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Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic Dieting - or, Why Most Advice You Get is Useless
rankinsect
Posts: 2,238 Member
In our world, we're frequently bombarded by all these diet "tips". How many of these have you heard?
* Don't eat after 7 PM
* Drink water before meals
* Cut back on added sugar
* Eat whole foods
* Use smaller plates
* Don't drink any soda - regular or diet
* Eat this not that
* Etc., etc., etc.
Now, let me start off by saying two things. First, most of these kinds of things will help people lose weight. Second, most of these kinds of things are completely irrelevant to you.
This may seem like I just contradicted myself - are these things useful, or useless? Well, that depends on how you're controlling your eating overall.
First and foremost, all weight change is fundamentally caused by energy balance. Eating less than you burn causes you to lose weight. Eating more than you burn causes you to gain weight. Eating the same as you burn causes you to maintain weight.
Most of the population eats based on what I will call intrinsic control - they allow appetite, social custom, and satiety to control their food intake. In these situations, a lot of those tips actually work. But here's the key - they work because they cause an overall calorie reduction. Drinking water before a meal makes you less hungry, and you eat fewer calories because of that. Stopping eating at 7 PM is likely for many people to reduce their total eating for the day. Processed foods and foods that are high in sugar tend to be less filling in general, and cause people to be hungrier, leading them to tend to eat more. Some of the benefit comes from simply paying more attention to one's eating, which by itself causes one to eat less.
Essentially, these tips work by the following formula:
Do behavior X -> Eat fewer calories -> Lose weight
If you're on this site and using the MFP methods, however, you're using what I call extrinsic control. You are not "most of the population"; you are directly controlling your calorie intake via calorie counting rather than hunger, satiety, and social cues. In such a situation, these tips are no longer relevant to you, because you're directly manipulating calories. For you, the formula is one step simpler:
Eat fewer calories -> Lose weight
So for people counting calories, most of the tips you hear are totally irrelevant, because now behavior X is no longer correlated with your total calories consumed. It doesn't matter if you eat 1500 calories before 7 PM, or you eat 1500 calories before and after 7 PM. The 7 PM rule no longer applies because the behavior no longer affects your calories consumed; it's become irrelevant to you. It's very relevant to the intrinsically controlled dieter who now eats 1500 calories instead of 1900 calories because they cut out late night snacking.
Most of these tips are benign, but they can be harmful if you start to think you NEED to follow them, and end up making dieting far more complex than it needs to be. You don't need to follow any of them, you just need a calorie deficit. Think of these as tricks to help intrinsic dieters establish a deficit. For those extrinsically controlling their calories, most of these are simply neutral - no harm or benefit.
The one exception is that the tools that directly impact hunger and satiety (eating more fiber, drinking water before a meal, etc.) can be useful in increasing compliance. If you are trying to eat at a reasonable deficit and are still struggling with hunger or cravings, these techniques can be useful to you. But again, certainly not required. If any of these tips help you stick to your diet, great, incorporate them, but do so knowing that they are only tools helping you stay on track.
* Don't eat after 7 PM
* Drink water before meals
* Cut back on added sugar
* Eat whole foods
* Use smaller plates
* Don't drink any soda - regular or diet
* Eat this not that
* Etc., etc., etc.
Now, let me start off by saying two things. First, most of these kinds of things will help people lose weight. Second, most of these kinds of things are completely irrelevant to you.
This may seem like I just contradicted myself - are these things useful, or useless? Well, that depends on how you're controlling your eating overall.
First and foremost, all weight change is fundamentally caused by energy balance. Eating less than you burn causes you to lose weight. Eating more than you burn causes you to gain weight. Eating the same as you burn causes you to maintain weight.
Most of the population eats based on what I will call intrinsic control - they allow appetite, social custom, and satiety to control their food intake. In these situations, a lot of those tips actually work. But here's the key - they work because they cause an overall calorie reduction. Drinking water before a meal makes you less hungry, and you eat fewer calories because of that. Stopping eating at 7 PM is likely for many people to reduce their total eating for the day. Processed foods and foods that are high in sugar tend to be less filling in general, and cause people to be hungrier, leading them to tend to eat more. Some of the benefit comes from simply paying more attention to one's eating, which by itself causes one to eat less.
Essentially, these tips work by the following formula:
Do behavior X -> Eat fewer calories -> Lose weight
If you're on this site and using the MFP methods, however, you're using what I call extrinsic control. You are not "most of the population"; you are directly controlling your calorie intake via calorie counting rather than hunger, satiety, and social cues. In such a situation, these tips are no longer relevant to you, because you're directly manipulating calories. For you, the formula is one step simpler:
Eat fewer calories -> Lose weight
So for people counting calories, most of the tips you hear are totally irrelevant, because now behavior X is no longer correlated with your total calories consumed. It doesn't matter if you eat 1500 calories before 7 PM, or you eat 1500 calories before and after 7 PM. The 7 PM rule no longer applies because the behavior no longer affects your calories consumed; it's become irrelevant to you. It's very relevant to the intrinsically controlled dieter who now eats 1500 calories instead of 1900 calories because they cut out late night snacking.
Most of these tips are benign, but they can be harmful if you start to think you NEED to follow them, and end up making dieting far more complex than it needs to be. You don't need to follow any of them, you just need a calorie deficit. Think of these as tricks to help intrinsic dieters establish a deficit. For those extrinsically controlling their calories, most of these are simply neutral - no harm or benefit.
The one exception is that the tools that directly impact hunger and satiety (eating more fiber, drinking water before a meal, etc.) can be useful in increasing compliance. If you are trying to eat at a reasonable deficit and are still struggling with hunger or cravings, these techniques can be useful to you. But again, certainly not required. If any of these tips help you stick to your diet, great, incorporate them, but do so knowing that they are only tools helping you stay on track.
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Replies
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I like you0
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Interesting0
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Great post.0
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well said!0
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rankinsect wrote: »In our world, we're frequently bombarded by all these diet "tips". How many of these have you heard?
* Don't eat after 7 PM
* Drink water before meals
* Cut back on added sugar
* Eat whole foods
* Use smaller plates
* Don't drink any soda - regular or diet
* Eat this not that
* Etc., etc., etc.
[snip]
Most of these tips are benign, but they can be harmful if you start to think you NEED to follow them, and end up making dieting far more complex than it needs to be.
[snip]
Exactly why I gave up altogether. How many years of pain and shame could I have avoided without all that mess floating around, telling me "do x or you won't lose," but I hated x, couldn't keep up with x, and just accepted that I was doomed to be fat forever. Along came MFP, and just with counting calories and walking, I've undone about 10 years of damage in a a little under a year.
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I would add that the other exception would be the tools that directly (and negatively) impact health for some individuals.0
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PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »rankinsect wrote: »In our world, we're frequently bombarded by all these diet "tips". How many of these have you heard?
* Don't eat after 7 PM
* Drink water before meals
* Cut back on added sugar
* Eat whole foods
* Use smaller plates
* Don't drink any soda - regular or diet
* Eat this not that
* Etc., etc., etc.
[snip]
Most of these tips are benign, but they can be harmful if you start to think you NEED to follow them, and end up making dieting far more complex than it needs to be.
[snip]
Exactly why I gave up altogether. How many years of pain and shame could I have avoided without all that mess floating around, telling me "do x or you won't lose," but I hated x, couldn't keep up with x, and just accepted that I was doomed to be fat forever. Along came MFP, and just with counting calories and walking, I've undone about 10 years of damage in a a little under a year.
Yeah, I spent many years thinking I couldn't lose weight because so much of the advice - particularly eating a large breakfast and a small dinner - just wasn't doable for me. I'm never hungry in the mornings, and it's hard to force myself to eat then. When I started seeing all these diet tips as just tricks to help people maintain a deficit, I realized I could pick the ones that specifically helped me to keep at my deficit and ignore all the rest.I would add that the other exception are the tools that directly (and negatively) impact health for some individuals.
Very true. There are definitely health and fitness aspects that go beyond merely body weight, and people who have medical issues with certain types of foods definitely need to be aware of those.0 -
Very nice post OP 0
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So if most advice is useless what makes your advice the exception to your own belief?
Not trolling, just genuinely curious. After all, these concepts of intrinsic and extrinsic control are things you've conjured up from nothing more than personal opinion.
And while I'm thinking about your presented topic and argument how, exactly, are they harmful? You make the claim but you don't actually elucidate the actual damage wrought. It's like talk of those nefarious toxins some generic detox plan eliminates.When I started seeing all these diet tips as just tricks to help people maintain a deficit, I realized I could pick the ones that specifically helped me to keep at my deficit and ignore all the rest.
This is a valid, thoughtful, and reasonable point. In my opinion, this is the message you should be trying to spread. Not some anecdotal sweeping generalization account of how people you don't know are controlling their eating overall. Because I assure you somewhere someone in all of the MFPland unique user account rolls does not tidily fit into the either/or construct you've presented.0 -
My advice is to smile and nod, while mentally strangling them.0
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You seem to be misreading the OP. (Cross-posted -- aimed at grinning chick.)0
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rankinsect wrote: »Second, most of these kinds of things are completely irrelevant to you.
Correction: most of these kinds of things are completely irrelevant to YOU. They may be very relevant and appropriate strategies that help some people maintain a calorie deficit.
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grinning_chick wrote: »
Not trolling, just genuinely curious. After all, these concepts of intrinsic and extrinsic control are things you've conjured up from nothing more than personal opinion.
The concepts of intrinsic vs extrinsic behavior and/or motivation are well documented and studied in the field of psychology. Applying these concepts to eating behavior is not something "conjured up", but rather a logical progression.0 -
The problem is that people get told to do them as if they matters independent of the calorie deficit, and some feel like they have to do them in order to lose, making things a lot harder for themselves. Understanding -- as OP said -- that they are merely ways to achieve a deficit without counting and only useful IF they actually help you achieve a deficit is good information, as you can pick and choose.
For example, people often get told to eat lots of mini meals, but I find I am more satisfied and naturally eat less if I stick to 3 regular meals. Snacking doesn't work for me, which is fine, it might work for others, but when people are told they must eat lots of mini meals to lose (as many seem to believe) due to metabolism or some such, then they may drive themselves crazy thinking they would lose more weight if they did that. Similarly, I get home late and eat late and would say that eating dinner after 9 actually is one reason I'm never inclined to snack at night. Others find having a cutoff time helps them not overeat at night. Again, that's great IF they understand it's about calories and personal strategies and don't tell others that they can't lose if they eat at night (or think they cannot even if that strategy is not working for them, as we see very often in posts here).0 -
rosebarnalice wrote: »rankinsect wrote: »Second, most of these kinds of things are completely irrelevant to you.
Correction: most of these kinds of things are completely irrelevant to YOU. They may be very relevant and appropriate strategies that help some people maintain a calorie deficit.
He said that, though.0 -
grinning_chick wrote: »So if most advice is useless what makes your advice the exception to your own belief?
Not trolling, just genuinely curious. After all, these concepts of intrinsic and extrinsic control are things you've conjured up from nothing more than personal opinion.
And while I'm thinking about your presented topic and argument how, exactly, are they harmful? You make the claim but you don't actually elucidate the actual damage wrought. It's like talk of those nefarious toxins some generic detox plan eliminates.
Here's one example - we get many threads from people for whom not eating after 7 doesn't work, yet they have this idea that they must not eat after 7, and so have lots of confusion and conflict about this notion. One poster in particular would be awoken from sleep with hunger.
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Yet another good post @rankinsect.
Pointing out that it is the CICO aspect of any diet 'tip' is the important aspect and the diet 'tip' is an optional way to comply, if it is sustainable to the individual, is something that is often overlooked in the eat what and when you like so long as you are doing CICO atmosphere MFP forums often generate.
Some people do respond better to reasonable restrictions ( as well as CICO) better than the whatever and whenever ethos.
Each of us eventually find the way that works best for us. A glass of water before dinner would leave me too full to eat dinner; my SO more often than not has one so he is sated on fewer calories.
Cheers, h.0 -
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I didn't lose weight until I stopped listening to these and bro science. Very good.0
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grinning_chick wrote: »So if most advice is useless what makes your advice the exception to your own belief?
Not trolling, just genuinely curious. After all, these concepts of intrinsic and extrinsic control are things you've conjured up from nothing more than personal opinion.
And while I'm thinking about your presented topic and argument how, exactly, are they harmful? You make the claim but you don't actually elucidate the actual damage wrought. It's like talk of those nefarious toxins some generic detox plan eliminates.
The fact that his advice is founded on solid logic that can be supported by thought. If someone makes the statement that there are 4000kcal in a lb of fat, I can't necessarily tell them they are wrong or right from the argument itself. Now if someone states that 2+3=4, I can rationally disprove this by re-arranging to show that 2=1, which is obviously a false statement. Same can be said of the OPs post.
Ignoring that intrinsic/extrinisc are well established psychology concepts, he defined:
Intrinsic = natural eating without worrying about calories
Extrinsic = counting calories to control energy balance
Since OP defined them, he/she can use those terms however he wants provided the OP remains logically consistent.
The argument is that these tips help people that don't count calories. We know weight loss comes down to CICO. So, none of those listed advice is capable of helping if they don't play a role in CICO, as that is necessary for weight loss, and subsequently that the purpose of the advice must be to help people in maintaining CI<CO.
If you count calories CI<CO is, by definition, maintained. Which means any of the advice is, by definition, superfluous with respect to controlling CICO.
They can be arguably harmful, because none of these are things you HAVE to do to lose weight, but are often presented as such. If a person believes they MUST eat every 3 hours a small meal, but for them that makes them never feel satisfied and like they can eat a proper meal, it results in them adapting a diet that isn't suited for them and that they will struggle to follow compared to what works better of them.When I started seeing all these diet tips as just tricks to help people maintain a deficit, I realized I could pick the ones that specifically helped me to keep at my deficit and ignore all the rest.grinning_chick wrote: »Not some anecdotal sweeping generalization account of how people you don't know are controlling their eating overall.
It's not anecdotal. It's fundamentally correct logic. 2+2 = 4 applies no matter who the person doing the equation is and what their circumstances are.0 -
Good points. However, I've seen intrinsic fans scoff at calorie counting because they think we act like robots: weigh and log and when you have hit your limit you stop eating.
I'd like to think most of us are smarter than that. We've developed many strategies to safekeep our goal (deficit). Prelogging/meal planning, macros, eating food that maximizes nutrition and satiety, to name a few. Maybe they are not glamorous and therefore not offered in magazines, but there are lots of tips to ensure deficit.
Maybe some people really can just weigh, eat, log and stop when they hit their limit. But not me. I would be miserable with that approach. I need the tools I've leaned to ensure I get what I need (nutrition and satiety) and what I want (Yum) otherwise I will fail.0 -
Very well written OP.
Too many people believe there is a magical "secret trick" to weight loss. That only one thing will ever unlock the door and nothing else will.
In the end, CICO is the rule to weightloss. How you do that is up to you. A family member has lost weight by cutting out sugar, while I prefer calorie counting as it allows me to feel "free" while i'm restricting how much I eat.
I really think the huge health/weightloss/fitness trend has made pushing "secret tricks" so profitable and so very widespread. I can't go a day on facebook anymore without seeing a sponsored ad for "Secret weightloss skinny tea".0 -
Great post
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So true! Thanks!0
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Bumping as I've just now seen this thread. This is really well stated and explains in a nutshell a lot of the dynamics and cross-purposes we see on the forums.0
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grinning_chick wrote: »So if most advice is useless what makes your advice the exception to your own belief?
Not trolling, just genuinely curious. After all, these concepts of intrinsic and extrinsic control are things you've conjured up from nothing more than personal opinion.
And while I'm thinking about your presented topic and argument how, exactly, are they harmful? You make the claim but you don't actually elucidate the actual damage wrought. It's like talk of those nefarious toxins some generic detox plan eliminates.
The fact that his advice is founded on solid logic that can be supported by thought. If someone makes the statement that there are 4000kcal in a lb of fat, I can't necessarily tell them they are wrong or right from the argument itself. Now if someone states that 2+3=4, I can rationally disprove this by re-arranging to show that 2=1, which is obviously a false statement. Same can be said of the OPs post.
Ignoring that intrinsic/extrinisc are well established psychology concepts, he defined:
Intrinsic = natural eating without worrying about calories
Extrinsic = counting calories to control energy balance
Since OP defined them, he/she can use those terms however he wants provided the OP remains logically consistent.
The argument is that these tips help people that don't count calories. We know weight loss comes down to CICO. So, none of those listed advice is capable of helping if they don't play a role in CICO, as that is necessary for weight loss, and subsequently that the purpose of the advice must be to help people in maintaining CI<CO.
If you count calories CI<CO is, by definition, maintained. Which means any of the advice is, by definition, superfluous with respect to controlling CICO.
They can be arguably harmful, because none of these are things you HAVE to do to lose weight, but are often presented as such. If a person believes they MUST eat every 3 hours a small meal, but for them that makes them never feel satisfied and like they can eat a proper meal, it results in them adapting a diet that isn't suited for them and that they will struggle to follow compared to what works better of them.When I started seeing all these diet tips as just tricks to help people maintain a deficit, I realized I could pick the ones that specifically helped me to keep at my deficit and ignore all the rest.grinning_chick wrote: »Not some anecdotal sweeping generalization account of how people you don't know are controlling their eating overall.
It's not anecdotal. It's fundamentally correct logic. 2+2 = 4 applies no matter who the person doing the equation is and what their circumstances are.
Not that I disagree with your points above, but I did not take OP's use of the term intrinsic to mean that the person ate without worrying about calories. I took it to mean that they simply use an intrinsic signal to tell them how much to eat (whether that is hunger, social intuition, etc.) whereas a calorie counter uses an extrinsic signal (I've reached my calorie goal).0 -
Excellent OP.0
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I totally agree - though I think you have your extrinsic and intrinsic backwards. Extrinsic is extertnally controled (hence the ex bit). Intrinsic is the internally controlled (hence the in bit). Other than that, spot on.
I have never needed to follow any of the tips/ tools nor ever felt the need to. I grew up with CICO as the over riding concept.0 -
Extrinsic (external): eat at a calorie deficit. It's advice that is objectively factual and realistic, and works for everyone.
Intrinsic (internal): things that complicate matters and may or may not work for you. Subjective advice, that works depending on many factors.0
This discussion has been closed.
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