Squats-flat or raised heels?
Merkavar
Posts: 3,082 Member
i don't normally wonder over to this side of mfp, hey how's it going? *smiles awkwardly*
So what are the oppinions on doing squats in regards to raised or flat heels.
Seems raised heals shifts the focus to the knees and allows for more depth in the squats.
While flat feet shift the focus to the bum area and at least for me prevents going lower than parallel.
Which sort of squat do you recommend if you want to improve running and kicking and jumping?
If I can barely get to parralel with flat feet should I work on ankle flexibility? Any siggestions?
So what are the oppinions on doing squats in regards to raised or flat heels.
Seems raised heals shifts the focus to the knees and allows for more depth in the squats.
While flat feet shift the focus to the bum area and at least for me prevents going lower than parallel.
Which sort of squat do you recommend if you want to improve running and kicking and jumping?
If I can barely get to parralel with flat feet should I work on ankle flexibility? Any siggestions?
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Replies
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Sounds like you need to work on flexibility. Doing squats w raised heels is a bad idea, as a big component of squat technique is keeping your weight in your heels. Otherwise you're putting too much strain on your knees.
There's not much point in doing an exercise with improper form, as it won't work the muscles you want to work & it could eventually lead to serious injury.0 -
I have the natural flexibility of a big rig tire, and while I still work on that I wear Adidas Adipowers. Ignore the B.S. about raised heels causing knee problems. The shoes are designed that way for a reason. It works for me and plenty of others. If it works for you, go with it.
Edit: typo0 -
Flat, ideally don't use running shoes. Use a flat shoe0
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No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.0
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Using plates under your heels is helpful if you lack ankle flexibility and have a tendency to fall forward or go on your toes when squatting. You should work on your flexibility though so you don't have to use them forever.0
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That puts more emphasis on the quads. If it allows you to move more naturally then go with it. As your quads increase in strength though make sure you are balancing it with hamstrings work such as Romanian deads. If you don't naturally go below parallel though don't make too much of it. Hit parallel and call it a day. Bret Contreras has some good discussions of this and if I remember right he tends to squat just slightly above parallel. If you're not a power lifter and are only going for strength increases then it's not an issue.0 -
singingflutelady wrote: »Using plates under your heels is helpful if you lack ankle flexibility and have a tendency to fall forward or go on your toes when squatting. You should work on your flexibility though so you don't have to use them forever.
This.
Yoga!0 -
No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.
any recommendations on ankle flexibility?
Maybe standing on a stair and lower and raise yourself?0 -
No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.
You have no idea what those of us who are naturally inflexible deal with. My kids are the same way. I took martial arts for years, even as a juvenile, was put on stretching machines for quite some time, and my flexibility never substantially improved. I heard this crap from yoga enthusiasts regularly over the years. Even running I never suffered any injuries from it though. People work with what they have and if you can improve flexibility do it, but don't think that it's that big of a deal. And, do not stretch before lifting.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.
You have no idea what those of us who are naturally inflexible deal with. My kids are the same way. I took martial arts for years, even as a juvenile, was put on stretching machines for quite some time, and my flexibility never substantially improved. I heard this crap from yoga enthusiasts regularly over the years. Even running I never suffered any injuries from it though. People work with what they have and if you can improve flexibility do it, but don't think that it's that big of a deal. And, do not stretch before lifting.
I agree as I am not flexible and lack mobility in my t spine and shoulders but in lifting if you lack mobility your form suffers and you can get injured. I don't recommend doing crazy things but doing some mobility exercises helps a lot.0 -
Here are some decent articles on squat depth and technique:
https://bretcontreras.com/finding-your-ideal-squat-depth/
https://www.t-nation.com/training/squat-depth-the-final-answer
https://www.t-nation.com/training/real-science-of-squat-depth0 -
Yep - terrible ankle flex in both directions. Took months just to dorsiflex enough to not go backwards when kicking in the pool. That said I'm trying not to use the weights under the ankles very often either.
Oddly enough this same lack of flexibility in the ankles tends to make for better running.
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I use lifting shoes with raised heels for front and regular squats and go barefoot for goblet and zecher squats.0
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Improve running, jumping and kicking - Start with bodyweight and box jumps, lunges.
Ankle flexibility - get a theraband and do rotations with ankle. Calf raise with no shoes0 -
I squat bare foot pushing through my midfoot.
I've squatted on awith heels on a piece of wood 2"x4" over 30 years ago.
My mobility is an issue because of swollen joints 24/7 and my hip dislocates at times, but yoga has helped me a lot in a short time.0 -
i squat flat, in chucks.0
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sunnybeaches105 wrote: »
That puts more emphasis on the quads. If it allows you to move more naturally then go with it. As your quads increase in strength though make sure you are balancing it with hamstrings work such as Romanian deads. If you don't naturally go below parallel though don't make too much of it. Hit parallel and call it a day. Bret Contreras has some good discussions of this and if I remember right he tends to squat just slightly above parallel. If you're not a power lifter and are only going for strength increases then it's not an issue.
Really? It's not essential to go below parallel to see benefits? I am new to lifting and am interested in simply increasing strength, reducing my body fat percentage some, and building a bit more muscle. Everything I've read so far about squats says you MUST go below parallel or it's not a "real" squat, doesn't work the right muscles, doesn't give you the benefits, etc. But I have trouble going below parallel. Can I get benefits feom squats by stopping at parallel?0 -
No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.
This in incorrect. Flexibility is natural. We lose it as we go about life (sitting for 8-12 hours a day, etc). Virtually any normal child can do what is pictured below.
And it doesn't necessarily go away as we age, goes away due to lifestyle:
We have to work to get it back. This article provides a nice discussion:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/third-world-squat
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Packerjohn wrote: »No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.
This in incorrect. Flexibility is natural. We lose it as we go about life (sitting for 8-12 hours a day, etc). Virtually any normal child can do what is pictured below.
And it doesn't necessarily go away as we age, goes away due to lifestyle:
We have to work to get it back. This article provides a nice discussion:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/third-world-squat
One of the things that is so frustrating about all of this is the the conflicting information. In contrast to that article on the same website, is this one (I also posted it above) that is much more recent.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/real-science-of-squat-depth
Apologies for the block 'o text, but here's a relevant quote:
"Third World Squat vs. Strength-Training Squat
Many who assert the ideology of using a baby's squat to represent the ideal squat pattern are quick to point to the "third world squat" often performed in other countries, particularly throughout Asia. In a third world squat, the individual simply relaxes into the deepest squat position where the butt is nearly touching the floor. Because this is almost identical to what babies do, it's assumed that society and technology are responsible for ruining people's squat mechanics. Now here's where things get interesting.
The third-world squat should in fact be a position that most humans are capable of performing. And yes, various faults in our society have contributed to the elimination of this ability in many adults.
Here's the catch: The third-world squat and a strength-training squat are two entirely different movements requiring completely different recruitment patterns. In fact, the third-world squat is a passive squat where little if any muscle activation is evident as the individual simply hangs out on their joints, tendons, ligaments, and connective tissue.
In contrast, a strength-training squat is an active squat. In this case, the lifter should be firing his muscles aggressively in order to maintain stability, motor control, force, and muscle stiffness, all of which are essential for taking strain off the joints and using the muscles as shock absorbers. When a passive squat is incorporated into strength training scenarios with heavy loads, the muscles are in an overly relaxed state, particularly during the eccentric motion, thereby stressing the joints and connective tissue rather than the muscles."
This rings true to me. The squat seen throughout Asia is used as a position to relax, socialise, and rest. It's not loaded. For a Western desk jockey like myself, I can get down there (and do it regularly due to a few articles from Bret Contras), but it's anything but relaxed . . . and my back rounds.0 -
KiyaK wrote:Doing squats w raised heels is a bad idea, as a big component of squat technique is keeping your weight in your heels. Otherwise you're putting too much strain on your knees.
Where do you people get such misinformed ideas?
Raising the heels using a Squat shoe or plates does not prevent you from keeping your weight on your heels. In fact, it is meant to help you do this by enabling you to flex your ankles and achieve proper form.
Wearing raised shoes does not shift emphasis to your knees or strain them.
Squat shoes are used when you don't have good enough flexibility to achieve proper Squat depth with your feet flat on the floor. Working on more flexibility is a great idea, but it is a slow process. In the mean time, get some Squat shoes so you can keep squatting.
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What brand of squat shoes do you recommend?0
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singingflutelady wrote: »What brand of squat shoes do you recommend?
I use adidas powerlifts. They are great but after a few years I wish I had gotten a dedicated Olympic shoe with a slightly higher heel lift.
Do-win makes an affordable Olympic shoe. I think rogue makes one too. And then there are the $200 Nike romaleos, good but there is better value for a beginner.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »I have the natural flexibility of a big rig tire, and while I still work on that I wear Adidas Adipowers. Ignore the B.S. about raised heels causing knee problems. The shoes are designed that way for a reason. It works for me and plenty of others. If it works for you, go with it.
Edit: typo
^^ truth there.
Personally I use zero lift shoes and use a couple of 5kg plates (as per other posters above).
True Story (bro): I struggled for months with the squat, I watched 100s of YouTube vids, read every resource I could get my hands on (I had a photocopy of Rippetoe's Starting Strength section on squats pasted in the cover of my work out log book) but I kept on having problems - Injuries and lack of progression. So, I paid for a trainer who specialises in the big three lifts to spend some time working with me on this specific problem.
5 mins into the session (I'd not even squatted with an empty bar yet) had had identified poor ankle flexibility as one of my issues.
Ultimately he recommended some stretch/flexibility moves, corrected my foot position specific to my hip/knee and ankle mobility, and set me up lifting on 5kg plates. We discussed that this was something that I should work on and that I should be aiming to stop using the plates (I'm at that point now) but he was adamant that to squat without that blocking and with poor flexibility was WAY worse that continuing to squat flat (as evidenced by my repeated injuries).0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »
That puts more emphasis on the quads. If it allows you to move more naturally then go with it. As your quads increase in strength though make sure you are balancing it with hamstrings work such as Romanian deads. If you don't naturally go below parallel though don't make too much of it. Hit parallel and call it a day. Bret Contreras has some good discussions of this and if I remember right he tends to squat just slightly above parallel. If you're not a power lifter and are only going for strength increases then it's not an issue.
Really? It's not essential to go below parallel to see benefits? I am new to lifting and am interested in simply increasing strength, reducing my body fat percentage some, and building a bit more muscle. Everything I've read so far about squats says you MUST go below parallel or it's not a "real" squat, doesn't work the right muscles, doesn't give you the benefits, etc. But I have trouble going below parallel. Can I get benefits feom squats by stopping at parallel?
Please read the articles above. They do a far better job of explaining this than I can. Just keep in mind they aren't advocating half-squats.
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sunnybeaches105 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.
This in incorrect. Flexibility is natural. We lose it as we go about life (sitting for 8-12 hours a day, etc). Virtually any normal child can do what is pictured below.
And it doesn't necessarily go away as we age, goes away due to lifestyle:
We have to work to get it back. This article provides a nice discussion:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/third-world-squat
One of the things that is so frustrating about all of this is the the conflicting information. In contrast to that article on the same website, is this one (I also posted it above) that is much more recent.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/real-science-of-squat-depth
Apologies for the block 'o text, but here's a relevant quote:
"Third World Squat vs. Strength-Training Squat
Many who assert the ideology of using a baby's squat to represent the ideal squat pattern are quick to point to the "third world squat" often performed in other countries, particularly throughout Asia. In a third world squat, the individual simply relaxes into the deepest squat position where the butt is nearly touching the floor. Because this is almost identical to what babies do, it's assumed that society and technology are responsible for ruining people's squat mechanics. Now here's where things get interesting.
The third-world squat should in fact be a position that most humans are capable of performing. And yes, various faults in our society have contributed to the elimination of this ability in many adults.
Here's the catch: The third-world squat and a strength-training squat are two entirely different movements requiring completely different recruitment patterns. In fact, the third-world squat is a passive squat where little if any muscle activation is evident as the individual simply hangs out on their joints, tendons, ligaments, and connective tissue.
In contrast, a strength-training squat is an active squat. In this case, the lifter should be firing his muscles aggressively in order to maintain stability, motor control, force, and muscle stiffness, all of which are essential for taking strain off the joints and using the muscles as shock absorbers. When a passive squat is incorporated into strength training scenarios with heavy loads, the muscles are in an overly relaxed state, particularly during the eccentric motion, thereby stressing the joints and connective tissue rather than the muscles."
This rings true to me. The squat seen throughout Asia is used as a position to relax, socialise, and rest. It's not loaded. For a Western desk jockey like myself, I can get down there (and do it regularly due to a few articles from Bret Contras), but it's anything but relaxed . . . and my back rounds.
I agree with your points. My original post was refuting the claim that flexibility is not natural. To me, and I would think most people (unless you are a high level competitive lifter on a specialized training program) a balance is the way to go. Unloaded (or lightly loaded) deep 3rd World squats for the hip mobility, grooving movement patterns and back saving benefits. The loaded, active squat as the article mentions for strength.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.
This in incorrect. Flexibility is natural. We lose it as we go about life (sitting for 8-12 hours a day, etc). Virtually any normal child can do what is pictured below.
And it doesn't necessarily go away as we age, goes away due to lifestyle:
We have to work to get it back. This article provides a nice discussion:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/third-world-squat
One of the things that is so frustrating about all of this is the the conflicting information. In contrast to that article on the same website, is this one (I also posted it above) that is much more recent.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/real-science-of-squat-depth
Apologies for the block 'o text, but here's a relevant quote:
"Third World Squat vs. Strength-Training Squat
Many who assert the ideology of using a baby's squat to represent the ideal squat pattern are quick to point to the "third world squat" often performed in other countries, particularly throughout Asia. In a third world squat, the individual simply relaxes into the deepest squat position where the butt is nearly touching the floor. Because this is almost identical to what babies do, it's assumed that society and technology are responsible for ruining people's squat mechanics. Now here's where things get interesting.
The third-world squat should in fact be a position that most humans are capable of performing. And yes, various faults in our society have contributed to the elimination of this ability in many adults.
Here's the catch: The third-world squat and a strength-training squat are two entirely different movements requiring completely different recruitment patterns. In fact, the third-world squat is a passive squat where little if any muscle activation is evident as the individual simply hangs out on their joints, tendons, ligaments, and connective tissue.
In contrast, a strength-training squat is an active squat. In this case, the lifter should be firing his muscles aggressively in order to maintain stability, motor control, force, and muscle stiffness, all of which are essential for taking strain off the joints and using the muscles as shock absorbers. When a passive squat is incorporated into strength training scenarios with heavy loads, the muscles are in an overly relaxed state, particularly during the eccentric motion, thereby stressing the joints and connective tissue rather than the muscles."
This rings true to me. The squat seen throughout Asia is used as a position to relax, socialise, and rest. It's not loaded. For a Western desk jockey like myself, I can get down there (and do it regularly due to a few articles from Bret Contras), but it's anything but relaxed . . . and my back rounds.
But surely one is about flexibility and range of motion and the other is about power
so for a western desk jockey, practice in 3rd world squats makes if not perfect then easier
and I have to say since starting working on holding this position and introducing goblet squats my ease in the range of motion on backloaded squats has definitely improved0
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