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New Take On How Gastric Bypass Cures Diabetes

GaleHawkinsGaleHawkins Posts: 7,623Member Member Posts: 7,623Member Member
directorsblog.nih.gov/2013/07/30/new-take-on-how-gastric-bypass-cures-diabetes/

This has always been a mystery to me since I learned around 90% of Gastric Bypass patients are cured of diabetes.

Clearly if this physical stomach alteration can cure very obese people of diabetes in a week or two we have missed a factor or more in the cause of diabetes.

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Replies

  • stephanieluvspbstephanieluvspb Posts: 1,008Member, Premium Member Posts: 1,008Member, Premium Member
    Most diabetics, overweight or not, will have issues with low blood glucose if they go long periods without eating or not eating enough. with gastric bypass you will be eating so little it makes sense your glucose levels will decrease therefore decreasing the need for insulin.
    My question is are they cured or in remission? If they begin eating as they had before surgery will the need for diabetic meds arise?
  • rwhyte12rwhyte12 Posts: 201Member Member Posts: 201Member Member
    I hard from a friend that Gastric Bypass seems to mean she can eat very small amounts of food. She was very overweight in her lower body before (about a size 24), then she went down to a 16 and she has climbed back up to about a 20. IN addition, she has lots of medical problems related to nutritional deficiencies. What Gastric Bypass cures really fast is Fatty Liver disease and that is something that prevents weight loss. 50 percent of people with Fatty Liver disease have Type 2 Diabetes within about seven years of developing it. From my reading, Fatty Liver Disease, PCOS (women) and Diabetes (not type 1) seem to be closely related. So I wonder if this is part of the puzzle you mention, Gale.
  • GaleHawkinsGaleHawkins Posts: 7,623Member Member Posts: 7,623Member Member
    Most diabetics, overweight or not, will have issues with low blood glucose if they go long periods without eating or not eating enough. with gastric bypass you will be eating so little it makes sense your glucose levels will decrease therefore decreasing the need for insulin.
    My question is are they cured or in remission? If they begin eating as they had before surgery will the need for diabetic meds arise?

    @stephanieluvspb I agree with your point. Remission or cure would be mean we would have to know the 'cause' of diabetes.

    drmalcolmkendrick.org/2015/07/19/what-happens-to-the-carbs-part-ii/ in part states about the cause of diabetes:

    "Just to summarize these ‘paradoxical’ facts:

    You do not need any fat cells to develop diabetes/if you have no fat cells there is a 100% probability that you will be diabetic
    You can be very , very, obese and not have diabetes
    You can have increased insulin production long before you become obese (and/or insulin resistant). You become obese later.

    Just to remind you of the current model.

    You eat too much
    You get fat
    As you get fat you become more insulin resistant
    In order to overcome this resistance you produce more insulin
    Eventually you cannot produce enough insulin, the system ‘burns out’ and you develop type II diabetes
    Where and how can the paradoxical facts be fitted? The answer is that they cannot. Ergo, the model is wrong.

    However, luckily, there is another model that fits all the facts. One that I prepared earlier:

    You produce too much insulin
    This forces your body to store fat
    You become obese
    At a certain point insulin resistance develops to block further weight gain
    This resistance becomes more and more severe until…
    You become diabetic

    This model explains the Pima Indians. Can Sumo wrestlers be fitted into this model? Yes, with a couple of addendums. Sumo Wrestlers eat to become fat, because added mass provides a competitive advantage if you are trying to shove someone else out of a small ring, before they do it to you."

    "But what of ‘normal’ people. Can normal people be fitted into the updated model of type II diabetes? Well, of course, they can. But you need another step in the new model, the first step. Which means we have a new causal chain, and it looks something like this ‘You eat too much carbohydrate.’ Adding in this step gives us the new model:

    You eat too much carbohydrate/sugar
    You produce too much insulin
    This forces your body to store fat
    You become obese
    At a certain point insulin resistance develops to block further weight gain
    This resistance becomes more and more severe until…
    You become diabetic

    The best thing about this model is that it works. It is not contradicted by Sumo Wrestlers, Pima Indians of those with lipodystrophy. It explains the association between obesity and diabetes, and how insulin resistance develops. It may not be perfect, but it is a bloody site better than the simplistic model we have got. The one that says, if you eat fat, you will get fatter, then diabetic…. Bong! If you are diabetic you should eat carbohydrate and sugar, not fat…Bong!

    How long before mainstream medicine rejects this mainstream model? Another fifty years or so, I would guess"



    edited April 2016
  • GaleHawkinsGaleHawkins Posts: 7,623Member Member Posts: 7,623Member Member
    @rwhyte12 that may very well be part of the puzzle. Another part of the article I posted in reply to @stephanieluvspb reads:

    "However, mild to moderate insulin resistance, even if blood sugar levels are not consistently raised, is not benign. It is associated with a whole series of other metabolic abnormalities such as: central obesity, raised VLDL/triglycerides, low HDL, high blood pressure, high levels of blood clotting factors – to name but a few. In addition you can also find higher sugar levels, and higher insulin levels in the post-prandial state (after eating). Most importantly, to my mind, mild to moderate insulin resistance is also associated with a far higher rate of heart disease.

    In the early days, ‘pre-diabetes’ came under many different monikers. Just to give you four:

    Reaven’s syndrome
    Syndrome X
    Insulin resistance syndrome
    Metabolic syndrome

    This caused a lot of initial confusion, but once I chased them all down, it because clear that these different names were simply describing the same phenomenon, which is probably best described as insulin resistance syndrome. Although this title carries its own problems."

    As Dr. Kendrick states in the above link it seems eating too much Carbohydrates/Sugar are the cause of the above. If that be the case then that addresses the one and only cause of Diabetes.

    We know when we stop overeating sugars/carbs four names above goes away and Type 2 diabetes more often than not become Insulin and Rx med free.

    If diabetes can not develop without " You eat too much carbohydrate/sugar" then would not eating too much carbohydrate/sugar be a full cure of Diabetes?

    drmalcolmkendrick.org/2015/08/04/turning-diabetes-upside-down/ a clip from this link:

    "Some of you may have watched Professor Unger’s fascinating YouTube lecture on type II diabetes. If not, here it is. I recommend it1. To keep things as simple as possible, his view is that the key hormone that drives diabetes is glucagon, not insulin. Indeed, by focussing almost entirely on insulin and sugar/glucose, we cannot understand what is going on with type 2 diabetes, as we are only looking at a small part of the picture. In addition, we are looking at it the wrong way round."

    Make sure you read the 5th comment at the bottom by Denise LCHF Downunder.
    October 21, 2015 at 6:47 pm.

    Make sure you catch the part that states:

    "I found a Link to an Old 1927 Cookbook for the treatment of Diabetes before Insulin was available as a treatment for T1D and what was once considered old age diabetes. Insulin resistance or T2D today’s version of it.

    What really amazes me is that the only real treatment was Nutrition as Medicine the only way it was treated.

    Under 40gms of Carbs per day. Bone broths – High Fat – Medium Protein – Low carbs. If one did not follow this protocol one would likely die."

    Folks LCHF has been in the cookbooks before any of us was born. People want to ask, "What are the dangers of LCHF diets". Maybe they should be be asking, "What are the dangers of NOT eating LCHF diets?"

    We could just say DIABETES.

    Dr. Fung talks about carbs become dangerous to humans when they become processed and devoid of fiber.

    https://youtu.be/tIuj-oMN-Fk

    The two article by Dr. Malcolm Kendrick about the true nature of the cause of diabetes offer many other leads to chase. :)






  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    Most diabetics, overweight or not, will have issues with low blood glucose if they go long periods without eating or not eating enough. with gastric bypass you will be eating so little it makes sense your glucose levels will decrease therefore decreasing the need for insulin.
    My question is are they cured or in remission? If they begin eating as they had before surgery will the need for diabetic meds arise?

    @stephanieluvspb I agree with your point. Remission or cure would be mean we would have to know the 'cause' of diabetes.

    drmalcolmkendrick.org/2015/07/19/what-happens-to-the-carbs-part-ii/ in part states:

    "Just to summarize these ‘paradoxical’ facts:

    You do not need any fat cells to develop diabetes/if you have no fat cells there is a 100% probability that you will be diabetic
    You can be very , very, obese and not have diabetes
    You can have increased insulin production long before you become obese (and/or insulin resistant). You become obese later.

    Just to remind you of the current model.

    You eat too much
    You get fat
    As you get fat you become more insulin resistant
    In order to overcome this resistance you produce more insulin
    Eventually you cannot produce enough insulin, the system ‘burns out’ and you develop type II diabetes
    Where and how can the paradoxical facts be fitted? The answer is that they cannot. Ergo, the model is wrong.

    What are the paradoxical facts? Did you leave them out?
    You produce too much insulin
    This forces your body to store fat
    You become obese
    At a certain point insulin resistance develops to block further weight gain
    This resistance becomes more and more severe until…
    You become diabetic

    Eh, wishful thinking. "I didn't eat too much. My insulin made me fat!" But the fact is that being IR makes it LESS likely that you store fat -- that's one of the things you are resistant to. It's just also possible that you eat more because the appetite satisfying effect of removal of glucose from blood does not kick in.

    The studies I've seen of Pima are interesting, but seem to suggest genetic susceptibility to T2D (which is unsurprising) vs. T2D making one fat.
    This model explains the Pima Indians. Can Sumo wrestlers be fitted into this model?

    If you mean the traditional model, yes -- they are quite active.

    Out of curiosity, why the obsession with diabetes?
  • yarwellyarwell Posts: 10,573Member Member Posts: 10,573Member Member
    It is interesting because the bariatric surgery patients go into hospital with diabetes and come out without it. There's no time for appreciable weight loss, and certainly no exercise. Prof Roy Taylor reckons there's something about the pre-op VLCD diet regime and the fasting on the day of the operation that is part of the story, and is chasing fat in the pancreas and liver via MRI studies.
  • FunkyTobiasFunkyTobias Posts: 1,776Member Member Posts: 1,776Member Member
    Remember what I said about vetting sources. You still need work @GaleHawkins
  • GaleHawkinsGaleHawkins Posts: 7,623Member Member Posts: 7,623Member Member
    shell1005 wrote: »
    It's amazing in Gale's theories that the idea that eating more calories than one's body needs doesn't come into play.

    It's amazing because it is what causes obesity EVERY SINGLE TIME.

    If I was unclear let me restate it is the over eating of carbohydrates and especially processed carbs that leads to weight gains mostly but over eating protein since about half of it can wind up as glucose can be a fating factor unlike fats can be.
  • FunkyTobiasFunkyTobias Posts: 1,776Member Member Posts: 1,776Member Member
    You were perfectly clear, Gale. Still wrong though.
  • GaleHawkinsGaleHawkins Posts: 7,623Member Member Posts: 7,623Member Member
    What do you think people eat to try and triple their body weight by diet?
  • GaleHawkinsGaleHawkins Posts: 7,623Member Member Posts: 7,623Member Member
    shell1005 wrote: »
    What do you think people eat to try and triple their body weight by diet?

    Food Gale. Food.

    Their typical macro of food please?
  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    If you mean sumo wrestlers, they are trying to gain muscle, not just fatten up. And they eat lots of protein and carbs. Average thin Japanese people, including those on the various healthy traditional diets, also ate lots of carbs. Kenyan marathon runners (hint: they don't look much like sumo wrestlers) eat 80-10-10 (the 80 is carbs, not fat). The sumo diet doesn't seem wildly different in theory (it is in the amount of calories and the fact that beer is apparently an important part) from the old standard bro diet of skinless chicken breast, rice, and veg.

    Your idea that one can't get fat from fat is, well, odd. It is true that the standard athletic diet tends to be low fat, although obviously there are exceptions, especially these days, but that's because carbs and protein both have specific roles that are seen as useful (the role of carbs being fuel).
  • 100df100df Posts: 668Member Member Posts: 668Member Member
    I have read that surgery greatly improves a diabetics health before they have had time to lose weight. It makes me wonder if that if they can figure out why maybe they won't have to do such invasive surgery.

    http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/Supplement_2/S361.full
    Studies have shown that return to euglycemia and normal insulin levels occurs within days after surgery, long before any significant weight loss takes place. This fact suggests that weight loss alone is not a sufficient explanation for this improvement. Other possible mechanisms effective in this phenomenon are decreased food intake, partial malabsorption of nutrients, and anatomical alteration of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, which incites changes in the incretin system, affecting, in turn, glucose balance. Better understanding of those mechanisms may bring about a discovery of new treatment modalities for diabetes and obesity
  • FunkyTobiasFunkyTobias Posts: 1,776Member Member Posts: 1,776Member Member
    shell1005 wrote: »
    What do you think people eat to try and triple their body weight by diet?

    Food Gale. Food.

    Their typical macro of food please?

    Most hyper-palatible, easy to overeat foods are high in carbs AND fat (and salt).
  • GaleHawkinsGaleHawkins Posts: 7,623Member Member Posts: 7,623Member Member
    100df wrote: »
    I have read that surgery greatly improves a diabetics health before they have had time to lose weight. It makes me wonder if that if they can figure out why maybe they won't have to do such invasive surgery.

    http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/Supplement_2/S361.full
    Studies have shown that return to euglycemia and normal insulin levels occurs within days after surgery, long before any significant weight loss takes place. This fact suggests that weight loss alone is not a sufficient explanation for this improvement. Other possible mechanisms effective in this phenomenon are decreased food intake, partial malabsorption of nutrients, and anatomical alteration of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, which incites changes in the incretin system, affecting, in turn, glucose balance. Better understanding of those mechanisms may bring about a discovery of new treatment modalities for diabetes and obesity
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    If you mean sumo wrestlers, they are trying to gain muscle, not just fatten up. And they eat lots of protein and carbs. Average thin Japanese people, including those on the various healthy traditional diets, also ate lots of carbs. Kenyan marathon runners (hint: they don't look much like sumo wrestlers) eat 80-10-10 (the 80 is carbs, not fat). The sumo diet doesn't seem wildly different in theory (it is in the amount of calories and the fact that beer is apparently an important part) from the old standard bro diet of skinless chicken breast, rice, and veg.

    Your idea that one can't get fat from fat is, well, odd. It is true that the standard athletic diet tends to be low fat, although obviously there are exceptions, especially these days, but that's because carbs and protein both have specific roles that are seen as useful (the role of carbs being fuel).

    Odd as in the earth is round and not flat?

    Yes carbs may be a fuel source. Over eating carbs over time can cause type 2 diabetes. Over eating fats will not.
  • FunkyTobiasFunkyTobias Posts: 1,776Member Member Posts: 1,776Member Member
    100df wrote: »
    I have read that surgery greatly improves a diabetics health before they have had time to lose weight. It makes me wonder if that if they can figure out why maybe they won't have to do such invasive surgery.

    http://m.care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/Supplement_2/S361.full
    Studies have shown that return to euglycemia and normal insulin levels occurs within days after surgery, long before any significant weight loss takes place. This fact suggests that weight loss alone is not a sufficient explanation for this improvement. Other possible mechanisms effective in this phenomenon are decreased food intake, partial malabsorption of nutrients, and anatomical alteration of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, which incites changes in the incretin system, affecting, in turn, glucose balance. Better understanding of those mechanisms may bring about a discovery of new treatment modalities for diabetes and obesity
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    If you mean sumo wrestlers, they are trying to gain muscle, not just fatten up. And they eat lots of protein and carbs. Average thin Japanese people, including those on the various healthy traditional diets, also ate lots of carbs. Kenyan marathon runners (hint: they don't look much like sumo wrestlers) eat 80-10-10 (the 80 is carbs, not fat). The sumo diet doesn't seem wildly different in theory (it is in the amount of calories and the fact that beer is apparently an important part) from the old standard bro diet of skinless chicken breast, rice, and veg.

    Your idea that one can't get fat from fat is, well, odd. It is true that the standard athletic diet tends to be low fat, although obviously there are exceptions, especially these days, but that's because carbs and protein both have specific roles that are seen as useful (the role of carbs being fuel).

    Odd as in the earth is round and not flat?

    Yes carbs may be a fuel source. Over eating carbs over time can cause type 2 diabetes. Over eating fats will not.

    Stop making things up. Obesity increases risk of T2D, regardless of the macro makeup.
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