Squats-flat or raised heels?

sunnybeaches105

rabbitjb wrote: »

sunnybeaches105 wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

KiyaK wrote: »

No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.

This in incorrect. Flexibility is natural. We lose it as we go about life (sitting for 8-12 hours a day, etc). Virtually any normal child can do what is pictured below.





And it doesn't necessarily go away as we age, goes away due to lifestyle:



We have to work to get it back. This article provides a nice discussion:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/third-world-squat

One of the things that is so frustrating about all of this is the the conflicting information. In contrast to that article on the same website, is this one (I also posted it above) that is much more recent.

https://www.t-nation.com/training/real-science-of-squat-depth

Apologies for the block 'o text, but here's a relevant quote:

"Third World Squat vs. Strength-Training Squat
Many who assert the ideology of using a baby's squat to represent the ideal squat pattern are quick to point to the "third world squat" often performed in other countries, particularly throughout Asia. In a third world squat, the individual simply relaxes into the deepest squat position where the butt is nearly touching the floor. Because this is almost identical to what babies do, it's assumed that society and technology are responsible for ruining people's squat mechanics. Now here's where things get interesting.

The third-world squat should in fact be a position that most humans are capable of performing. And yes, various faults in our society have contributed to the elimination of this ability in many adults.

Here's the catch: The third-world squat and a strength-training squat are two entirely different movements requiring completely different recruitment patterns. In fact, the third-world squat is a passive squat where little if any muscle activation is evident as the individual simply hangs out on their joints, tendons, ligaments, and connective tissue.

In contrast, a strength-training squat is an active squat. In this case, the lifter should be firing his muscles aggressively in order to maintain stability, motor control, force, and muscle stiffness, all of which are essential for taking strain off the joints and using the muscles as shock absorbers. When a passive squat is incorporated into strength training scenarios with heavy loads, the muscles are in an overly relaxed state, particularly during the eccentric motion, thereby stressing the joints and connective tissue rather than the muscles."

This rings true to me. The squat seen throughout Asia is used as a position to relax, socialise, and rest. It's not loaded. For a Western desk jockey like myself, I can get down there (and do it regularly due to a few articles from Bret Contras), but it's anything but relaxed . . . and my back rounds.

But surely one is about flexibility and range of motion and the other is about power

so for a western desk jockey, practice in 3rd world squats makes if not perfect then easier

and I have to say since starting working on holding this position and introducing goblet squats my ease in the range of motion on backloaded squats has definitely improved

I think that is the point and agree with you. Same with packerjohn above.

SideSteel

The purpose of raising the heel is to reduce ankle dorsiflexion demands.

This will enable you to sit back into the squat more if you lack the ankle dorsiflexion required.

I think purchasing a squat shoe would be a safer and more consistent method than standing on plates.

I don't believe you're going to increase knee stress by elevating the heel slightly provided that the net result is an improved squat, and if done correctly that SHOULD be the result. You would be reducing the need for as much ankle dorsiflexion making it easier to hit depth, and improper ankle mobility can sometimes express itself further up the kinetic chain causing all kinds of problems.

Not everyone needs a squat shoe but it can be highly beneficial. I wear them and love it.

datsundriver87

I'm still pretty new to strength training, I am barely able (if at all) to get parallel even without a bar due to hip flexibility, I also have patallar tendinitis in one knee (I'm lead to believe it's because my knee is taking the brunt of what my hip should). Long story short lots of reading has lead me to believe that until I can become more flexible (which I'm working on by doing a ton of body squats) that a raised heel squat will actually help alleviate my knee pain, but in this thread it seems like people are saying it could do more damage to your knees.... Which one is it?

Packerjohn

datsundriver87 wrote: »

I'm still pretty new to strength training, I am barely able (if at all) to get parallel even without a bar due to hip flexibility, I also have patallar tendinitis in one knee (I'm lead to believe it's because my knee is taking the brunt of what my hip should). Long story short lots of reading has lead me to believe that until I can become more flexible (which I'm working on by doing a ton of body squats) that a raised heel squat will actually help alleviate my knee pain, but in this thread it seems like people are saying it could do more damage to your knees.... Which one is it?

To be honest, given your description this really isn't a question that can be answered in a forum. I would suggest finding a physical therapist that could evaluate and advise you in person.

SideSteel

Packerjohn wrote: »

datsundriver87 wrote: »

I'm still pretty new to strength training, I am barely able (if at all) to get parallel even without a bar due to hip flexibility, I also have patallar tendinitis in one knee (I'm lead to believe it's because my knee is taking the brunt of what my hip should). Long story short lots of reading has lead me to believe that until I can become more flexible (which I'm working on by doing a ton of body squats) that a raised heel squat will actually help alleviate my knee pain, but in this thread it seems like people are saying it could do more damage to your knees.... Which one is it?

To be honest, given your description this really isn't a question that can be answered in a forum. I would suggest finding a physical therapist that could evaluate and advise you in person.

^ Agreed, preferably a PT who lifts

poteatkd

Bookmarking this thread...a lot of good info here to research on.

I'm currently having trouble with flat heeled squats as well.

For close to 20 years, I played baseball and softball and the majority of those years I was a catcher.

As a catcher, while I squatted in position, I was primarily squatting on my toes for improved reaction time during play.

I have a really hard time staying flat footed and feel I am failing with squats. I don't want to fail!

Any suggestions, links, etc are greatly appreciated.

Good thread.

JoRocka

KiyaK wrote: »

Sounds like you need to work on flexibility. Doing squats w raised heels is a bad idea, as a big component of squat technique is keeping your weight in your heels. Otherwise you're putting too much strain on your knees.
There's not much point in doing an exercise with improper form, as it won't work the muscles you want to work & it could eventually lead to serious injury.

ugh- no.
Raising the heels 1/4-1" allows for mobility work - if you have a tight Achilles you might not be able to get depth- and without that you can't ever work down lower- a little lift will allow you more mob to get depth and continue working- its a tool- nothing more- nothing less)

As for natural flexibility- vs unnatural flexibility- it's something that can DEFINITELY be improved.

BUT- not everyone will EVER have the same flexibility or MOBILITY (and those two things are not the same fyi)
due to the way your bones sit in your joints and at what angle- some people may never be able to hit a full split for example- but that doesn't mean you shouldn't work on it. or whatever relevant flexibility issue your having.

mattyc772014

So happy to see this thread and all the good info. Bought Adidas powerlifting shoes yesterday and used them this morning on squats. Depth was great and felt great. Was using a martial arts type slipper. The powerlifting shoe gave me more stability. Felt more comfortable at higher weights. Thanks for the great info.

kelly_e_montana

I used to squat in Chucks. Now I squat in Nike Romaleos. I am a higher bar squatter though and also do olympic lifting. I am kind of a unicorn though in that I compete in powerlifting with an olympic squat because I don't want to screw up my patterns in o-lifting. f I were a low bar squatter and used a wider stance, I'd probably still be in my Chucks. If you're not powerlifting competitively, and you're conventional deadlifting, including olympic squatting in your routine can give you some balance in your posterior vs. anterior chain. If you're low bar squatting and conventional deadlifting but are not incorporating front squats or olympic squats, you may find yourself with underpowered quads relative to your posterior chain.

I love my Romaleos but I also recommend Adipowers.

If you can't do a pistol squat, or you tend to come forward on your toes, then yes, work on your ankle dorsiflexion. I like banded ankle distraction with my forefoot on a plate. Basically, it's what's shown in this video, but you can use a plate if you want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZzdgPq0FYc&ebc=ANyPxKq_VNSyeZJDGGqEPuOEJrm9hnsNoHBbb48uifFZlDjdotaewdgh3Lf4OT0pGTciYoWioTEGAHD9o_VpFC5nO9db6cZKzg

zyxst

poteatkd wrote: »

Bookmarking this thread...a lot of good info here to research on.

I'm currently having trouble with flat heeled squats as well.

For close to 20 years, I played baseball and softball and the majority of those years I was a catcher.

As a catcher, while I squatted in position, I was primarily squatting on my toes for improved reaction time during play.

I have a really hard time staying flat footed and feel I am failing with squats. I don't want to fail!

Any suggestions, links, etc are greatly appreciated.

Good thread.

I have the same problem, minus the catcher bit. Squatting to squat, I'm fine. Squatting like lifters, face plant or continuous teetering. I've been told to squat through my heels, don't lean forward, and go A2G. Since I can't squat like a lifter and it feels super unnatural, I don't bother squatting.

sunnybeaches105

zyxst wrote: »

poteatkd wrote: »

Bookmarking this thread...a lot of good info here to research on.

I'm currently having trouble with flat heeled squats as well.

For close to 20 years, I played baseball and softball and the majority of those years I was a catcher.

As a catcher, while I squatted in position, I was primarily squatting on my toes for improved reaction time during play.

I have a really hard time staying flat footed and feel I am failing with squats. I don't want to fail!

Any suggestions, links, etc are greatly appreciated.

Good thread.

I have the same problem, minus the catcher bit. Squatting to squat, I'm fine. Squatting like lifters, face plant or continuous teetering. I've been told to squat through my heels, don't lean forward, and go A2G. Since I can't squat like a lifter and it feels super unnatural, I don't bother squatting.

The articles above are pretty clear that you don't need to go ATG to benefit from squatting. Here, let me post this again: https://www.t-nation.com/training/squat-depth-the-final-answer

whmscll

SO...if you are not a powerlifter...do you get more benefit squatting with flat shoes and getting to parallel but not below, or using squat shoes and getting below parallel?

sunnybeaches105

Bret Contreras posted another short article on squat depth today. This one is on femur length and he highlights some other issues at the end. https://bretcontreras.com/how-femur-length-effects-squat-mechanics/

sunnybeaches105

whmscll wrote: »

SO...if you are not a powerlifter...do you get more benefit squatting with flat shoes and getting to parallel but not below, or using squat shoes and getting below parallel?

If you're not doing olympic lifts (which are assisted by a deep squat), and you can hit paraellel why avoiding butt wink, then you don't "need" weightlifting shoes. That's based on the above articles and other advice, so please don't think I'm representing that I have any expertise in this area aside from personal experience and tired reading eyes. I'll also add wear what is most comfortable for you.

paulandrachelk

Fused ankle. Raised is only way I can squat.

45strotter

Don't stress over it! Lifting your heels is great for helping you get set back into your squat and going a little lower. More importantly is making sure your knees are not going over your toes. So if it helps with your form than lift your heels. I do both! Have been lifting for a few years and will occasionally go back to lifting my heels!!! Goblet squats are also great to add in !!!! Start with body weight and really work on form!

jimmmer

Your body won't normally let you into ranges of motion that it doesn't trust you with.

Most people don't realise that to gain range of motion in your limbs, you should probably work on core and trunk stability first. You then need to build movement patterns from various positions that build up from basic to more advanced (i.e. for squats you can work on core stability and breathing/bracing in the 90/90 supine position, then side lying position, etc).

Basically weak and/or unstable positions tell your body to shut down range. Work on getting stable and you'll get more mobility guaranteed.

As to heels/no heels, pick a squat variation that conforms to your body type and progress it (look for good squatters with your body type/proportions and see what they are up to, try out a few close-cousin variations until you find what clicks for you...)