Just consider this
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I think people in this community spend way to much time nitpicking word usage and ascribing deeper psychological meaning to word choice, as though changing "can't" to "won't" will be the breakthrough that causes all weight loss issues to fall into place.
When I see someone here type the word "can't," I don't read that as "I don't want to," "I'm helpless," or "I'm a victim," I read that as the person saying that what they have tried so far has been unsuccessful, and they have been unable to figure out what works for them. I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.
What advice do you expect people to give?
I'm scrunching up my face trying to understand this and the only thing I get out of it is that you want a Disney style lets support everything that has ever been put out there as a method of weight loss...because to be honest every fad that results in a calorie defecit works
But that doesn't mean that punishing oneself, following specific food timings, exclusions, demonisation, superfoods, cooking, juicing, food addiction or whatever type of marketing drivel the latest fad is tied up in is worthwhile
I think if anybody wishes to support and help others it behoves us to counteract the absolute dieting derp0 -
I think people in this community spend way to much time nitpicking word usage and ascribing deeper psychological meaning to word choice, as though changing "can't" to "won't" will be the breakthrough that causes all weight loss issues to fall into place.
When I see someone here type the word "can't," I don't read that as "I don't want to," "I'm helpless," or "I'm a victim," I read that as the person saying that what they have tried so far has been unsuccessful, and they have been unable to figure out what works for them. I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.
Agree and would add, it helps when people reach a threshold where the activity or its obvious effects are more miserable/stressful than the comfort the activity offers. In health psych, there's this idea about readiness for change ( e.g. here http://psychcentral.com/lib/stages-of-change/ - whoops ok that's about drinking but it's thought to apply to a range of risky behaviours. )
and windows of opportunity where choices feel more stark or tap important motivations - like pregnancy, marriage, divorce, moving cities, illness, milestone years.
I know that the biggest reason I started losing when I did was that I broke up with someone and wanted to wear cute clothes on dates. Love (via vanity) > quarter pounders with cheese
AND I think it's not often that people have insight into the reason their decision to change finally took. (Unless it was something obvious like a breakup). Because everyone here wanted to change more than once before they actually did, right? So what was different the last time? The energy that went into that probably wasn't deliberate, it probably came from a bunch of incentives working at once.
Or maybe a picture taken at a horrible angle, that seems to be dramatic enough to puncture a lot of people's denial0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »I'm not sure I follow your logic here.
I moderate, and my thinking when I regulate my food intake is nothing along those lines.
I don't think that's a particularly healthy train of thought you're encouraging, if I'm even halfway following you, to be honest.
One of the things I always go on about when posting is that in order to moderate, I think it's essential for most people to uncover and work through the reasons they overeat. The issues behind most people's behavior with food are often complex and multi-layered.
I think your approach sounds like aversion therapy and would just be masking the deeper problems that really need to be dealt with.
That would not, ultimately result in a healthy relationship with food.
I think the reasons for those issues are often more frightening than the consequences of those issues. Plus change is hard. We fear failure...we fear what comes next...most of all we fear that even after facing those issues that we won't be able to cope with the reasons why we have issues. Those issues are our coping mechanisms...we have relied upon them so much that they have actually become a big part of our identities.
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I think people in this community spend way to much time nitpicking word usage and ascribing deeper psychological meaning to word choice, as though changing "can't" to "won't" will be the breakthrough that causes all weight loss issues to fall into place.
When I see someone here type the word "can't," I don't read that as "I don't want to," "I'm helpless," or "I'm a victim," I read that as the person saying that what they have tried so far has been unsuccessful, and they have been unable to figure out what works for them. I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.
What advice do you expect people to give?
I'm scrunching up my face trying to understand this and the only thing I get out of it is that you want a Disney style lets support everything that has ever been put out there as a method of weight loss...because to be honest every fad that results in a calorie defecit works
But that doesn't mean that punishing oneself, following specific food timings, exclusions, demonisation, superfoods, cooking, juicing, food addiction or whatever type of marketing drivel the latest fad is tied up in is worthwhile
I think if anybody wishes to support and help others it behoves us to counteract the absolute dieting derp
I read her comment differently -- I thought she was saying that when someone says "I can't," it's not always the case that they're just not trying hard enough. It may be the case that they need something explained from a different angle, or they've never heard the obvious suggestion, etc. They may just have incomplete information (or an incomplete understanding of that information). A deficit is a very simple principle, but there are a ton of ways to create a deficit, and one way of looking at it may be better for someone than another.0 -
My stepfather needs lifesaving surgery...they have told him they won't do the surgery unless he loses 75 pounds AND quits smoking. He's done neither, and is living a horrible, sick end to his life. Why? Stubborn, no one is going to tell him what to do....How dare that "quack" tell him he has to lose 75 pounds"...and on and on......I find it very difficult to feel sorry for him, altho seeing him in pain breaks my heart, and there's not a thing I can do to help him. Sad, but true.0
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tomatoey;
AND I think it's not often that people have insight into the reason their decision to change finally took. (Unless it was something obvious like a breakup). Because everyone here wanted to change more than once before they actually did, right? So what was different the last time? The energy that went into that probably wasn't deliberate, it probably came from a bunch of incentives working at once.
Or maybe a picture taken at a horrible angle, that seems to be dramatic enough to puncture a lot of people's denial
I am a once only person. Did the weight loss and have maintained 6 yr.
The photo really scared me- frumpy, fat, and over 50- it just wasn't what I ever thought I was, or wanted to be.
Oh, that means scare tactics can work.
Cheers, h.0 -
People generally go for immediate gratification over long term consequences. People do this in many areas of their lives, and plenty even do it spiritually. Humans are weak (in general) and have faults. No one is perfect. Not everyone can switch to great behaviors by just deciding to one day.0
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middlehaitch wrote: »tomatoey;
AND I think it's not often that people have insight into the reason their decision to change finally took. (Unless it was something obvious like a breakup). Because everyone here wanted to change more than once before they actually did, right? So what was different the last time? The energy that went into that probably wasn't deliberate, it probably came from a bunch of incentives working at once.
Or maybe a picture taken at a horrible angle, that seems to be dramatic enough to puncture a lot of people's denial
I am a once only person. Did the weight loss and have maintained 6 yr.
The photo really scared me- frumpy, fat, and over 50- it just wasn't what I ever thought I was, or wanted to be.
Oh, that means scare tactics can work.
Cheers, h.
Ha
Well, I made some half-hearted attempts when I was still with my ex. I didn't really mind how I looked at the time, in part because he didn't mind either, and he stuck around. At least, he couldn't complain too much, because he got his belly eating the same ridiculous dinners. So we were tubby together and that was sort of - not ideal, but ok. Once it ended, I looked in the mirror and didn't like what I finally saw.
And soon enough, I started liking what I was doing for other reasons (improved mood, better sleep, etc.) Also have maintained for 5 years. Lots of roads to Rome!0 -
@amy_kee totally agree not everyone can do it on first attempt.
The pic of me (its in my profile) scared me so much I started calorie counting that day and had found an exercise the same week.
As @tomatoey said up thread; for some the scare for weight loss can be as simple as a picture, and as has been discussed, even a death prognosis from a doctor won't work for others.
Maybe we are all special snowflakes after all.
Cheers, h.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »I think people in this community spend way to much time nitpicking word usage and ascribing deeper psychological meaning to word choice, as though changing "can't" to "won't" will be the breakthrough that causes all weight loss issues to fall into place.
When I see someone here type the word "can't," I don't read that as "I don't want to," "I'm helpless," or "I'm a victim," I read that as the person saying that what they have tried so far has been unsuccessful, and they have been unable to figure out what works for them. I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.
I'd just like to say that sometimes, what you see as a blind spot is simply someone thinking they're not unique and that maybe what worked for them might be helpful if they put it out there for everyone else to see.
I would say the spirit in which personal experience is shared can vary on the forum, but not all sharing of personal experience is done blindly as if it's universal. A lot of us are fully aware that we're all different.
It's funny, I was just talking to my sister the other day, and she's going about losing weight in an entirely different fashion than I am because our personalities are so completely different that different things click for each of us. We were talking about that very thing. In fact, the only thing we have in common is running.
We still shared with each other and from that sharing were able to glean something helpful.
No, that's not what I meant by blind spot at all. There's nothing wrong with sharing what has worked for you and putting it out there as helpful. But when someone rejects that idea, rather than just chalking it up to "this idea isn't going to work for them and their situation," we often see people take that rejection of their advice personally. This leads to ascribing all sorts of issues onto the OP - they aren't ready, they only want to be coddled, this advice works for everyone but you just have to try, you can do this method you just need willpower, you don't want to take responsibility for your actions, etc.
The person doesn't end up getting any closer to figuring out what is going to work for them, because instead of getting ideas to help them get there, they're getting a barrage of posts from people telling them what they think they "need to hear" based on their own experiences with weight loss and what they needed, rather than helping the person flesh out their own issues with weight loss. This is why I disagree with the notion in the OP that people don't want something enough - people base that interpretation on their own set of standards and how they would handle things, rather than how someone else does it.
I don't blame people for that, it can be an incredibly frustrating process, particularly if the person you are talking to has vastly different approach to how they view things in life. But it also begs the question of why would one become invested in the process of trying to help someone if they are not willing to accept that the other person is ultimately going to have to decide what to do in their own lives, and that may not be the advice given. I'm still not entirely sure I understand the OP's meaning, but I think if one finds themselves getting frustrated by people not listening to them, the better course might be to step back and save oneself the aggravation.0 -
I think scare tactics can work if the price/cost one must pay less than the future benefit. If the perceived price is too high, I doubt people would change.
I was slowly gaining while enjoying most foods. I found out I was prediabetic and tried to cut back on treats - to moderate them. It tended to result in me eating more sugary junk foods than ever before. The though of a future without the treats i wanted seemed horrible to me and when I would cut back and get going in that direction, I would eat a few more just one last time. Wash rinse repeat.
I finally got it through my head that having a little bit, and repeated last treats wasn't helping. It was wrecking me. I finally cut sugars drastically and was shocked that it wasn't a high price to pay. I thought I would feel deprived but I was wrong. Even if my health didn't improve instantly, it was a very minor price to pay.
I think the biggest hurdle for me was getting past my thoughts of how hard it would be. Maybe some people think it will be too hard and so the change isn't worth it.0 -
I think people in this community spend way to much time nitpicking word usage and ascribing deeper psychological meaning to word choice, as though changing "can't" to "won't" will be the breakthrough that causes all weight loss issues to fall into place.
When I see someone here type the word "can't," I don't read that as "I don't want to," "I'm helpless," or "I'm a victim," I read that as the person saying that what they have tried so far has been unsuccessful, and they have been unable to figure out what works for them. I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.
Much better to just vaguely support people in endless blind experiments, many that go against standing science and practicum instead of giving advice based on what has worked and is backed by actual evidence based method? This isn't all Edison stuff where each failure is learning one more way not do something successfully - each time someone tries a new inane diet that isn't sustainable, they grow that much more inured against trying and towards permanently avoiding weight loss.
If you're going to encourage people on that basis, please at least be honest enough to include "well, I've never see anyone with long term success from it" in regards to their eating only 7 special foods diet?0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »I think people in this community spend way to much time nitpicking word usage and ascribing deeper psychological meaning to word choice, as though changing "can't" to "won't" will be the breakthrough that causes all weight loss issues to fall into place.
When I see someone here type the word "can't," I don't read that as "I don't want to," "I'm helpless," or "I'm a victim," I read that as the person saying that what they have tried so far has been unsuccessful, and they have been unable to figure out what works for them. I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.
I'd just like to say that sometimes, what you see as a blind spot is simply someone thinking they're not unique and that maybe what worked for them might be helpful if they put it out there for everyone else to see.
I would say the spirit in which personal experience is shared can vary on the forum, but not all sharing of personal experience is done blindly as if it's universal. A lot of us are fully aware that we're all different.
It's funny, I was just talking to my sister the other day, and she's going about losing weight in an entirely different fashion than I am because our personalities are so completely different that different things click for each of us. We were talking about that very thing. In fact, the only thing we have in common is running.
We still shared with each other and from that sharing were able to glean something helpful.
No, that's not what I meant by blind spot at all. There's nothing wrong with sharing what has worked for you and putting it out there as helpful. But when someone rejects that idea, rather than just chalking it up to "this idea isn't going to work for them and their situation," we often see people take that rejection of their advice personally. This leads to ascribing all sorts of issues onto the OP - they aren't ready, they only want to be coddled, this advice works for everyone but you just have to try, you can do this method you just need willpower, you don't want to take responsibility for your actions, etc.
The person doesn't end up getting any closer to figuring out what is going to work for them, because instead of getting ideas to help them get there, they're getting a barrage of posts from people telling them what they think they "need to hear" based on their own experiences with weight loss and what they needed, rather than helping the person flesh out their own issues with weight loss. This is why I disagree with the notion in the OP that people don't want something enough - people base that interpretation on their own set of standards and how they would handle things, rather than how someone else does it.
I don't blame people for that, it can be an incredibly frustrating process, particularly if the person you are talking to has vastly different approach to how they view things in life. But it also begs the question of why would one become invested in the process of trying to help someone if they are not willing to accept that the other person is ultimately going to have to decide what to do in their own lives, and that may not be the advice given. I'm still not entirely sure I understand the OP's meaning, but I think if one finds themselves getting frustrated by people not listening to them, the better course might be to step back and save oneself the aggravation.
Well said!!!!!!!0 -
I think people in this community spend way to much time nitpicking word usage and ascribing deeper psychological meaning to word choice, as though changing "can't" to "won't" will be the breakthrough that causes all weight loss issues to fall into place.
When I see someone here type the word "can't," I don't read that as "I don't want to," "I'm helpless," or "I'm a victim," I read that as the person saying that what they have tried so far has been unsuccessful, and they have been unable to figure out what works for them. I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.
Much better to just vaguely support people in endless blind experiments, many that go against standing science and practicum instead of giving advice based on what has worked and is backed by actual evidence based method? This isn't all Edison stuff where each failure is learning one more way not do something successfully - each time someone tries a new inane diet that isn't sustainable, they grow that much more inured against trying and towards permanently avoiding weight loss.
If you're going to encourage people on that basis, please at least be honest enough to include "well, I've never see anyone with long term success from it" in regards to their eating only 7 special foods diet?
Well, some things tend to work for many, like focusing on protein, fat, & fibre to control hunger / promote satiety. I often mention that as a thing to try if someone hasn't already. Similarly (or same thing), moderate to lowish carb (80% of the time, with the remaining 20% in conditional dribs and drabs) works well for me, kind of in the way keto does for nvmomketo - that is, hunger is reduced, and I *really* don't miss or stress over what I'm not having (or having rarely), or even judge what I'm not having; it's just that it would be more stressful and annoying for me to try to fit a tiny portion of poutine into my day on a regular basis. That kind of moderation would tank me. And, I don't actually think it's important that I have 1/16th of a poutine on a daily basis for me to maintain my weight or feel good about myself or enjoy the amazing other stuff I am having instead.
So my way might be bizarre to those for whom something else worked - maybe they tried it and it was the worst ever for them! - but it really does work for some, without negative consequences, long-term, even. And, I get that something else might be better for others.
I think it's fine to offer up the strategy that worked for you, talk about some ideas supported by research and why some ideas might not be so helpful.
I have a real problem when people harsh on others for "lacking willpower" and "not being responsible", "making excuses", etc. I think that is really unproductive and just as harmful as someone supporting a 12-banana-a-day diet*, in that this *also* makes people feel bad about their attempt, supports the idea they're failures, and potentially reduces the odds of them trying again. When they're not failures, they just need to hit on the right thing at the right time. Many overweight people feel bad enough about themselves as it is, I don't see it as helpful or motivating.
* Although I haven't seen that sort of thing around in a bit.0 -
Or they don't fear dying. We ALL have fear of something in life.callsitlikeiseeit wrote: »not necessarily.
Think about how many people are told by their docs that they HAVE to lose weight or that they have to stop smoking. And still do these things after heart attacks or strokes or emphesemia (not sure i spelled that right).
you can be told to do something, and told the consequences of your actions, but if you dont WANT to quit (insert vice)... you won't.
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Let me try a different approach then.
If anyone who says they "can't" moderate, were told today that if they could moderate, they were "gauranteed" their weekly target loss and wouldn't regain weight (hypothetical) again, do you think the people who stated they couldn't, would?
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Let me try a different approach then.
If anyone who says they "can't" moderate, were told today that if they could moderate, they were "gauranteed" their weekly target loss and wouldn't regain weight (hypothetical) again, do you think the people who stated they couldn't, would?
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IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes, that would definitely work for me
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Let me try a different approach then.
If anyone who says they "can't" moderate, were told today that if they could moderate, they were "gauranteed" their weekly target loss and wouldn't regain weight (hypothetical) again, do you think the people who stated they couldn't, would?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
No, I don't think so. They still have to moderate, and it might be more or less challenging for them for any number of reasons. (By the way, there are lots of ways of moderating!)0 -
So people who fall for crazy diet fads, won't go for this one then?Let me try a different approach then.
If anyone who says they "can't" moderate, were told today that if they could moderate, they were "gauranteed" their weekly target loss and wouldn't regain weight (hypothetical) again, do you think the people who stated they couldn't, would?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
No, I don't think so. They still have to moderate, and it might be more or less challenging for them for any number of reasons. (By the way, there are lots of ways of moderating!)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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So people who fall for crazy diet fads, won't go for this one then?Let me try a different approach then.
If anyone who says they "can't" moderate, were told today that if they could moderate, they were "gauranteed" their weekly target loss and wouldn't regain weight (hypothetical) again, do you think the people who stated they couldn't, would?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
No, I don't think so. They still have to moderate, and it might be more or less challenging for them for any number of reasons. (By the way, there are lots of ways of moderating!)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Fads appeal to people because they're extreme. I almost think the weirder the diet the more attractive, for people in certain states of mind. But you couldn't promise a permanent result with any diet. That would be just as suss as the banana thing! Or somewhat suss, anyway.0 -
I think I get what the OP is saying - basically that it's kind of BS when people say they "can't" moderate. I agree and disagree. I do get frustrated when people claim they "can't do moderation" and use that as a reason to take an all or nothing approach, because the whole all or nothing thing almost never works, and then those people wonder why they keep regaining the weight. I think moderation is a learned skill for many and it's worth the EFFORT to learn how to do it. Simply saying "nope, I can't" is refusing to challenge oneself, and frankly it get's annoying to hear.
That being said, I get why people feel that way. For a personal example, I do everything in moderation but the one thing I "can't" seem to control myself with is ice cream. Now of course that doesn't mean I literally, physically CAN'T moderate with ice cream - if someone held a gun to my head and said "okay Lauren eat exactly ONE serving but no more, or I'll shoot you" obviously I would be able to do it. But in less dire circumstances, the pleasure I get from eating ice cream far outweighs the nagging voice in my head that says "hey, this isn't good for your weight loss goals..." and when I go to eat one or two servings half the time I end up eating a half gallon.
Do I still eat ice cream? Yep, because I refuse to give it up completely, so my only option is to learn to enjoy it in moderation. But it's a tough process. It's truly like giving up an addiction. Many people look at that prospect and simply say, "nope, can't do it."
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I disagree. Fads appeal because people actually BELIEVE that that's what they need to do for success, regardless if it's extreme or not. Hence why the supplement industry profits by promoting "fat burning" pills even if they don't work. Many people buy them (many without changing their diets at all) because they believe that the pills will burn off their excess fat.
Fads appeal to people because they're extreme. I almost think the weirder the diet the more attractive, for people in certain states of mind. But you couldn't promise a permanent result with any diet. That would be just as suss as the banana thing! Or somewhat suss, anyway.
And really what I'm suggesting is a much more "permanent" solution than what other fads offer.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »I think people in this community spend way to much time nitpicking word usage and ascribing deeper psychological meaning to word choice, as though changing "can't" to "won't" will be the breakthrough that causes all weight loss issues to fall into place.
When I see someone here type the word "can't," I don't read that as "I don't want to," "I'm helpless," or "I'm a victim," I read that as the person saying that what they have tried so far has been unsuccessful, and they have been unable to figure out what works for them. I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.
I'd just like to say that sometimes, what you see as a blind spot is simply someone thinking they're not unique and that maybe what worked for them might be helpful if they put it out there for everyone else to see.
I would say the spirit in which personal experience is shared can vary on the forum, but not all sharing of personal experience is done blindly as if it's universal. A lot of us are fully aware that we're all different.
It's funny, I was just talking to my sister the other day, and she's going about losing weight in an entirely different fashion than I am because our personalities are so completely different that different things click for each of us. We were talking about that very thing. In fact, the only thing we have in common is running.
We still shared with each other and from that sharing were able to glean something helpful.
No, that's not what I meant by blind spot at all. There's nothing wrong with sharing what has worked for you and putting it out there as helpful. But when someone rejects that idea, rather than just chalking it up to "this idea isn't going to work for them and their situation," we often see people take that rejection of their advice personally. This leads to ascribing all sorts of issues onto the OP - they aren't ready, they only want to be coddled, this advice works for everyone but you just have to try, you can do this method you just need willpower, you don't want to take responsibility for your actions, etc.
The person doesn't end up getting any closer to figuring out what is going to work for them, because instead of getting ideas to help them get there, they're getting a barrage of posts from people telling them what they think they "need to hear" based on their own experiences with weight loss and what they needed, rather than helping the person flesh out their own issues with weight loss. This is why I disagree with the notion in the OP that people don't want something enough - people base that interpretation on their own set of standards and how they would handle things, rather than how someone else does it.
I don't blame people for that, it can be an incredibly frustrating process, particularly if the person you are talking to has vastly different approach to how they view things in life. But it also begs the question of why would one become invested in the process of trying to help someone if they are not willing to accept that the other person is ultimately going to have to decide what to do in their own lives, and that may not be the advice given. I'm still not entirely sure I understand the OP's meaning, but I think if one finds themselves getting frustrated by people not listening to them, the better course might be to step back and save oneself the aggravation.
Well said!!!!!!!
I agree.0 -
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middlehaitch wrote: »@amy_kee totally agree not everyone can do it on first attempt.
The pic of me (its in my profile) scared me so much I started calorie counting that day and had found an exercise the same week.
As @tomatoey said up thread; for some the scare for weight loss can be as simple as a picture, and as has been discussed, even a death prognosis from a doctor won't work for others.
Maybe we are all special snowflakes after all.
Cheers, h.
We're all wired differently. Some enjoy exercise, pushing themselves harder, the challenge of losing weight, tracking their calories, weight, etc., playing with gadgets and seeing the data. Others hate anything even resembling exercise with a passion, don't ever want to get sweaty for any reason and view losing weight as nothing but deprivation and misery. Some have an iron will, while others will crumble at the first temptation or setback. Some are very self-motivated, while others require a full support crew and cheerleaders every step of the way. With many varying degrees of each in between the extremes.
Similarly, there are some who, if told the next drink/cigarette/fatty food/whatever would kill them, would immediately swear off it and never go near it again. But there are others who reject authority and their rebellious "you're not the boss of me" nature would cause them to go full head-on in defiance just to prove it wasn't true. Others would try to resist, but give in to temptation. And so on.
For some people, just looking in the mirror (or seeing a picture, as you did) and not liking what they see is enough inspiration to set them in motion. Others can stare at a 400-pound reflection in the mirror and just shrug their shoulders helplessly, telling themselves it's just what they are and there's nothing they can do about it - and convince themselves that they'd fail if they tried anyway, so what's the point?
IMO, the reasons for all those things are wide and deep - how you were brought up/grew up, your influences as a child, your psychological makeup, sociological/life experiences, your husband/wife/mate/friends, etc., etc. No two of us have had the same experiences. So in that sense, we are all "special snowflakes".
As far as weight loss/getting fit goes, I agree that not everyone will do it on the first attempt. Some will, some will take several attempts. Some will never succeed, for a variety of reasons. Notice that I said "will", not "can". Anybody "can" succeed at it if they want it badly enough and can reach deep enough for the motivation - but not everybody "will", and I don't think there's any universal one-size-fits-all solution for that.0 -
@AnvilHead that was very well said. What I was thinking but couldn't have ever got into words so nicely.
Cheers, h.0 -
I disagree. Fads appeal because people actually BELIEVE that that's what they need to do for success, regardless if it's extreme or not. Hence why the supplement industry profits by promoting "fat burning" pills even if they don't work. Many people buy them (many without changing their diets at all) because they believe that the pills will burn off their excess fat.
Fads appeal to people because they're extreme. I almost think the weirder the diet the more attractive, for people in certain states of mind. But you couldn't promise a permanent result with any diet. That would be just as suss as the banana thing! Or somewhat suss, anyway.
And really what I'm suggesting is a much more "permanent" solution than what other fads offer.
I think fad diets and scam supplements appeal most to the lazy and those wanting instant gratification. They've been told that calorie deficit and exercise will lead to gradual, sustainable weight loss, but they don't want that - they don't want to change the way they eat and they don't want to have to actually work at something and/or utilize some self-discipline. They desperately want to believe that there's something out there - some magic pill or potion - that will melt the fat off their bodies at the rate of 30 pounds a month without all that icky hard work, even if they know deep inside that it sounds too good to be true. It's not what they believe they NEED to do, it's what they WANT to do because if it works, it's the easy way out.
You've been around MFP long enough and seen the threads. People ask about some scamwoo diet or supplement, are told by 30 people that it won't work and is a waste of their money, and their response is to get defensive and say they're going to do it anyway and they'll prove everybody wrong. Strangely enough, I have yet to see a thread in "Success Stories" where somebody has told the tale of how they lost 50 pounds and 20% bodyfat by taking Garcinia Cambogia or Green Coffee Bean Extract, or doing the 30-day juice fast or military diet or whatever.
The multi-billion dollar diet industry is a giant scam, but it's an easy way to get rich. No matter what useless garbage you put on the market, there will always be millions of desperate people willing to give it a try because maybe this one will be the elusive magic pill - and their thinking is "Why not try it? If it doesn't work, all I wasted was 20 bucks". Get Dr. Oz or one of the many snake oil peddlers to endorse your product, 5 million people try it at 20 bucks apiece, and you've just grossed $100 million dollars!
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to try the "prime rib burrito diet" I just heard about.0 -
Let me try a different approach then.
If anyone who says they "can't" moderate, were told today that if they could moderate, they were "gauranteed" their weekly target loss and wouldn't regain weight (hypothetical) again, do you think the people who stated they couldn't, would?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Except people's weekly target loss is often unrealistic and unsustainable. Many people mentioned instant gratification. But also people leave things til the 11th hour. Then they want to lose 30lbs in 5 weeks for the big event. How many times do we see that sort of thread?
So moderation and 1/2 lb a week weightloss will hold no appeal to them. You've essentially done a sales pitch to the wrong audience. Whereas Dr X is queueing behind you with the latest miracle cure that won't work but by the time the person realises they've bought the product and the event has already happened.
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PeachyCarol wrote: »I think people in this community spend way to much time nitpicking word usage and ascribing deeper psychological meaning to word choice, as though changing "can't" to "won't" will be the breakthrough that causes all weight loss issues to fall into place.
When I see someone here type the word "can't," I don't read that as "I don't want to," "I'm helpless," or "I'm a victim," I read that as the person saying that what they have tried so far has been unsuccessful, and they have been unable to figure out what works for them. I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.
I'd just like to say that sometimes, what you see as a blind spot is simply someone thinking they're not unique and that maybe what worked for them might be helpful if they put it out there for everyone else to see.
I would say the spirit in which personal experience is shared can vary on the forum, but not all sharing of personal experience is done blindly as if it's universal. A lot of us are fully aware that we're all different.
It's funny, I was just talking to my sister the other day, and she's going about losing weight in an entirely different fashion than I am because our personalities are so completely different that different things click for each of us. We were talking about that very thing. In fact, the only thing we have in common is running.
We still shared with each other and from that sharing were able to glean something helpful.
No, that's not what I meant by blind spot at all. There's nothing wrong with sharing what has worked for you and putting it out there as helpful. But when someone rejects that idea, rather than just chalking it up to "this idea isn't going to work for them and their situation," we often see people take that rejection of their advice personally. This leads to ascribing all sorts of issues onto the OP - they aren't ready, they only want to be coddled, this advice works for everyone but you just have to try, you can do this method you just need willpower, you don't want to take responsibility for your actions, etc.
The person doesn't end up getting any closer to figuring out what is going to work for them, because instead of getting ideas to help them get there, they're getting a barrage of posts from people telling them what they think they "need to hear" based on their own experiences with weight loss and what they needed, rather than helping the person flesh out their own issues with weight loss. This is why I disagree with the notion in the OP that people don't want something enough - people base that interpretation on their own set of standards and how they would handle things, rather than how someone else does it.
I don't blame people for that, it can be an incredibly frustrating process, particularly if the person you are talking to has vastly different approach to how they view things in life. But it also begs the question of why would one become invested in the process of trying to help someone if they are not willing to accept that the other person is ultimately going to have to decide what to do in their own lives, and that may not be the advice given. I'm still not entirely sure I understand the OP's meaning, but I think if one finds themselves getting frustrated by people not listening to them, the better course might be to step back and save oneself the aggravation.
So in your scenario OP says 'how can I do X?'
Someone says 'you can do Y.'
OP says 'I can't do that because of Z.'
How many rejected suggestions are posters meant to turn a blind eye to before it's obvious that the OP does not really want help?
At the end of the day some of the members on this forum give away excellent free advice and time so if there's an OP that obviously doesn't want to listen maybe they're not ready to lose weight. I don't see it as cruel or detrimental to their weightloss journey to tell them that.0 -
myfelinepal wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »I think people in this community spend way to much time nitpicking word usage and ascribing deeper psychological meaning to word choice, as though changing "can't" to "won't" will be the breakthrough that causes all weight loss issues to fall into place.
When I see someone here type the word "can't," I don't read that as "I don't want to," "I'm helpless," or "I'm a victim," I read that as the person saying that what they have tried so far has been unsuccessful, and they have been unable to figure out what works for them. I don't think it's matter of not being dedicated or not wanting it enough, they just need help figuring out the formula that will work for them. And I feel like the blind spot we often encounter as a community is giving advice that has worked for us and thinking that it will work for everyone.
I'd just like to say that sometimes, what you see as a blind spot is simply someone thinking they're not unique and that maybe what worked for them might be helpful if they put it out there for everyone else to see.
I would say the spirit in which personal experience is shared can vary on the forum, but not all sharing of personal experience is done blindly as if it's universal. A lot of us are fully aware that we're all different.
It's funny, I was just talking to my sister the other day, and she's going about losing weight in an entirely different fashion than I am because our personalities are so completely different that different things click for each of us. We were talking about that very thing. In fact, the only thing we have in common is running.
We still shared with each other and from that sharing were able to glean something helpful.
No, that's not what I meant by blind spot at all. There's nothing wrong with sharing what has worked for you and putting it out there as helpful. But when someone rejects that idea, rather than just chalking it up to "this idea isn't going to work for them and their situation," we often see people take that rejection of their advice personally. This leads to ascribing all sorts of issues onto the OP - they aren't ready, they only want to be coddled, this advice works for everyone but you just have to try, you can do this method you just need willpower, you don't want to take responsibility for your actions, etc.
The person doesn't end up getting any closer to figuring out what is going to work for them, because instead of getting ideas to help them get there, they're getting a barrage of posts from people telling them what they think they "need to hear" based on their own experiences with weight loss and what they needed, rather than helping the person flesh out their own issues with weight loss. This is why I disagree with the notion in the OP that people don't want something enough - people base that interpretation on their own set of standards and how they would handle things, rather than how someone else does it.
I don't blame people for that, it can be an incredibly frustrating process, particularly if the person you are talking to has vastly different approach to how they view things in life. But it also begs the question of why would one become invested in the process of trying to help someone if they are not willing to accept that the other person is ultimately going to have to decide what to do in their own lives, and that may not be the advice given. I'm still not entirely sure I understand the OP's meaning, but I think if one finds themselves getting frustrated by people not listening to them, the better course might be to step back and save oneself the aggravation.
So in your scenario OP says 'how can I do X?'
Someone says 'you can do Y.'
OP says 'I can't do that because of Z.'
How many rejected suggestions are posters meant to turn a blind eye to before it's obvious that the OP does not really want help?
At the end of the day some of the members on this forum give away excellent free advice and time so if there's an OP that obviously doesn't want to listen maybe they're not ready to lose weight. I don't see it as cruel or detrimental to their weightloss journey to tell them that.
Don't forget, though, that people who are overweight and unfit generally don't feel well. Their bodies aren't functioning optimally. Many really are quite tired - hormonal / IR issues often kick in with obesity even if they weren't there before. And for some of them, the fix for that low energy is often short-term, quick, energy boosts to get through the day, making things worse. Those energy boosts aren't usually particularly filling, so they need more of them, etc.
Maybe that day is part of a 60 hour week - which is enforced sedentarism in the case of office work; a long commute across a city made for cars; and family obligations, in addition to whatever psychological stuff. It's not like a lot of workplaces and neighbourhoods make it particularly *easy* to be fit and eat well, you have to work at it. And that's harder if you already feel tired and unwell.
Basically, I think a lot of people do have legitimate obstacles that are hard to approach when they most need to, and they might need a few incentives to line up in order for them to get enough drive to get past the initial hump.
(And if they've never successfully lost before, they don't have that experiential knowledge about sustainable loss, so "why not" go for one of these magic fixes?)
I've seen more than a few threads where the OP came in all "military diet" or whatever or "I can't stop eating" and MFPers have troubleshooted them out of it. I think it helps when some members acknowledge - that is, validate - that sense of desperation and powerlessness, instead of shaming them for it, work through the issues, and offer specific and tailored dietary strategies.
"Be a better kind of person, have more willpower" - I don't know, does that work?0
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