Keto and carb source question

lemurcat12

NorthCascades wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

FYI Raspberries are considered low carb in my world. 1 cup is 7 g of net carbs.
An apple, however, is at little higher at 20 g net carbs. You could definitely fit it in to your macros, but contrast that with eating about 6 cups of kale (also 20 g of net carbs)--the nutritional impact is much greater.

I do a 50+ mile bike ride every Saturday. Usually out in the mountains because the scenery is much better. When I get home, I enjoy a smoothie. I blend about 18 oz of frozen raspberries with milk and protein mix. It's delicious, filling, satisfying, nutrient packed, makes my body feel good, and did I mention I enjoy the hell out of it?

So beautiful. Where is that?

Heh, I see liz and I are on the same wavelength.

Maybe here: https://www.nps.gov/noca/index.htm?

If so, I've been around there, my grandfather was from Sedro Woolley and I drove out there after a business trip to Seattle to check it out one year. My parents are now living near Portland, so I hope to do more biking in the PNW.

yarwell

auddii wrote: »

N200lz wrote: »

High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)

Wat?

You can eat ten times as many calories (I'm assuming and not gain weight) as long as you're eating mostly fat?

This was a reference to the amount of calories carried by the body.

If you have 20,000 cals on board of fat, and can access that efficiently, then the endurance runner can ingest less compared to if they were reliant on the 2,000 calorie carbohydrate reserve.

The whole carb preloading and eating while racing thing is based on using carbs for fuel. An 80 kg man at 15% BF is carrying 108,000 calories of fat.

yarwell

Expatmommy79 wrote: »

aqsylvester wrote: »

Expatmommy79 wrote: »

So I am on a mommy group that has a lot of keto gals on it.

1 mommy said she was going to eat a cup of popcorn for 6g of carbs and another mommy said not to as its not keto approved and could kick her out of ketosis.

Which got me wondering...

Purely from a ketosis point of view:

Assuming carbs remain under 20 for the day and other macros are the same, should the source of carbs matter?

Not really, the question is really how high those carbs elevate your blood glucose, also how quickly you burn off that glucose with activity during the day. As blood glucose goes up, ketone production is suppressed. You probably wouldn't want to eat 20 carbs in one sitting for that reason. Fewer amounts of carbs per meal keeps blood sugar lower and instigates fat metabolism. At the same time, don't graze on carbs all day long because then you might not be getting the benefits of sustained fat metabolism--I try to make my the last meal of my day most ketogenic. If you are going to do the popcorn (or any higher carb food), it's wise to do it earlier in the day or before some type of more intense physical activity.

Yet, I would not stress over a cup of popcorn if overall your daily intake of carbohydrates is low. As you soon as your blood sugar corrects itself and your activity begins to deplete you glycogen stores, your body will start breaking down fat again to sustain your energy.

Also, popcorn, being higher in fiber and a whole food, is going to elevate the blood glucose slower than say 6g of bread

But you aren't answering the question.

If a person had 6g of popcorn carbs vs 6g of strawberries carbs or 6g of protein shake, would it kick them out of ketosis? All variables being equal?

All variables aren't the same, which makes the question unanswerable.

The insulin and glucose response to the starch would inhibit ketosis temporarily but 24 calories of carbohydrate would be gone in an hour or two at rest (and faster with activity) and normal service resumed.

lithezebra

I don't think 6 grams of carbs, from any source, will kick anyone out of ketosis. Ketosis is a state in which the enzymes needed for fatty acid metabolism are upregulated. Those enzymes don't disappear just because you ate some popcorn.

lemurcat12

yarwell wrote: »

auddii wrote: »

N200lz wrote: »

High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)

Wat?

You can eat ten times as many calories (I'm assuming and not gain weight) as long as you're eating mostly fat?

This was a reference to the amount of calories carried by the body.

If you have 20,000 cals on board of fat, and can access that efficiently, then the endurance runner can ingest less compared to if they were reliant on the 2,000 calorie carbohydrate reserve.

The whole carb preloading and eating while racing thing is based on using carbs for fuel. An 80 kg man at 15% BF is carrying 108,000 calories of fat.

Beyond a particular level of intensity, whether you are fat-adapted or keto or not, you are going to start relying on carbs, though. One benefit of training to be better fat-adapted (even for people not keto) is that you can affect when that is.

Here are a couple of pieces about it (generally positive): http://www.runnersworld.com/sweat-science/adapting-to-burn-fat-as-fuel and http://www.outsideonline.com/1926266/high-fat-diet-runners

yarwell

Yep, ultra endurance races tend to be fairly low intensity and can hence be fat based. Skinny Kenyans winning marathons are a different point on the curve.

If aerobic fitness is high then fat burning can prevail when an aerobically unfit person like me will be at 90% V O2 MAX.

Training and fat adapted regimes seem to be able to double fat oxidation to over 1 g/min too.

nvmomketo

Expatmommy79 wrote: »

So I am on a mommy group that has a lot of keto gals on it.

1 mommy said she was going to eat a cup of popcorn for 6g of carbs and another mommy said not to as its not keto approved and could kick her out of ketosis.

Which got me wondering...

Purely from a ketosis point of view:

Assuming carbs remain under 20 for the day and other macros are the same, should the source of carbs matter?

I would say probably not but it would depend on the person.

I have insulin resistance, and i also may have physiological IR from being in ketosis for so long. If I eat over 20g of carbs in a day, I am out, or almost out, of ketosis, according to ketostix (which are not always reliable). If I spread my carbs out well and eat them not too late in the day, my ketostix register more ketones and my blood glucose goes down. If i have a 1/2c of nuts in the evening before bed, that is too many carbs for me and my BG is up and ketones are down (or negative if i did it a few days in a row).

This is all for a sedentary person. If i walk, play ball, or do weights, a "high carb" snack like nuts does not effect my BG and ketones as much.

I don't think there are "keto approved" foods. There are some foods that most of us avoid because they give very little bulk or nutritional bang for your buck. I would skip the cup of popcorn in favor of nuts, or porkrinds with a cheese dip if I wanted junk food. besides, the best part of popcorn is the butter and salt on top.

Someone in ketosis could eat some bread, a candy, popcorn or whatever, but it would be a sad little serving and may lead to cravings, which a number of us have found reduced while eating very LCHF. We COULD eat it, but most choose not to. A cup of popcorn seems pretty tiny to me... would that be about 15-25 kernels? Half a tablespoon of unpopped kernels? Not worth it IMO.

lithezebra

Anecdotally speaking, I enjoy my small servings of carbs, and don't notice a difference between a day when I have 20-30 grams net, and a day when I have a full 60 grams net. Maybe that's because I don't have 60 grams every day. Also, I'm pretty active. I wouldn't have popcorn. I'd have black beans, or a half serving of oatmeal with fruit, foods with complex polysaccharides, resistant starch, and fiber. (Though corn may have resistant starch too. I just don't like popcorn all that much).

Springfield1970

aqsylvester wrote: »

moe0303 wrote: »

moe0303 wrote: »

N200lz wrote: »

High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)

The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.

or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?

I know that was my experience with distance running when I switched to the ketogenic diet. Instead of hitting that wall toward the end of my run, feeling like I was pushing so hard those last few miles, like my reserves were just about empty, that feeling completely disappeared. There was no wall, there was no fatigue or hunger afterward. I literally felt no signal to stop and rest except maybe my joints getting worn out. It really amazed me. I have seen evidence that fat metabolism (being in ketosis) actually increases the number of mitochondria in your cells. Apparently fat metabolism is easier for the mitochondria, it creates less oxidative stress, and it inhibits cellular apoptosis (programmed death). Most of this research is related to fasting and increased longevity in animal studies. However it works, my experience is that it works incredibly well.

It can't work that well if all the olympic athletes in the world (who's sport is based in the high heart rate zones) are still eating a high carb diet.

Yes, it's a good idea to expand your aerobic heart rate zones, and you could burn body fat fast enough to do this, ie for endurance, iron man, anaerobic sports like lifting, throwing, shooting etc. but for anything that relies on performance or training above lactate threshold, Keto won't work.