Squats-flat or raised heels?
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sunnybeaches105 wrote: »
That puts more emphasis on the quads. If it allows you to move more naturally then go with it. As your quads increase in strength though make sure you are balancing it with hamstrings work such as Romanian deads. If you don't naturally go below parallel though don't make too much of it. Hit parallel and call it a day. Bret Contreras has some good discussions of this and if I remember right he tends to squat just slightly above parallel. If you're not a power lifter and are only going for strength increases then it's not an issue.
Really? It's not essential to go below parallel to see benefits? I am new to lifting and am interested in simply increasing strength, reducing my body fat percentage some, and building a bit more muscle. Everything I've read so far about squats says you MUST go below parallel or it's not a "real" squat, doesn't work the right muscles, doesn't give you the benefits, etc. But I have trouble going below parallel. Can I get benefits feom squats by stopping at parallel?0 -
No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.
This in incorrect. Flexibility is natural. We lose it as we go about life (sitting for 8-12 hours a day, etc). Virtually any normal child can do what is pictured below.
And it doesn't necessarily go away as we age, goes away due to lifestyle:
We have to work to get it back. This article provides a nice discussion:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/third-world-squat
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Packerjohn wrote: »No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.
This in incorrect. Flexibility is natural. We lose it as we go about life (sitting for 8-12 hours a day, etc). Virtually any normal child can do what is pictured below.
And it doesn't necessarily go away as we age, goes away due to lifestyle:
We have to work to get it back. This article provides a nice discussion:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/third-world-squat
One of the things that is so frustrating about all of this is the the conflicting information. In contrast to that article on the same website, is this one (I also posted it above) that is much more recent.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/real-science-of-squat-depth
Apologies for the block 'o text, but here's a relevant quote:
"Third World Squat vs. Strength-Training Squat
Many who assert the ideology of using a baby's squat to represent the ideal squat pattern are quick to point to the "third world squat" often performed in other countries, particularly throughout Asia. In a third world squat, the individual simply relaxes into the deepest squat position where the butt is nearly touching the floor. Because this is almost identical to what babies do, it's assumed that society and technology are responsible for ruining people's squat mechanics. Now here's where things get interesting.
The third-world squat should in fact be a position that most humans are capable of performing. And yes, various faults in our society have contributed to the elimination of this ability in many adults.
Here's the catch: The third-world squat and a strength-training squat are two entirely different movements requiring completely different recruitment patterns. In fact, the third-world squat is a passive squat where little if any muscle activation is evident as the individual simply hangs out on their joints, tendons, ligaments, and connective tissue.
In contrast, a strength-training squat is an active squat. In this case, the lifter should be firing his muscles aggressively in order to maintain stability, motor control, force, and muscle stiffness, all of which are essential for taking strain off the joints and using the muscles as shock absorbers. When a passive squat is incorporated into strength training scenarios with heavy loads, the muscles are in an overly relaxed state, particularly during the eccentric motion, thereby stressing the joints and connective tissue rather than the muscles."
This rings true to me. The squat seen throughout Asia is used as a position to relax, socialise, and rest. It's not loaded. For a Western desk jockey like myself, I can get down there (and do it regularly due to a few articles from Bret Contras), but it's anything but relaxed . . . and my back rounds.0 -
KiyaK wrote:Doing squats w raised heels is a bad idea, as a big component of squat technique is keeping your weight in your heels. Otherwise you're putting too much strain on your knees.
Where do you people get such misinformed ideas?
Raising the heels using a Squat shoe or plates does not prevent you from keeping your weight on your heels. In fact, it is meant to help you do this by enabling you to flex your ankles and achieve proper form.
Wearing raised shoes does not shift emphasis to your knees or strain them.
Squat shoes are used when you don't have good enough flexibility to achieve proper Squat depth with your feet flat on the floor. Working on more flexibility is a great idea, but it is a slow process. In the mean time, get some Squat shoes so you can keep squatting.
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What brand of squat shoes do you recommend?0
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singingflutelady wrote: »What brand of squat shoes do you recommend?
I use adidas powerlifts. They are great but after a few years I wish I had gotten a dedicated Olympic shoe with a slightly higher heel lift.
Do-win makes an affordable Olympic shoe. I think rogue makes one too. And then there are the $200 Nike romaleos, good but there is better value for a beginner.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »I have the natural flexibility of a big rig tire, and while I still work on that I wear Adidas Adipowers. Ignore the B.S. about raised heels causing knee problems. The shoes are designed that way for a reason. It works for me and plenty of others. If it works for you, go with it.
Edit: typo
^^ truth there.
Personally I use zero lift shoes and use a couple of 5kg plates (as per other posters above).
True Story (bro): I struggled for months with the squat, I watched 100s of YouTube vids, read every resource I could get my hands on (I had a photocopy of Rippetoe's Starting Strength section on squats pasted in the cover of my work out log book) but I kept on having problems - Injuries and lack of progression. So, I paid for a trainer who specialises in the big three lifts to spend some time working with me on this specific problem.
5 mins into the session (I'd not even squatted with an empty bar yet) had had identified poor ankle flexibility as one of my issues.
Ultimately he recommended some stretch/flexibility moves, corrected my foot position specific to my hip/knee and ankle mobility, and set me up lifting on 5kg plates. We discussed that this was something that I should work on and that I should be aiming to stop using the plates (I'm at that point now) but he was adamant that to squat without that blocking and with poor flexibility was WAY worse that continuing to squat flat (as evidenced by my repeated injuries).0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »
That puts more emphasis on the quads. If it allows you to move more naturally then go with it. As your quads increase in strength though make sure you are balancing it with hamstrings work such as Romanian deads. If you don't naturally go below parallel though don't make too much of it. Hit parallel and call it a day. Bret Contreras has some good discussions of this and if I remember right he tends to squat just slightly above parallel. If you're not a power lifter and are only going for strength increases then it's not an issue.
Really? It's not essential to go below parallel to see benefits? I am new to lifting and am interested in simply increasing strength, reducing my body fat percentage some, and building a bit more muscle. Everything I've read so far about squats says you MUST go below parallel or it's not a "real" squat, doesn't work the right muscles, doesn't give you the benefits, etc. But I have trouble going below parallel. Can I get benefits feom squats by stopping at parallel?
Please read the articles above. They do a far better job of explaining this than I can. Just keep in mind they aren't advocating half-squats.
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sunnybeaches105 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.
This in incorrect. Flexibility is natural. We lose it as we go about life (sitting for 8-12 hours a day, etc). Virtually any normal child can do what is pictured below.
And it doesn't necessarily go away as we age, goes away due to lifestyle:
We have to work to get it back. This article provides a nice discussion:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/third-world-squat
One of the things that is so frustrating about all of this is the the conflicting information. In contrast to that article on the same website, is this one (I also posted it above) that is much more recent.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/real-science-of-squat-depth
Apologies for the block 'o text, but here's a relevant quote:
"Third World Squat vs. Strength-Training Squat
Many who assert the ideology of using a baby's squat to represent the ideal squat pattern are quick to point to the "third world squat" often performed in other countries, particularly throughout Asia. In a third world squat, the individual simply relaxes into the deepest squat position where the butt is nearly touching the floor. Because this is almost identical to what babies do, it's assumed that society and technology are responsible for ruining people's squat mechanics. Now here's where things get interesting.
The third-world squat should in fact be a position that most humans are capable of performing. And yes, various faults in our society have contributed to the elimination of this ability in many adults.
Here's the catch: The third-world squat and a strength-training squat are two entirely different movements requiring completely different recruitment patterns. In fact, the third-world squat is a passive squat where little if any muscle activation is evident as the individual simply hangs out on their joints, tendons, ligaments, and connective tissue.
In contrast, a strength-training squat is an active squat. In this case, the lifter should be firing his muscles aggressively in order to maintain stability, motor control, force, and muscle stiffness, all of which are essential for taking strain off the joints and using the muscles as shock absorbers. When a passive squat is incorporated into strength training scenarios with heavy loads, the muscles are in an overly relaxed state, particularly during the eccentric motion, thereby stressing the joints and connective tissue rather than the muscles."
This rings true to me. The squat seen throughout Asia is used as a position to relax, socialise, and rest. It's not loaded. For a Western desk jockey like myself, I can get down there (and do it regularly due to a few articles from Bret Contras), but it's anything but relaxed . . . and my back rounds.
I agree with your points. My original post was refuting the claim that flexibility is not natural. To me, and I would think most people (unless you are a high level competitive lifter on a specialized training program) a balance is the way to go. Unloaded (or lightly loaded) deep 3rd World squats for the hip mobility, grooving movement patterns and back saving benefits. The loaded, active squat as the article mentions for strength.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.
This in incorrect. Flexibility is natural. We lose it as we go about life (sitting for 8-12 hours a day, etc). Virtually any normal child can do what is pictured below.
And it doesn't necessarily go away as we age, goes away due to lifestyle:
We have to work to get it back. This article provides a nice discussion:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/third-world-squat
One of the things that is so frustrating about all of this is the the conflicting information. In contrast to that article on the same website, is this one (I also posted it above) that is much more recent.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/real-science-of-squat-depth
Apologies for the block 'o text, but here's a relevant quote:
"Third World Squat vs. Strength-Training Squat
Many who assert the ideology of using a baby's squat to represent the ideal squat pattern are quick to point to the "third world squat" often performed in other countries, particularly throughout Asia. In a third world squat, the individual simply relaxes into the deepest squat position where the butt is nearly touching the floor. Because this is almost identical to what babies do, it's assumed that society and technology are responsible for ruining people's squat mechanics. Now here's where things get interesting.
The third-world squat should in fact be a position that most humans are capable of performing. And yes, various faults in our society have contributed to the elimination of this ability in many adults.
Here's the catch: The third-world squat and a strength-training squat are two entirely different movements requiring completely different recruitment patterns. In fact, the third-world squat is a passive squat where little if any muscle activation is evident as the individual simply hangs out on their joints, tendons, ligaments, and connective tissue.
In contrast, a strength-training squat is an active squat. In this case, the lifter should be firing his muscles aggressively in order to maintain stability, motor control, force, and muscle stiffness, all of which are essential for taking strain off the joints and using the muscles as shock absorbers. When a passive squat is incorporated into strength training scenarios with heavy loads, the muscles are in an overly relaxed state, particularly during the eccentric motion, thereby stressing the joints and connective tissue rather than the muscles."
This rings true to me. The squat seen throughout Asia is used as a position to relax, socialise, and rest. It's not loaded. For a Western desk jockey like myself, I can get down there (and do it regularly due to a few articles from Bret Contras), but it's anything but relaxed . . . and my back rounds.
But surely one is about flexibility and range of motion and the other is about power
so for a western desk jockey, practice in 3rd world squats makes if not perfect then easier
and I have to say since starting working on holding this position and introducing goblet squats my ease in the range of motion on backloaded squats has definitely improved0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »No one's flexibility is natural. They get it by repeatedly moving through a greater range of motion. Don't like your flexibility range? Practice pressing on the edges of it (i.e. stretching, yoga, etc.) On a regular basis. It will change.
This in incorrect. Flexibility is natural. We lose it as we go about life (sitting for 8-12 hours a day, etc). Virtually any normal child can do what is pictured below.
And it doesn't necessarily go away as we age, goes away due to lifestyle:
We have to work to get it back. This article provides a nice discussion:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/third-world-squat
One of the things that is so frustrating about all of this is the the conflicting information. In contrast to that article on the same website, is this one (I also posted it above) that is much more recent.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/real-science-of-squat-depth
Apologies for the block 'o text, but here's a relevant quote:
"Third World Squat vs. Strength-Training Squat
Many who assert the ideology of using a baby's squat to represent the ideal squat pattern are quick to point to the "third world squat" often performed in other countries, particularly throughout Asia. In a third world squat, the individual simply relaxes into the deepest squat position where the butt is nearly touching the floor. Because this is almost identical to what babies do, it's assumed that society and technology are responsible for ruining people's squat mechanics. Now here's where things get interesting.
The third-world squat should in fact be a position that most humans are capable of performing. And yes, various faults in our society have contributed to the elimination of this ability in many adults.
Here's the catch: The third-world squat and a strength-training squat are two entirely different movements requiring completely different recruitment patterns. In fact, the third-world squat is a passive squat where little if any muscle activation is evident as the individual simply hangs out on their joints, tendons, ligaments, and connective tissue.
In contrast, a strength-training squat is an active squat. In this case, the lifter should be firing his muscles aggressively in order to maintain stability, motor control, force, and muscle stiffness, all of which are essential for taking strain off the joints and using the muscles as shock absorbers. When a passive squat is incorporated into strength training scenarios with heavy loads, the muscles are in an overly relaxed state, particularly during the eccentric motion, thereby stressing the joints and connective tissue rather than the muscles."
This rings true to me. The squat seen throughout Asia is used as a position to relax, socialise, and rest. It's not loaded. For a Western desk jockey like myself, I can get down there (and do it regularly due to a few articles from Bret Contras), but it's anything but relaxed . . . and my back rounds.
But surely one is about flexibility and range of motion and the other is about power
so for a western desk jockey, practice in 3rd world squats makes if not perfect then easier
and I have to say since starting working on holding this position and introducing goblet squats my ease in the range of motion on backloaded squats has definitely improved
I think that is the point and agree with you. Same with packerjohn above.
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The purpose of raising the heel is to reduce ankle dorsiflexion demands.
This will enable you to sit back into the squat more if you lack the ankle dorsiflexion required.
I think purchasing a squat shoe would be a safer and more consistent method than standing on plates.
I don't believe you're going to increase knee stress by elevating the heel slightly provided that the net result is an improved squat, and if done correctly that SHOULD be the result. You would be reducing the need for as much ankle dorsiflexion making it easier to hit depth, and improper ankle mobility can sometimes express itself further up the kinetic chain causing all kinds of problems.
Not everyone needs a squat shoe but it can be highly beneficial. I wear them and love it.0 -
I'm still pretty new to strength training, I am barely able (if at all) to get parallel even without a bar due to hip flexibility, I also have patallar tendinitis in one knee (I'm lead to believe it's because my knee is taking the brunt of what my hip should). Long story short lots of reading has lead me to believe that until I can become more flexible (which I'm working on by doing a ton of body squats) that a raised heel squat will actually help alleviate my knee pain, but in this thread it seems like people are saying it could do more damage to your knees.... Which one is it?0
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datsundriver87 wrote: »I'm still pretty new to strength training, I am barely able (if at all) to get parallel even without a bar due to hip flexibility, I also have patallar tendinitis in one knee (I'm lead to believe it's because my knee is taking the brunt of what my hip should). Long story short lots of reading has lead me to believe that until I can become more flexible (which I'm working on by doing a ton of body squats) that a raised heel squat will actually help alleviate my knee pain, but in this thread it seems like people are saying it could do more damage to your knees.... Which one is it?
To be honest, given your description this really isn't a question that can be answered in a forum. I would suggest finding a physical therapist that could evaluate and advise you in person.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »datsundriver87 wrote: »I'm still pretty new to strength training, I am barely able (if at all) to get parallel even without a bar due to hip flexibility, I also have patallar tendinitis in one knee (I'm lead to believe it's because my knee is taking the brunt of what my hip should). Long story short lots of reading has lead me to believe that until I can become more flexible (which I'm working on by doing a ton of body squats) that a raised heel squat will actually help alleviate my knee pain, but in this thread it seems like people are saying it could do more damage to your knees.... Which one is it?
To be honest, given your description this really isn't a question that can be answered in a forum. I would suggest finding a physical therapist that could evaluate and advise you in person.
^ Agreed, preferably a PT who lifts0 -
Bookmarking this thread...a lot of good info here to research on.
I'm currently having trouble with flat heeled squats as well.
For close to 20 years, I played baseball and softball and the majority of those years I was a catcher.
As a catcher, while I squatted in position, I was primarily squatting on my toes for improved reaction time during play.
I have a really hard time staying flat footed and feel I am failing with squats. I don't want to fail!
Any suggestions, links, etc are greatly appreciated.
Good thread.0 -
Sounds like you need to work on flexibility. Doing squats w raised heels is a bad idea, as a big component of squat technique is keeping your weight in your heels. Otherwise you're putting too much strain on your knees.
There's not much point in doing an exercise with improper form, as it won't work the muscles you want to work & it could eventually lead to serious injury.
ugh- no.
Raising the heels 1/4-1" allows for mobility work - if you have a tight Achilles you might not be able to get depth- and without that you can't ever work down lower- a little lift will allow you more mob to get depth and continue working- its a tool- nothing more- nothing less)
As for natural flexibility- vs unnatural flexibility- it's something that can DEFINITELY be improved.
BUT- not everyone will EVER have the same flexibility or MOBILITY (and those two things are not the same fyi)
due to the way your bones sit in your joints and at what angle- some people may never be able to hit a full split for example- but that doesn't mean you shouldn't work on it. or whatever relevant flexibility issue your having.0 -
So happy to see this thread and all the good info. Bought Adidas powerlifting shoes yesterday and used them this morning on squats. Depth was great and felt great. Was using a martial arts type slipper. The powerlifting shoe gave me more stability. Felt more comfortable at higher weights. Thanks for the great info.0
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I used to squat in Chucks. Now I squat in Nike Romaleos. I am a higher bar squatter though and also do olympic lifting. I am kind of a unicorn though in that I compete in powerlifting with an olympic squat because I don't want to screw up my patterns in o-lifting.
f I were a low bar squatter and used a wider stance, I'd probably still be in my Chucks. If you're not powerlifting competitively, and you're conventional deadlifting, including olympic squatting in your routine can give you some balance in your posterior vs. anterior chain. If you're low bar squatting and conventional deadlifting but are not incorporating front squats or olympic squats, you may find yourself with underpowered quads relative to your posterior chain.
I love my Romaleos but I also recommend Adipowers.
If you can't do a pistol squat, or you tend to come forward on your toes, then yes, work on your ankle dorsiflexion. I like banded ankle distraction with my forefoot on a plate. Basically, it's what's shown in this video, but you can use a plate if you want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZzdgPq0FYc&ebc=ANyPxKq_VNSyeZJDGGqEPuOEJrm9hnsNoHBbb48uifFZlDjdotaewdgh3Lf4OT0pGTciYoWioTEGAHD9o_VpFC5nO9db6cZKzg 0 -
Bookmarking this thread...a lot of good info here to research on.
I'm currently having trouble with flat heeled squats as well.
For close to 20 years, I played baseball and softball and the majority of those years I was a catcher.
As a catcher, while I squatted in position, I was primarily squatting on my toes for improved reaction time during play.
I have a really hard time staying flat footed and feel I am failing with squats. I don't want to fail!
Any suggestions, links, etc are greatly appreciated.
Good thread.
I have the same problem, minus the catcher bit. Squatting to squat, I'm fine. Squatting like lifters, face plant or continuous teetering. I've been told to squat through my heels, don't lean forward, and go A2G. Since I can't squat like a lifter and it feels super unnatural, I don't bother squatting.0
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