 -
I like the idea of giving people probabilities, if they could be based on decent information. Then again, I ignore the population risk for the habit I need to stop. But maybe it would feel scarier if personal vulnerability (family history, genetics etc) were taken into account.
The "next one's going to kill me" conceit actually did help me last time I tried.
The older I get, the more I sense the risk (but still not acutely enough for that to work on its own right now).0 -
I think people in this community spend way to much time nitpicking word usage and ascribing deeper psychological meaning to word choice, as though changing "can't" to "won't" will be the breakthrough that causes all weight loss issues to fall into place.
When I see someone here type the word "can't," I don't read that as "I don't want to," "I'm helpless," or "I'm a victim," I read that as the person saying that what they have tried so far has been unsuccessful, and they have been unable to figure out what works for them. I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.0 -
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I think people in this community spend way to much time nitpicking word usage and ascribing deeper psychological meaning to word choice, as though changing "can't" to "won't" will be the breakthrough that causes all weight loss issues to fall into place.
When I see someone here type the word "can't," I don't read that as "I don't want to," "I'm helpless," or "I'm a victim," I read that as the person saying that what they have tried so far has been unsuccessful, and they have been unable to figure out what works for them. I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.
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Just wanted to agree with you about the nit picking of vocabulary. Sometimes it can overtake a thread to the original posters detriment. I try to read posts in the simplest terms possible as written English, for whatever reason, isn't everyone's forte.
I think people giving their personal advice, though maybe inapplicable to the original poster, does give the OP a good variety of options to try to solve their particular problem. The more personal advice posts the more options. It is good for the person posting the advice to realise their way is not always the best way. On that I do agree.
Sorry for the slight detour. Carry on.
Cheers, h.0 -
Scare tactics don't work for everyone unfortunately.
My In law's have been morbidly obese for the 15 years I've known them. They have been told many a time that all their health problems were as a result of their weight, but it never inspired them to change. Even when my MIL was immobile due to her joints being unable to take her weight, her eye sight was failing and her blood pressure was dangerously high. She suffered a life altering stroke 18 months ago and now cannot move one side of her body. FIL has been diagnosed with gallstones, needs his gallbladder removed but has been told he is too fat to survive surgery. The doctors actually told him surgery would kill him. So he is in constant pain.
They have not changed at all and if anything their eating habits are worse than ever. It's almost as if they have accepted their fate.
There's a lot more to it than fear. There's plenty to be afraid of in every day life, but people still smoke, drink, take drugs, drive like an idiot, and do plenty of dangerous things.
I do wonder if this has been posted just to rile every one on purpose.0 -
I see diabetics who go on sugar binges, people with lung disease still smoking, celiacs who eat gluten, people who have overdosed still taking drugs, people with heart disease sucking down bacon.... threat of death doesn't deter people much of the time.0
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I keep reading the initial post, and I think I'm following it now.
Niner is postulating that fear is often a motivator, but often for the people who say they "can't", there's no connection to that fear thing, they don't see the big picture.
If that IS what he's saying, I still disagree.
For sure, I'm going to guess that there are people out there who respond to negative (fear-based) motivation.
And I'm also going to say that there's a whole bunch of other people who stick their head in the sand, or their fingers in their ears and go all "la-la-la-la I can't hear you" singing along to the denial top 100 when it comes to fear as a motivator.
Because we're all different and really complex and brains are weird and so are emotions.
And that's the thing, isn't it? With emotional issues and motivators being so very complex and varied, it's not really as simple as wondering why some people don't "get it" and shaking your head because it should be so obvious as what they have to fear.
To some people, the fear of dealing with whatever their underlying issues are is bigger than the fears of the health risks.
Not that I'd know anything about that from personal experience or something like that. Ahem.0 -
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Disagree
From experience
Still took me over a decade to find a way to lose weight despite being under a neurologist for a number of years with my weight being a potential issue in my long term prognosis
It is easy to compartmentalise ...and I don't fear death as much as losing faculties or abilities but even the potential of a stroke was not enough to permanently change my lifestyle until I found and committed to what worked for me almost a decade later
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I think people in this community spend way to much time nitpicking word usage and ascribing deeper psychological meaning to word choice, as though changing "can't" to "won't" will be the breakthrough that causes all weight loss issues to fall into place.
When I see someone here type the word "can't," I don't read that as "I don't want to," "I'm helpless," or "I'm a victim," I read that as the person saying that what they have tried so far has been unsuccessful, and they have been unable to figure out what works for them. I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.
I'd just like to say that sometimes, what you see as a blind spot is simply someone thinking they're not unique and that maybe what worked for them might be helpful if they put it out there for everyone else to see.
I would say the spirit in which personal experience is shared can vary on the forum, but not all sharing of personal experience is done blindly as if it's universal. A lot of us are fully aware that we're all different.
It's funny, I was just talking to my sister the other day, and she's going about losing weight in an entirely different fashion than I am because our personalities are so completely different that different things click for each of us. We were talking about that very thing. In fact, the only thing we have in common is running.
We still shared with each other and from that sharing were able to glean something helpful.0 -
Oh, how I've missed the forums!
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If a doctor told you that next time you ate your favorite "downfall" food (binge, "can't" moderate), smoked your next cigarette, drank your next latte, you would DEFINITELY get terminal cancer, would you eat/drink it?
I doubt it.
So what stops anyone from doing it then? Fear, right? So people who CAN'T seem to stop eating what they like to binge one would definitely stop right away.
Point is that if someone really "feared" that something was going to be their demise on a weight loss, they'd solve their issue. Problem is that people that "can't" seem to moderate don't ever feel this way.
I'm sure this will be a discussion that will spark some tough debate, so please be cordial.
Sorry, but if it's a deep enough compulsion or need, nothing will stop it. Nothing short of death and let me tell you that for some compulsions, death isn't such a bad idea compared to giving up whatever it is that's needed. That includes food. One simply doesn't cure a compulsive behavior with willpower. If it were that easy, there would be far fewer people in trouble and not just with their weight.0 -
Like everyone else, I'm not sure I see what you're getting at, nor why, frankly.0
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Pretty much this. I think often what's easiest or best for us, we assume it will be easiest or best for everyone.I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.
And as folks figure out the formula that works (best) for them, a little understanding goes a long way.
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Alatariel75 wrote: »I see diabetics who go on sugar binges, people with lung disease still smoking, celiacs who eat gluten, people who have overdosed still taking drugs, people with heart disease sucking down bacon.... threat of death doesn't deter people much of the time.
Right, but the threat's still pretty nebulous, in a way. As Sidesteel said, each individual instance of indulging, on its own, carries minimal risk, and obviously the action's not aversive in itself.
But if a doc did a proper history, and ran a bunch of lab tests and stats, and told me, "tomatoey, if you keep [doing the habit], you're 80% likely to develop [horrible disease] within the next 18 months (with a p value of 1%), and that looks like this [horrible picture of a person who is sick at my age] - how do you like them apples?" I might be more likely to not be dumb about this particular thing.0
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