Eat more...lose more????
FiNnY22
Posts: 126 Member
So here's the thing, let me give you a brief history of me.
I was always a fit young man, played American Football (im British) for many years and was always lean. Then i stopped playing and gradually over the years became a fatter version of myself and from then on ive always struggled with fat.
In the past 5 years ive had success with high intensity cardio programs such as Insanity, Insanity Max 30, T25 and SPIN classes. I n short i became a smaller version of myself losing about 40lbs.
During this time i also cannibalised lean muscle and still wasn't lean.
So... fast forward to this year, the weight (fat) was slowing creeping back on and I wanted to look very different, not just lighter. I wanted to retain lean muscle and lose fat.
I reverted to what I knew, Insanity etc and 1400 kcals a day. Deficit obtained and right now I'm down 20lbs again. Great.
I started with a new PT very recently, an ex competition body builder and he ripped up my routine given where I wanted to be, for the past 4 weeks we have been lifting heavy on 3 separate days, Legs, Chest/Shoulders & Back days. I rest 3 days and have one day of cardio where I run 5K with my wife and 2 boys.
Last week I got on the scales (Tanita Body Comp scales) and the weight moved down.....and to my horror my lean muscle dropped and my body fat stayed the same.
I had a long chat with my PT last night, he examined my food diary and told me although my macro splits were ok with a good focus on healthy fats and protein, my kcal intake and therefore protein intake was way too low. In short he wants me to add at least another 600kcal a day to my intake and most of that coming from protein with some carbs. strict order..."stop counting calories, you are in build mode now"
This is a real leap of faith for me, im going to trust him and go for it. What i cant get my head around is eating more will help me lose fat still. Its a mental thing!
Can anybody else share a similar experience or give me any other advice who has been in a similar position?
I was always a fit young man, played American Football (im British) for many years and was always lean. Then i stopped playing and gradually over the years became a fatter version of myself and from then on ive always struggled with fat.
In the past 5 years ive had success with high intensity cardio programs such as Insanity, Insanity Max 30, T25 and SPIN classes. I n short i became a smaller version of myself losing about 40lbs.
During this time i also cannibalised lean muscle and still wasn't lean.
So... fast forward to this year, the weight (fat) was slowing creeping back on and I wanted to look very different, not just lighter. I wanted to retain lean muscle and lose fat.
I reverted to what I knew, Insanity etc and 1400 kcals a day. Deficit obtained and right now I'm down 20lbs again. Great.
I started with a new PT very recently, an ex competition body builder and he ripped up my routine given where I wanted to be, for the past 4 weeks we have been lifting heavy on 3 separate days, Legs, Chest/Shoulders & Back days. I rest 3 days and have one day of cardio where I run 5K with my wife and 2 boys.
Last week I got on the scales (Tanita Body Comp scales) and the weight moved down.....and to my horror my lean muscle dropped and my body fat stayed the same.
I had a long chat with my PT last night, he examined my food diary and told me although my macro splits were ok with a good focus on healthy fats and protein, my kcal intake and therefore protein intake was way too low. In short he wants me to add at least another 600kcal a day to my intake and most of that coming from protein with some carbs. strict order..."stop counting calories, you are in build mode now"
This is a real leap of faith for me, im going to trust him and go for it. What i cant get my head around is eating more will help me lose fat still. Its a mental thing!
Can anybody else share a similar experience or give me any other advice who has been in a similar position?
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Replies
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Your trainer wants you to bulk. If your goal is to cut, you need to explain this to your trainer or find a new trainer.0
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Thanks for the reply, my goal is to change my body composition and shape or to have more lean muscle and lower body fat. I'm really happy with my trainer and the weight regime.0
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Im Dutch, so not an American muscle building machine with all that knowledge, that said, I am the daughter of a judoteacher and what I know is, if you want to build muscle and are losing lots of calories by sports, you better eat a whole lot. Furthermore, if your body doesnt get enough food, it will get in starvationmodus, you will not lose at all. If you want to read lots of interesting blogs, articles and tips on food, I feel Pinterest is great to add loads of information gathering in a very short time! Good luck!0
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Your tracking is on target and so is your protein. Your trainer is right, up your cals. You can still track, but you should be tracking to meet those extra 600 cals! Good luck. At 1400, being very active, yes, you likely lost some lean muscle. Time to reverse that.
(PS - given that you are already at a good protein level - you can probably add those extra cals as you like.)
It is even likely that once you reach those extra 600 you'll need to add again. At 2000 you are probably not even bulking but get there first, stick to it for 4-6 weeks and work with your trainer for the next decisions.
He's giving you correct advice on this.
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@Odilerubia Because your profile pic is so nice (did you paint it?), I will forgive the comment about statvation mode/starvationmodus
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Odilerubia wrote: »Im Dutch, so not an American muscle building machine with all that knowledge, that said, I am the daughter of a judoteacher and what I know is, if you want to build muscle and are losing lots of calories by sports, you better eat a whole lot. Furthermore, if your body doesnt get enough food, it will get in starvationmodus, you will not lose at all. If you want to read lots of interesting blogs, articles and tips on food, I feel Pinterest is great to add loads of information gathering in a very short time! Good luck!
No to ^^^^^^^^^
Your trainer is telling you that in order to get the body you seek, he wants you to bulk at a surplus (but it sound like he does not want you an aggressive surplus to where you gain much fat all) and lift on the schedule he has set and in turn you will build lean mass and cut fat. What it is essentially you will put on some weight/fat gains but minimal following his program, and most likely he will have you cut the fat gains after the bulk is over. He wants you to get over the mindset of eating more as in order to get gains in lean mass and build your muscles, you have bulk first and then cut.
Follow your trainer, he knows what he is doing. So you do not need to eat a deficit right now. That will come in the cut after you bulked for what ever scheduled time he has you doing this strategy.
Up the protein, you will need it in the bulk. The carbs are also extremely necessary as well in your bulk.0 -
Ditch the Tanita scale and any bio-impedence measurement as something that will give you an iota of useful information.
To date I have found ZERO correlation between the body composition changes implied by scale bio-impedance measurements and body composition changes as measured by DXA.
Yes, in a generic way, as my weight has gone down the body fat % as seen by the scale has gone down too. But, when you break down what these drops imply in terms of lean mass and fat lost and try to correlate to DXA whole body scan results, to legs only results, or to legs and torso results... you get nothing. for anything... or you need higher math skills than mine to find the faint relationship that might exist!
You lost weight at a large cut, losing both lean mass and fat. Probably more lean mass than you wanted to. At this point it sounds as if your trainer is trying to build up your lean mass, even if that results in a small gain in fat mass.
In order to do this you will probably be eating at maintenance... maybe a tad above.
If you absolutely are not willing to tolerate the possibility of gaining a little bit of fat in order to maximize muscle gains, then you would eat at maintenance or just below. This would reduce your fat % over time, but it would not maximize your muscle gains the same way a slight caloric surplus will.0 -
Ditch the Tanita scale and any bio-impedence measurement as something that will give you an iota of useful information.
To date I have found ZERO correlation between the body composition changes implied by scale bio-impedance measurements and body composition changes as measured by DXA.
Yes, in a generic way, as my weight has gone down the body fat % as seen by the scale has gone down too. But, when you break down what these drops imply in terms of lean mass and fat lost and try to correlate to DXA whole body scan results, to legs only results, or to legs and torso results... you get nothing. for anything... or you need higher math skills than mine to find the faint relationship that might exist!
You lost weight at a large cut, losing both lean mass and fat. Probably more lean mass than you wanted to. At this point it sounds as if your trainer is trying to build up your lean mass, even if that results in a small gain in fat mass.
In order to do this you will probably be eating at maintenance... maybe a tad above.
If you absolutely are not willing to tolerate the possibility of gaining a little bit of fat in order to maximize muscle gains, then you would eat at maintenance or just below. This would reduce your fat % over time, but it would not maximize your muscle gains the same way a slight caloric surplus will.
he is right. The section in bold emphasizes muscle growth comes with a surplus (does not have to be a huge one) and if you eat at the deficit while on this program, well... the gainz and fat loss simultaneously will be minimal and very slow and you may end up frustrated by this process (look up recomping). Recomping is not the goal you PT has set you up for.
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My PT told me the same exact thing and that's what I'm doing to get rid of the fat and build muscle. Although the scale hasn't changed, I have lost inches. That's what is really important. Throw your scale out. I won't weigh myself ever again (unless they force me to at the doctor's). The scale does lie.0
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floridagirl7264 wrote: »My PT told me the same exact thing and that's what I'm doing to get rid of the fat and build muscle. Although the scale hasn't changed, I have lost inches. That's what is really important. Throw your scale out. I won't weigh myself ever again (unless they force me to at the doctor's). The scale does lie.
Nothing wrong with using a scale, if you aren't emotionally attached to the readings. While the impedance scales have a large margin of error and don't correlate well with DEXA readings they remain a relatively reliable indicator of direction. It may be useful data to determine if rate of loss is too high.
In the OPs case - the fact that he got to goal and identified a loss of lbm (and allows him to accept the PT recommendations) is a good thing.
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How tall are you? Any reasonably-sized man shouldn't be consuming 1400 calories per day.
I have made this mistake in the past myself and I think your trainer is 100% right.
Even 2000 calories is low for an active man. You could probably increase to 2500 calories gradually over a few weeks and still not gain an ounce of fat. Your body will look and feel much better though.
Keep protein up too. 150g per day minimum.
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Odilerubia wrote: »Im Dutch, so not an American muscle building machine with all that knowledge, that said, I am the daughter of a judoteacher and what I know is, if you want to build muscle and are losing lots of calories by sports, you better eat a whole lot. Furthermore, if your body doesnt get enough food, it will get in starvationmodus, you will not lose at all. If you want to read lots of interesting blogs, articles and tips on food, I feel Pinterest is great to add loads of information gathering in a very short time! Good luck!
This us terrible advice. Starvation mode is a myth.0 -
^This. I'm a lot smaller and older than you, and can not survive, let alone build muscle, on 1400 calories a day. Keep at it.How tall are you? Any reasonably-sized man shouldn't be consuming 1400 calories per day.
I have made this mistake in the past myself and I think your trainer is 100% right.
Even 2000 calories is low for an active man. You could probably increase to 2500 calories gradually over a few weeks and still not gain an ounce of fat. Your body will look and feel much better though.
Keep protein up too. 150g per day minimum.
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Odilerubia wrote: »Im Dutch, so not an American muscle building machine with all that knowledge, that said, I am the daughter of a judoteacher and what I know is, if you want to build muscle and are losing lots of calories by sports, you better eat a whole lot. Furthermore, if your body doesnt get enough food, it will get in starvationmodus, you will not lose at all. If you want to read lots of interesting blogs, articles and tips on food, I feel Pinterest is great to add loads of information gathering in a very short time! Good luck!
No to ^^^^^^^^^
Your trainer is telling you that in order to get the body you seek, he wants you to bulk at a surplus (but it sound like he does not want you an aggressive surplus to where you gain much fat all) and lift on the schedule he has set and in turn you will build lean mass and cut fat. What it is essentially you will put on some weight/fat gains but minimal following his program, and most likely he will have you cut the fat gains after the bulk is over. He wants you to get over the mindset of eating more as in order to get gains in lean mass and build your muscles, you have bulk first and then cut.
Follow your trainer, he knows what he is doing. So you do not need to eat a deficit right now. That will come in the cut after you bulked for what ever scheduled time he has you doing this strategy.
Up the protein, you will need it in the bulk. The carbs are also extremely necessary as well in your bulk.
If he is at 1400 calories, I don't think adding 600 will put him at a surplus.0 -
Thanks guys some brilliant advice on here, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer and @votex88 im 95 Kilos and 5ft 10.
Then bulking makes no sense to me, if this is your trainer's plan. If your logging is accurate, 1400 calories does sound too low for someone your size, but from not starving to going into "building" mode when technically obese?0 -
Those scales are not accurate at all! Seriously I stopped going to the gym's body fat readings after I was told that the 3 pounds I had lost in 3 months were just muscle, even though I had lost inches all over... right then...
Although yeah, if you ate 1400 and worked out a lot, you probably did burn some muscle, because it's too low.0 -
There are lots of valid reasons that the PT may want to move to a bulk phase but still with a long term goal of fat loss.
Not an exhaustive list but:- To give the trainee a break from calorific restriction
- To build muscle in order to increase metabolic burn and so make later fat loss feel easier (because cutting at higher calories)
- To improve body appearance
- To increase strength and therefore (becuse he is lifting more) increase the calorific burn of future work outs
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Thanks for the reply, my goal is to change my body composition and shape or to have more lean muscle and lower body fat. I'm really happy with my trainer and the weight regime.
Then your trainer is right. Your plan was a cut, when what you need right now is a bulk phase. Eat what he says, do the work, and I bet you'll be pleased.0 -
Actually, 1400 Cal for 95Kg 5ft 10 male, i.e. 209.4lbs, i.e. BMI ~30 who does intense exercise at the gym is insane.
OP, your TDEE is north of 3000 Cal. Probably north of 3500 Cal.
So all the trainer is doing by putting you up to 2000 is moving you to a more conservative deficit that doesn't wildly exceed 25% of TDEE while technically obese (cause you don't look obese to me... but that's another story)
In reality, to best preserve lean mass you should be limiting your deficits to 20% of TDEE. This would allow you to continue to lose weight and fat quite fast.
Now: a couple of arguments could be made that the trainer should double check that your food logging is goog and that your 1400 is not closer to 2000.... but EVEN IF IT WERE.... the correct cut for you is at over 2500 Cal as opposed to around 2000... at least if you want to have enough energy to get something out of the workouts you are paying for, and if you spend close to an average of an hour a day working out.
TL/DR and taking into account previous speculations by everyone (myself included):
All your trainer is doing is making sure you are not creating a deficit that is so large that you will lose lean mass un-necessarily, while quite possibly hurting your performance throughout the day and at the gym.
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I have no opinion on the advice you're being given by your trainer since it's impossible to give you that without looking at the same facts he looked at (your exact diet, etc.).
However, your goal should not be to lose weight, per se, but rather to get leaner. It is possible to get leaner by gaining weight if most of the weight you gain is muscle. It is also possible to get leaner by maintaining weight if you are losing fat but that weight loss is being replaced by muscle (however, it's very hard to both lose fat and gain muscle at the same time for someone as experienced as you).
Stop looking at the scale and focus on your bodyfat % instead.0 -
Thanks guys some brilliant advice on here, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer and @votex88 im 95 Kilos and 5ft 10.
Wow. Okay. You are a big guy. 5'10" and 95kgs is solid.
1400 cals is waaaaaaaay too low. You should almost certainly be able to jump to 1800 and then 2000 and then 2200 with not one ounce of fat. Trust me on this.
Personally, if I were you, I would gradually (over a few weeks) increase cals up to 3000 per day (making a bet with you now that, as long as you get 150-200g protein per day and are weight training effectively and consistently you will look much better - leaner and more muscular - at those calories).
Then, stay at 3000 for a few weeks and, after that, experiment with gradually reducing to about 2200 per day for brief periods to see how your body reacts. At your height and size even 2200 is a miniscule calorie intake.
Good luck.0 -
Awesome thank you all guys. This is great, glad I posted.0
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Solid. Ha that made me smile. I used to play Strong Safety and then Linebacker when I played football, so I guess solid is a good description0 -
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