Training for fat loss vs. training for muscle/strength gain
Scamd83
Posts: 808 Member
Is there a difference? I mean is there a specific way you should train whilst cutting to avoid overdoing it and only work your muscles enough so that you maintain them but don't deplete them from doing too much and not eating enough to sustain that? Or am over complicating things here? Everytime I come across an apparently fat loss specific plan it's for three days a week. I'm currently cutting calories and train four days a week on a plan that seems to be aimed at intermediates aiming for strength and muscle gains. I've been lifting since the beginning of 2012 and I think I fall into the beginner category still because I cannot lift a certain amount x my own body weight, etc. Also is it possible to train whilst on low carbs for a limited period of time without wasting away muscle?
Edit: By train I mean lift weights.
Edit: By train I mean lift weights.
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I would Google Protein Sparing Modified Fast (PSMF) and Rapid Fat Loss Diet by Lyle McDonald (he also has a site). There's a PSMF group on Reddit and it's discussed in weight training fora.-1
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I would Google Protein Sparing Modified Fast (PSMF) and Rapid Fat Loss Diet by Lyle McDonald (he also has a site). There's a PSMF group on Reddit and it's discussed in weight training fora.
I've googled those and can't see anything about optimal training, just stuff about rapid fat loss for obese people. I am not obese. I am just seeking the ideal level of training to sustain strength and lean mass whilst shedding perhaps another stone.0 -
It sounds like "train" means "lift weights" to you so I'm basing my answer on that. You can use the same lifting programs while losing weight as you do while maintaining or adding weight. You may, at some point, start to find that you cannot add weight to the bar as quickly, or sometimes not at all, so you may end up lowering the overall volume a bit, but the core program can be the same. If you find the need to lower volume, I would suggest lowering (or cutting out) isolation exercises before compound exercises.0
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When I was lifting and losing I was doing high rep-lower weight with extensive cardio on my off days. Now that I'm trying to increase strength I'm lifting super heavy-lower reps and not as much cardio. And I've upped my calories significantly. Not sure if that's the proper way to do it, but that's the approach I've been taking and so far so good.0
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During my cut I lifting 3 times per week push pull legs/shoulders. I lifted heavy typically sets of 5 with 5 reps. And i didn't lose much muscle, although some of that might have come from the fact I was doing a much more well rounded lift routine then I was before my cut.0
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@jemhh Oops, thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I mean weights, corrected that now.
@mz_getskinny Did it work for you? By that I mean did you manage to avoid any significant loss in strength?0 -
Generally speaking, but biggest difference between training on a cut and training an a bulk is going to be volume. Most good, established programs can be left largely in tact regardless of intake with the only real change being a reduction in overall volume.
Generic example: rather than doing 3-5 sets of 8-12 reps, you might cut back to 3-5 sets of 3-6 reps, but the actual lifts you do and muscles you work remain the same.0 -
High reps low weight is typically used for muscle endurance when you train for muscle endurance your muscles tend to get leaner. Sets of 5 reps is typically used for strength building and sets of 10 typically used for size.
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tillerstouch wrote: »High reps low weight is typically used for muscle endurance when you train for muscle endurance your muscles tend to get leaner. Sets of 5 reps is typically used for strength building and sets of 10 typically used for size.
No. Muscle is lean. Period. There is no fat muscle.0 -
Generally speaking, but biggest difference between training on a cut and training an a bulk is going to be volume. Most good, established programs can be left largely in tact regardless of intake with the only real change being a reduction in overall volume.
Generic example: rather than doing 3-5 sets of 8-12 reps, you might cut back to 3-5 sets of 3-6 reps, but the actual lifts you do and muscles you work remain the same.
This. Keep the weights up, lower the volume0 -
@jacksonpt @rybo So would working each set of muscles once a week for those sorts of sets and reps be sufficient volume whilst cutting or could you do it twice per week?0
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mz_getskinny wrote: »When I was lifting and losing I was doing high rep-lower weight with extensive cardio on my off days. Now that I'm trying to increase strength I'm lifting super heavy-lower reps and not as much cardio. And I've upped my calories significantly. Not sure if that's the proper way to do it, but that's the approach I've been taking and so far so good.
while cutting ensure you get enough protein, lift heavy, and ensure your deficit isn't too large to retain as much muscle as possible. It is best to lift heavy while cutting as it is more muscle sparing that higher rep, and you can increase strength while cutting this way.0 -
I'm not a fan of the typical bodybuilding split that only hits each muscle group once a week. Unless you are an actual bodybuilder. I prefer a 2-3 days a week full body, utilizing compound movements@jacksonpt @rybo So would working each set of muscles once a week for those sorts of sets and reps be sufficient volume whilst cutting or could you do it twice per week?
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tillerstouch wrote: »High reps low weight is typically used for muscle endurance when you train for muscle endurance your muscles tend to get leaner. Sets of 5 reps is typically used for strength building and sets of 10 typically used for size.
No. Muscle is lean. Period. There is no fat muscle.
The point was simply that high reps is not used for building strength or muscle size. High reps is used for muscle endurance which typically does not see a big increase in muscle size or increased strength and could result in muscles looking smaller.
Sure your muscle is not literally lean but when you have low body fat and muscles that have been trained for endurance you typically look "lean" vs someone who has trained their muscles for size or strength you migjt say looks "bulked". For example look at kali muscle very little body fat but I don't think anyone is calling him lean....
If OP wants to retain muscle size and or strength high reps low weight isn't the answer for them. If their goal is to keep muscle endurance up then they should continue with high reps.
My point was and still is valid why you're trying to discredit me or feel the need to correct me I'm not sure... if your ego needs it that bad then yes you're right muscle cannot be literally lean.0 -
I'm not a fan of the typical bodybuilding split that only hits each muscle group once a week. Unless you are an actual bodybuilder. I prefer a 2-3 days a week full body, utilizing compound movements@jacksonpt @rybo So would working each set of muscles once a week for those sorts of sets and reps be sufficient volume whilst cutting or could you do it twice per week?
speaking very generally, I agree.
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Your calorie deficit will determine fat loss. You can gain strength on a deficit even without adding muscle by following a good lifting program and getting enough protein to preserve muscle. A three day a week full body program is great for that. When you're done with cutting you can then proceed to increase calories and volume and continue with strength training or change to another program that adds in some hypertrophy work. This just depends on your goals.
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Small deficit,(100-200cals per day) adequate protein, lift 3 x all body per week.
Eat back all exercise calories.
Watch overdoing it on cardio, to be safe, keep it low intensity, if you're training for an aerobic event, pre fuel and fuel well during exercise, and know your burn rates.
Good luck!
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From my experience and then watching the studies, the best method for most is to reduce volume, and also reduce calories over maintenance by about the same percentage as you reduce lifting volume. That might be harder to figure out if you've been slowly building (as far as numbers) and your lifting routine.
You can also leave the lifting and diet alone, and simply add some cardio to make the deficit larger. I had real good success using that method back when I was lifting more, as my primary concern was building my cardio base up to match the slight weight gain. I had let my cardio suffer, and the job I had at the time wasn't too favorable on lacking cardio endurance.
As for cardio, if you do it then eat the calories back, and fuel for the cardio you do along with alternate away from lifting days or do it after lifting. Too much cardio at the wrong times will make your lifting suffer quicker if you are in calorie deficit.
As for protein, IMO just leave the macro alone. I personally think many overdo it on the protein macro, so unless you just like the extra, no reason to go crazy IMO.
Just don't slack too much on the lifting. I've seen people have success with just reducing weight, and with just reducing volume, and both seemed to do well on muscle retention. But if you slack off too much on a deficit, the muscle losses start taking place.... exactly where in the deficit vs length vs lifting would be the million dollar question. Even rapid weight loss antics spare muscle better if you keep the strength training ramped up near the place you are at before the losses.0 -
Pretty much this. Just need to maintain a good protein profile too. I did this many times for competitions.Generally speaking, but biggest difference between training on a cut and training an a bulk is going to be volume. Most good, established programs can be left largely in tact regardless of intake with the only real change being a reduction in overall volume.
Generic example: rather than doing 3-5 sets of 8-12 reps, you might cut back to 3-5 sets of 3-6 reps, but the actual lifts you do and muscles you work remain the same.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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tillerstouch wrote: »tillerstouch wrote: »High reps low weight is typically used for muscle endurance when you train for muscle endurance your muscles tend to get leaner. Sets of 5 reps is typically used for strength building and sets of 10 typically used for size.
No. Muscle is lean. Period. There is no fat muscle.
The point was simply that high reps is not used for building strength or muscle size. High reps is used for muscle endurance which typically does not see a big increase in muscle size or increased strength and could result in muscles looking smaller.
Sure your muscle is not literally lean but when you have low body fat and muscles that have been trained for endurance you typically look "lean" vs someone who has trained their muscles for size or strength you migjt say looks "bulked". For example look at kali muscle very little body fat but I don't think anyone is calling him lean....
If OP wants to retain muscle size and or strength high reps low weight isn't the answer for them. If their goal is to keep muscle endurance up then they should continue with high reps.
My point was and still is valid why you're trying to discredit me or feel the need to correct me I'm not sure... if your ego needs it that bad then yes you're right muscle cannot be literally lean.
Correcting you has nothing to do with my ego. It has to do with you being wrong. People read the threads here in the hope of getting correct information and that's not what you offered. Nice try at a personal jibe though.
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When I competed, it was attention to detail. My arms didn't need as much as my legs did, so I trained legs twice a week and arms once, with everything else alternating 1 or 2 times a week.@jacksonpt @rybo So would working each set of muscles once a week for those sorts of sets and reps be sufficient volume whilst cutting or could you do it twice per week?
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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@rybo @jacksonpt Do you do (or have done) one of those 5x5/5x3/5,3,1 programmes?
@ninerbuff @robertw486 I've seen all sorts of recommendations on what constitutes adequate protein levels. For me it seems to range from 120-150g. Is 2.2g per kg adequate do you think?0 -
@rybo @jacksonpt Do you do (or have done) one of those 5x5/5x3/5,3,1 programmes?
@ninerbuff @robertw486 I've seen all sorts of recommendations on what constitutes adequate protein levels. For me it seems to range from 120-150g. Is 2.2g per kg adequate do you think?
Not ninerbuff or robertw486 but you might find this article interesting. It gives background on various protein studies and the final takeaway is this:Take Home Messages
• There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle once you’re past the novice level as a natural trainee. This already includes a mark-up, since most research finds no more benefits after 0.64 g/lb.
• Optimal protein intake decreases with training age, because your body becomes more efficient at preventing protein breakdown resulting from training and less protein is needed for the increasingly smaller amount of muscle that is built after each training session.0 -
During cut phase for me, 1g per pound of bodyweight seemed fine for me. I likely ate more than that though since I was also carb depleting.@rybo @jacksonpt Do you do (or have done) one of those 5x5/5x3/5,3,1 programmes?
@ninerbuff @robertw486 I've seen all sorts of recommendations on what constitutes adequate protein levels. For me it seems to range from 120-150g. Is 2.2g per kg adequate do you think?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I lift the same.
The only difference is mostly mental. If you think you'll get weaker/slide backwards - congratulations you're probably right.
Get the non-training stuff right: sleep, hydration, soft-tissue stuff. Don't get crazy with the calorie deficit. Get enough protein. And you're golden.0 -
@jemhh Thank you, happy for anyone to reply and really appreciative. That comes to about 120g of protein for me, which sounds about right I think. Although with my less than impressive strength for the years I've been lifting (about four years now) I think I'm still classed as a beginner so wondering if that means I need more at this stage?
@ninerbuff Interested in your carb depletion comment. I remember trying the ultra low carb phase for carb backloading in 2013 for 10 days. I felt awful at the end of it and my legs pretty much took the week off after a few days. But I dropped 9 lbs and felt ridiculously lean and after consuming a bit too much recently I wouldn't mind trying to quickly shed some water weight and fat. Can you recommend anything along these lines?0 -
Not ninerbuff or robertw486 but you might find this article interesting. It gives background on various protein studies and the final takeaway is this:Take Home Messages
• There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle once you’re past the novice level as a natural trainee. This already includes a mark-up, since most research finds no more benefits after 0.64 g/lb.
• Optimal protein intake decreases with training age, because your body becomes more efficient at preventing protein breakdown resulting from training and less protein is needed for the increasingly smaller amount of muscle that is built after each training session.
It's worth noting that Eric Helms, Lyle McDonald and Alan Aragon all disagree pretty strongly with Menno's findings in that article.0 -
Not ninerbuff or robertw486 but you might find this article interesting. It gives background on various protein studies and the final takeaway is this:Take Home Messages
• There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle once you’re past the novice level as a natural trainee. This already includes a mark-up, since most research finds no more benefits after 0.64 g/lb.
• Optimal protein intake decreases with training age, because your body becomes more efficient at preventing protein breakdown resulting from training and less protein is needed for the increasingly smaller amount of muscle that is built after each training session.
It's worth noting that Eric Helms, Lyle McDonald and Alan Aragon all disagree pretty strongly with Menno's findings in that article.
@AnvilHead, isn't there an interview with Menno and Helms that discusses this? I can't get to it right now but I feel like I've seen it.0
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