Cardio vs. Heavy Lifting-Timing during weight loss

britzzie

I know there are tons of threads out there, but I'd like some folks to weigh in on my specific situation. Thanks in advance!!

I've lost about 75lbs and have around 35 to go. I weigh around 202 lbs at 5' 9" and want to be at 168ish. I already have a pretty muscular build.

Right now I'm eating 1400-1500 calories/day and doing Insanity. I've heard a lot about heavy lifting and eating at TDEE -15-20% for a long time and am wondering if I should change it up at this point. I know building muscle takes eating at a surplus, and I really don't think I want to do that. But I want to get solid muscle. Can you do that without building/eating at a surplus? I know I will get a lot of people telling me to eat more. I'm open to that.

I guess my real question is: Is it the right time for me to move to heavy lifting even though I still want to eat at a deficit to lose fat? Or should I get closer to my goal first?

Sorry if my post is confusing and my questions are all over the place!

chub89

By "get solid muscle" are u referring to retaining your current muscle while on a deficit. If so just lift heavy.

britzzie

I think so. I don't think I need more of it. I think I would like to be stronger and more solid. Is that the same as building?

SideSteel

I think you need to define "more solid".

I think that if you keep losing fat while maintaining/retaining the muscle you currently have, you will achieve this "more solid" look that you're referring to, but that's as close as I can get to understanding your definition of solid.

You lift weights to attempt to retain muscle while dieting so that the weight you do lose comes mostly from fat stores.

You can build some muscle in a deficit under specific conditions and being a new lifter chances of this are reasonably good. You just won't build as much as someone in a surplus, and you won't experience these gains for extended time while in a deficit.

This topic (muscle building in a deficit) usually results in a pissing match with people taking an all or nothing stance and excluding the middle and ignoring context entirely and it becomes quite comical.

Food for thought:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excluding-the-middle.html

weightsoverdates

If by building you mean something along the lines of lean bulking (putting on muscle and not too much fat) for that you need to eat at roughly 15 - 20% extra calories (from maintenance) if you want to do just normal bulking you'd probably be looking at eating close to an extra 1000 - 1500 calories but weight gain (fat) will be high than lean bulking, but as the idea suggests you won't put on as much muscle.

Eating at a deficit will always cause some muscle loss however research has shown that if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle while in a deficit.

tl;dr

Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle
Eating in excess will always cause some sort of fat gain, if you lift heavy you will put on some muscle and some fat

If you want to get stronger you will need to eat in surplus to see proper strength gains, and you will need to change your program to something along the lines of a 5 x 5 or 3 x 5 as that is generally said to encourage strength gains where as 8 - 12 reps generally encourages hypertrophy (muscle size growth, so basically you can have big muscles without maximum lifting ability)

SideSteel

Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle

This isn't necessarily true as it depends on context and duration (among other factors).

britzzie

Thanks for the heads up. Yea, the forums get a little craaaazy at times.

Sorry if I'm not being clear.

So to me, more solid = more defined & harder.

Sounds like it's important for me to start introducing lifting, to make sure I am losing fat rather than muscle regardless of what the result will be.

Thanks for the help!

SideSteel

Thanks for the heads up. Yea, the forums get a little craaaazy at times.

Sorry if I'm not being clear.

So to me, more solid = more defined & harder.

Sounds like it's important for me to start introducing lifting, to make sure I am losing fat rather than muscle regardless of what the result will be.

Thanks for the help!

Based on your definition your goal is fat loss.
I would recommend some form of resistance training ~3 times/week or so to help maintain muscle mass as you lose weight.

KatLifter

I think so. I don't think I need more of it. I think I would like to be stronger and more solid. Is that the same as building?

If you're eating at a deficit, you won't gain any more muscle. What will happen is you'll keep (more of) the muscle you have. When you lose bodyfat you'll look more solid. I think this is what you mean?

So yup, eat at a deficit and lift all the heavy things! I love Nia Shanks and her approach, www.niashanks.com.

britzzie

If by building you mean something along the lines of lean bulking (putting on muscle and not too much fat) for that you need to eat at roughly 15 - 20% extra calories (from maintenance) if you want to do just normal bulking you'd probably be looking at eating close to an extra 1000 - 1500 calories but weight gain (fat) will be high than lean bulking, but as the idea suggests you won't put on as much muscle.

Eating at a deficit will always cause some muscle loss however research has shown that if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle while in a deficit.

tl;dr

Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle
Eating in excess will always cause some sort of fat gain, if you lift heavy you will put on some muscle and some fat

If you want to get stronger you will need to eat in surplus to see proper strength gains, and you will need to change your program to something along the lines of a 5 x 5 or 3 x 5 as that is generally said to encourage strength gains where as 8 - 12 reps generally encourages hypertrophy (muscle size growth, so basically you can have big muscles without maximum lifting ability)

I don't want to gain weight. (I know this can be part of it, but in the end I need to be lighter.) Also, I can't get stronger while eating at a deficit? So getting stronger (being able to lift more) = building? You can't increase strength without building, therefore, you can't get stronger without eating at a surplus? Is that right?

Not being snarky. But I'm a logical person trying to understand.

britzzie

Thanks for the heads up. Yea, the forums get a little craaaazy at times.

Sorry if I'm not being clear.

So to me, more solid = more defined & harder.

Sounds like it's important for me to start introducing lifting, to make sure I am losing fat rather than muscle regardless of what the result will be.

Thanks for the help!

Based on your definition your goal is fat loss.
I would recommend some form of resistance training ~3 times/week or so to help maintain muscle mass as you lose weight.

Very helpful. You rock! Enjoy the weekend! :drinker:

kavanaghev

I feel like genetics must play a big role in this as well because I don't think I build muscle very quickly at all, but I have had a relatively easy time retaining it while losing fat, and I have always been pretty strong underneath my fluff. Some people may struggle or have to tweak their diets/exercise a lot more to have the same result. I will say though that I never had a "just cardio and caloric deficit" time period in my weight loss calendar... I have always incorporated strength training (although the type of training has evolved), and I am sure that has contributed to any muscle retention.

weightsoverdates

Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle

This isn't necessarily true as it depends on context and duration (among other factors).

What do you mean by context?

If you aren't eating at maintenance or at a surplus (after exercising) your body will be in a catabolic state unless you are also taking an anti-catabolic but even that has limiting factors. If you keep lifting you will retain you strength gains but you are most certainly going to lose some muscle, even if it's a small percentage.

"Physiologically, the key to gaining muscle mass is to consume more energy than you expend while focusing on high-intensity resistance training (Lambert, Frank & Evans et al. 2004). Nutritionists and other health professionals have long understood the importance of tipping the energy scales in favor of excess kcal consumption for muscle gain. Although this view may be criticized for being overly simplistic (and the method may sometimes be ineffective), energy intake is usually considered a critical strategy for muscle gain."

- http://www.ideafit.com/fitness-library/tailoring-nutrient-intake-exercise-goals-0

If OP wants to tone up her best option is to balance out the cardio and weights and increase her calories slightly (depending how long you have been on 1400 - 1500, that last thing you want to do is ruin your metabolism because of low calorie eating while doing high intensity cardio in excess), however studies have found that doing cardio or weights separately is more effective at raising you after burn than doing cardio then weights (however that's even better than doing weights than cardio)

weightsoverdates

It all has to do with the ratio of fast twitch and slow twitch muscles (plus high can sometimes be a factor) if you notice a lot of stronglift guys are pretty short.

sullus

There shouldnt be a problem lifting heavy and eating at a deficit. I'm doing this right now.

So here's my little anecdote on this. This isn't science. This is just my observation of me.

I work with a trainer 3 days a week, and we change up what I'm doing every 6-8 weeks. When I went from lifting heavy (which I'm defining as 6-8 reps to failure) to doing more cardio based workouts (rope slams, burpees, ladders, some lighter weights (10-15 reps), etc) I found I still continued to lose, but I felt (and got) a little flabbier. I gained about an inch on my waist (non-scientifically measured by where I was comfortably buckling my belt), my stomach jiggled a little more, and that vein I was seeing on my arms went away.

For the last 3 weeks, we've been back to lifting heavy. The jiggle went away, the belt's back down to notch #4, and I have my vein back, I'm seeing a little more definition, I feel a little bigger in the chest and arms, and I'm still losing.

Additionally, I run 2.5-3.5 miles 3x a week. This has not changed.

So anyway .. that's me. I like lifting heavy and eating at a deficit. It seems to work splendidly.

SideSteel

Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle

This isn't necessarily true as it depends on context and duration (among other factors).

What do you mean by context?

If you aren't eating at maintenance or at a surplus (after exercising) your body will be in a catabolic state unless you are also taking an anti-catabolic but even that has limiting factors. If you keep lifting you will retain you strength gains but you are most certainly going to lose some muscle, even if it's a small percentage.

"Physiologically, the key to gaining muscle mass is to consume more energy than you expend while focusing on high-intensity resistance training (Lambert, Frank & Evans et al. 2004). Nutritionists and other health professionals have long understood the importance of tipping the energy scales in favor of excess kcal consumption for muscle gain. Although this view may be criticized for being overly simplistic (and the method may sometimes be ineffective), energy intake is usually considered a critical strategy for muscle gain."

- http://www.ideafit.com/fitness-library/tailoring-nutrient-intake-exercise-goals-0

If OP wants to tone up her best option is to balance out the cardio and weights and increase her calories slightly (depending how long you have been on 1400 - 1500, that last thing you want to do is ruin your metabolism because of low calorie eating while doing high intensity cardio in excess), however studies have found that doing cardio or weights separately is more effective at raising you after burn than doing cardio then weights (however that's even better than doing weights than cardio)

Please read this:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

Capt_Apollo

everything sidesteel said.

RGv2

If by building you mean something along the lines of lean bulking (putting on muscle and not too much fat) for that you need to eat at roughly 15 - 20% extra calories (from maintenance) if you want to do just normal bulking you'd probably be looking at eating close to an extra 1000 - 1500 calories but weight gain (fat) will be high than lean bulking, but as the idea suggests you won't put on as much muscle.

Eating at a deficit will always cause some muscle loss however research has shown that if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle while in a deficit.

tl;dr

Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle
Eating in excess will always cause some sort of fat gain, if you lift heavy you will put on some muscle and some fat

If you want to get stronger you will need to eat in surplus to see proper strength gains, and you will need to change your program to something along the lines of a 5 x 5 or 3 x 5 as that is generally said to encourage strength gains where as 8 - 12 reps generally encourages hypertrophy (muscle size growth, so basically you can have big muscles without maximum lifting ability)

I don't want to gain weight. (I know this can be part of it, but in the end I need to be lighter.) Also, I can't get stronger while eating at a deficit? So getting stronger (being able to lift more) = building? You can't increase strength without building, therefore, you can't get stronger without eating at a surplus? Is that right?

Not being snarky. But I'm a logical person trying to understand.

Yes, you can increase strength while on a deficit. Gaining strength =/= Muscle Gain.

nessa2BFit

I've lost about 75lbs and have around 35 to go. I weigh around 202 lbs at 5' 9" and want to be at 168ish. I already have a pretty muscular build.

Right now I'm eating 1400-1500 calories/day and doing Insanity. I've heard a lot about heavy lifting and eating at TDEE -15-20% for a long time and am wondering if I should change it up at this point. I know building muscle takes eating at a surplus, and I really don't think I want to do that. But I want to get solid muscle. Can you do that without building/eating at a surplus? I know I will get a lot of people telling me to eat more. I'm open to that. "


thanks for the thread... this could have been my post except i am at 209! i have been lifting heavy using New rules of lifting for woman. for me i want to lose fat and see the muscle i have underneath. i definatly don't want to lose muscle and if i gain any along the way that is great. I am going to eat at a deficit til i reach my goal then will eat at a surplus and want to gain back with muscle. it is hard for me to get my brain to understand alot of this. since lifting i have maintained my weight.

Sarauk2sf

Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle

This isn't necessarily true as it depends on context and duration (among other factors).

What do you mean by context?

If you aren't eating at maintenance or at a surplus (after exercising) your body will be in a catabolic state unless you are also taking an anti-catabolic but even that has limiting factors. If you keep lifting you will retain you strength gains but you are most certainly going to lose some muscle, even if it's a small percentage.

"Physiologically, the key to gaining muscle mass is to consume more energy than you expend while focusing on high-intensity resistance training (Lambert, Frank & Evans et al. 2004). Nutritionists and other health professionals have long understood the importance of tipping the energy scales in favor of excess kcal consumption for muscle gain. Although this view may be criticized for being overly simplistic (and the method may sometimes be ineffective), energy intake is usually considered a critical strategy for muscle gain."

- http://www.ideafit.com/fitness-library/tailoring-nutrient-intake-exercise-goals-0

If OP wants to tone up her best option is to balance out the cardio and weights and increase her calories slightly (depending how long you have been on 1400 - 1500, that last thing you want to do is ruin your metabolism because of low calorie eating while doing high intensity cardio in excess), however studies have found that doing cardio or weights separately is more effective at raising you after burn than doing cardio then weights (however that's even better than doing weights than cardio)

Not necessarily. Context is relevant. How new someone is to training, how large the deficit, their diet, how lean someone is, training intensity, genetics, gender and age all some into play. But you do not necessarily lose muscle.

weightsoverdates

You can get stronger but your muscles won't grow in size as much.

Reading that article it seems more related to newbie gains and/or utilizing existing body fat as an energy source over caloric intake and affects beginners rather than intermediate lifters. So while she has 15kg to go this is only going to work for a short period of time. She will make and retain strength gains but after some time as the article states it will be harder to encourage the muscle growth.

From what I've learnt as a PT muscle hypertrophy only occurs during a surplus of calories and trying to create an anabolic environment on a deficit is near impossible even with anti-catabolics.