Cardio vs. Heavy Lifting-Timing during weight loss

IronPlayground

If you want to get stronger you will need to eat in surplus to see proper strength gains, and you will need to change your program to something along the lines of a 5 x 5 or 3 x 5 as that is generally said to encourage strength gains where as 8 - 12 reps generally encourages hypertrophy (muscle size growth, so basically you can have big muscles without maximum lifting ability)

This isn't accurate. You can have neurological adaptations to increase resistance training. You would be training your central nervous system to accept heavy weight. Which results in gaining strength while eating at a moderate deficit.

SideSteel

I should clarify my position on this:

If your GOAL is to gain muscle you should be in an energy surplus. My rebuttal was that it is not impossible to gain muscle in a deficit and you should consider context.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21558571

Full text attached in reply #6 by Wonderpug here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=141780961&page=1

You'll note that they show muscle gain and fat loss concurrently while in an energy deficit.

The claim that it cannot happen is just silly, and these weren't even obese beginners.

There are other studies that show the same thing occurring in overweight and untrained folks, and it's relatively normal for something like this to happen under that specific context.

SideSteel

You can get stronger but your muscles won't grow in size as much.

Reading that article it seems more related to newbie gains and/or utilizing existing body fat as an energy source over caloric intake and affects beginners rather than intermediate lifters. So while she has 15kg to go this is only going to work for a short period of time. She will make and retain strength gains but after some time as the article states it will be harder to encourage the muscle growth.

From what I've learnt as a PT muscle hypertrophy only occurs during a surplus of calories and trying to create an anabolic environment on a deficit is near impossible even with anti-catabolics.

This is called context.

You are correct, it will happen in beginners but your original statement was this:

Eating at a deficit will always cause some muscle loss

which is incorrect.



Also to note, and this is with absolutely no disrespect to the OP:

1) She is overweight. I do not say that judgmentally, just an observation of her stats.
2) She is new to heavy lifting.

In other words, she fits the context.

britzzie

Thanks, all! Here's my plan:

I will increase cals to TDEE-20%. I will do cardio 3x/week and heavy lifting 3x/week on separate days. Anything else I should be doing.

And no offense taken. I'm overweight now, but I'm working on it : )

jenluvsushi

Believe it or not, you probably have a ton of muscle already. If you start heavy lifting now, as you lose weight you will look muscular because heavy lifting helps you maintain your muscle mass as you lose. It isn't about growing muscle when you are cutting fat in a caloric deficit....it's about maintaining what you already have. I suggest to EVERYONE.....start lifting now, not when you are close to goal. People who lose a ton of weight are often very disappointed by what they see after weight loss alone. I didn't want to just lose weight but look the same...I wanted to change my shape. Heavy lifting is where it is at!

DreamOfSunshine

bump to read later as I'm close to your situation right now. Thanks for the topic!!

SideSteel

Thanks, all! Here's my plan:

I will increase cals to TDEE-20%. I will do cardio 3x/week and heavy lifting 3x/week on separate days. Anything else I should be doing.

And no offense taken. I'm overweight now, but I'm working on it : )

You are doing great and you're getting results. Thank you for not taking offense to my comment as I was simply trying to point out that you fit the context I was referring to.

timbrom

If by building you mean something along the lines of lean bulking (putting on muscle and not too much fat) for that you need to eat at roughly 15 - 20% extra calories (from maintenance) if you want to do just normal bulking you'd probably be looking at eating close to an extra 1000 - 1500 calories but weight gain (fat) will be high than lean bulking, but as the idea suggests you won't put on as much muscle.

Eating at a deficit will always cause some muscle loss however research has shown that if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle while in a deficit.

tl;dr

Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle
Eating in excess will always cause some sort of fat gain, if you lift heavy you will put on some muscle and some fat

If you want to get stronger you will need to eat in surplus to see proper strength gains, and you will need to change your program to something along the lines of a 5 x 5 or 3 x 5 as that is generally said to encourage strength gains where as 8 - 12 reps generally encourages hypertrophy (muscle size growth, so basically you can have big muscles without maximum lifting ability)

I don't want to gain weight. (I know this can be part of it, but in the end I need to be lighter.) Also, I can't get stronger while eating at a deficit? So getting stronger (being able to lift more) = building? You can't increase strength without building, therefore, you can't get stronger without eating at a surplus? Is that right?

Not being snarky. But I'm a logical person trying to understand.

I'm going to try to get this thread back on track before it completely devolves into the rather tiresome "You can't gain muscle mass on a deficit." "Nuh-uh! Yes you can" thread.

Strength is not completely related to muscle size. Part of strength is training your brain and your neural pathways to lift heavier things. When your brain sends a signal to a muscle to contract, your brain only signals enough of your muscle fibers to contract to lift the thing you are trying to lift. This is why when you go to lift a bucket that you think is full, but is actually empty you end up throwing the bucket through the roof, or vice versa you don't even budge the bucket, but once you realize it's actually full you can lift it with ease.

Strength training will train your neural pathways to utilize more of your existing muscle fibers at a time, which leads to strength gains. So you most certainly can get significantly stronger on a deficit, without growing larger muscles, because you're teaching your brain how to lift heavier things.

britzzie

If by building you mean something along the lines of lean bulking (putting on muscle and not too much fat) for that you need to eat at roughly 15 - 20% extra calories (from maintenance) if you want to do just normal bulking you'd probably be looking at eating close to an extra 1000 - 1500 calories but weight gain (fat) will be high than lean bulking, but as the idea suggests you won't put on as much muscle.

Eating at a deficit will always cause some muscle loss however research has shown that if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle while in a deficit.

tl;dr

Eating at a deficit will always cause some sort of muscle loss, if you lift heavy you will lose less muscle
Eating in excess will always cause some sort of fat gain, if you lift heavy you will put on some muscle and some fat

If you want to get stronger you will need to eat in surplus to see proper strength gains, and you will need to change your program to something along the lines of a 5 x 5 or 3 x 5 as that is generally said to encourage strength gains where as 8 - 12 reps generally encourages hypertrophy (muscle size growth, so basically you can have big muscles without maximum lifting ability)

I don't want to gain weight. (I know this can be part of it, but in the end I need to be lighter.) Also, I can't get stronger while eating at a deficit? So getting stronger (being able to lift more) = building? You can't increase strength without building, therefore, you can't get stronger without eating at a surplus? Is that right?

Not being snarky. But I'm a logical person trying to understand.

I'm going to try to get this thread back on track before it completely devolves into the rather tiresome "You can't gain muscle mass on a deficit." "Nuh-uh! Yes you can" thread.

Strength is not completely related to muscle size. Part of strength is training your brain and your neural pathways to lift heavier things. When your brain sends a signal to a muscle to contract, your brain only signals enough of your muscle fibers to contract to lift the thing you are trying to lift. This is why when you go to lift a bucket that you think is full, but is actually empty you end up throwing the bucket through the roof, or vice versa you don't even budge the bucket, but once you realize it's actually full you can lift it with ease.

Strength training will train your neural pathways to utilize more of your existing muscle fibers at a time, which leads to strength gains. So you most certainly can get significantly stronger on a deficit, without growing larger muscles, because you're teaching your brain how to lift heavier things.

Thanks for clearing this up. It didn't make sense... Because I've been eating at a deficit but that I can lift heavier things than I could before. You make sense! :bigsmile:

Sarauk2sf

Thanks, all! Here's my plan:

I will increase cals to TDEE-20%. I will do cardio 3x/week and heavy lifting 3x/week on separate days. Anything else I should be doing.

And no offense taken. I'm overweight now, but I'm working on it : )

Solid plan.

Irrespective of whether you gain, lose or maintain LBM, you will be doing everything you can to maintain it, gain strength and improve bone density - all of which are good things.

I would just add, make sure your are as accurate as possible with logging your food. Weigh as much as possible and measure what you cannot. It can make a big difference.

britzzie

Thanks, all! Here's my plan:

I will increase cals to TDEE-20%. I will do cardio 3x/week and heavy lifting 3x/week on separate days. Anything else I should be doing.

And no offense taken. I'm overweight now, but I'm working on it : )

Solid plan.

Irrespective of whether you gain, lose or maintain LBM, you will be doing everything you can to maintain it, gain strength and improve bone density - all of which are good things.

I would just add, make sure your are as accurate as possible with logging your food. Weigh as much as possible and measure what you cannot. It can make a big difference.

Thank you!! I already weigh and measure pretty obsessively. Always a good reminder though. No peanut butter out of the jar!!

Damn typos : )

KatLifter

Thank you!! I already weigh and measure pretty obsessively. Always a good reminder though. No peanut butter out of the jar!!

Damn typos : )

Peanut butter out of the jar is fine, it's pretty much the only way I eat it! I just use a 1/2 Tbs. measuring spoon, then I know how much I ate.

britzzie

Thank you!! I already weigh and measure pretty obsessively. Always a good reminder though. No peanut butter out of the jar!!

Damn typos : )

Peanut butter out of the jar is fine, it's pretty much the only way I eat it! I just use a 1/2 Tbs. measuring spoon, then I know how much I ate.

Point taken!! Ok allow me to revise!!

No copious amounts of unmeasured and unlogged peanut butter out of the jar!! :blushing:

KarenJanine

As you feel you have a good muscle base already, I would recommend eating a 15 to 20% deficit to lose fat while following a full body lifting routine such as SL 5x5 three times per week.

Once you get nearer to your goal you can reassess your muscle levels and if you feel you would like more then you can go into bulk/cut cycles until you've reached your desired muscle:fat ratio.

Saucy_lil_Minx

bump

larsensue

I am watching the replies as well....

reach4thestar

Bump....really interesting topic...thanks OP...

Nina1007

Bump to read later

Huzke

Thanks, all! Here's my plan:

I will increase cals to TDEE-20%. I will do cardio 3x/week and heavy lifting 3x/week on separate days. Anything else I should be doing.

And no offense taken. I'm overweight now, but I'm working on it : )

Pretty awesome attitude.

Nina1007

I have a question.....I do cardio for 30 min on tues, thurs, & saturday. And i do 25 min of lifting and 20 min of cardio on mon, wed, and Friday! When calculating my TDEE would I do light activity or moderate?