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Keto and carb source question
Expatmommy79
Posts: 940 Member
in Debate Club
So I am on a mommy group that has a lot of keto gals on it.
1 mommy said she was going to eat a cup of popcorn for 6g of carbs and another mommy said not to as its not keto approved and could kick her out of ketosis.
Which got me wondering...
Purely from a ketosis point of view:
Assuming carbs remain under 20 for the day and other macros are the same, should the source of carbs matter?
1 mommy said she was going to eat a cup of popcorn for 6g of carbs and another mommy said not to as its not keto approved and could kick her out of ketosis.
Which got me wondering...
Purely from a ketosis point of view:
Assuming carbs remain under 20 for the day and other macros are the same, should the source of carbs matter?
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Replies
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Expatmommy79 wrote: »So I am on a mommy group that has a lot of keto gals on it.
1 mommy said she was going to eat a cup of popcorn for 6g of carbs and another mommy said not to as its not keto approved and could kick her out of ketosis.
Which got me wondering...
Purely from a ketosis point of view:
Assuming carbs remain under 20 for the day and other macros are the same, should the source of carbs matter?
Not really, the question is really how high those carbs elevate your blood glucose, also how quickly you burn off that glucose with activity during the day. As blood glucose goes up, ketone production is suppressed. You probably wouldn't want to eat 20 carbs in one sitting for that reason. Fewer amounts of carbs per meal keeps blood sugar lower and instigates fat metabolism. At the same time, don't graze on carbs all day long because then you might not be getting the benefits of sustained fat metabolism--I try to make my last meal of the day the most ketogenic. If you are going to do the popcorn (or any higher carb food), it's wise to do it earlier in the day or before some type of more intense physical activity.
Yet, I would not stress over a cup of popcorn if overall your daily intake of carbohydrates is low. As you soon as your blood sugar corrects itself and your activity begins to deplete you glycogen stores, your body will start breaking down fat again to sustain your energy.
Also, popcorn, being higher in fiber and a whole food, is going to elevate the blood glucose slower than say 6g of bread
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aqsylvester wrote: »Expatmommy79 wrote: »So I am on a mommy group that has a lot of keto gals on it.
1 mommy said she was going to eat a cup of popcorn for 6g of carbs and another mommy said not to as its not keto approved and could kick her out of ketosis.
Which got me wondering...
Purely from a ketosis point of view:
Assuming carbs remain under 20 for the day and other macros are the same, should the source of carbs matter?
Not really, the question is really how high those carbs elevate your blood glucose, also how quickly you burn off that glucose with activity during the day. As blood glucose goes up, ketone production is suppressed. You probably wouldn't want to eat 20 carbs in one sitting for that reason. Fewer amounts of carbs per meal keeps blood sugar lower and instigates fat metabolism. At the same time, don't graze on carbs all day long because then you might not be getting the benefits of sustained fat metabolism--I try to make my the last meal of my day most ketogenic. If you are going to do the popcorn (or any higher carb food), it's wise to do it earlier in the day or before some type of more intense physical activity.
Yet, I would not stress over a cup of popcorn if overall your daily intake of carbohydrates is low. As you soon as your blood sugar corrects itself and your activity begins to deplete you glycogen stores, your body will start breaking down fat again to sustain your energy.
Also, popcorn, being higher in fiber and a whole food, is going to elevate the blood glucose slower than say 6g of bread
But you aren't answering the question.
If a person had 6g of popcorn carbs vs 6g of strawberries carbs or 6g of protein shake, would it kick them out of ketosis? All variables being equal?0 -
Expatmommy79 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »Expatmommy79 wrote: »So I am on a mommy group that has a lot of keto gals on it.
1 mommy said she was going to eat a cup of popcorn for 6g of carbs and another mommy said not to as its not keto approved and could kick her out of ketosis.
Which got me wondering...
Purely from a ketosis point of view:
Assuming carbs remain under 20 for the day and other macros are the same, should the source of carbs matter?
Not really, the question is really how high those carbs elevate your blood glucose, also how quickly you burn off that glucose with activity during the day. As blood glucose goes up, ketone production is suppressed. You probably wouldn't want to eat 20 carbs in one sitting for that reason. Fewer amounts of carbs per meal keeps blood sugar lower and instigates fat metabolism. At the same time, don't graze on carbs all day long because then you might not be getting the benefits of sustained fat metabolism--I try to make my the last meal of my day most ketogenic. If you are going to do the popcorn (or any higher carb food), it's wise to do it earlier in the day or before some type of more intense physical activity.
Yet, I would not stress over a cup of popcorn if overall your daily intake of carbohydrates is low. As you soon as your blood sugar corrects itself and your activity begins to deplete you glycogen stores, your body will start breaking down fat again to sustain your energy.
Also, popcorn, being higher in fiber and a whole food, is going to elevate the blood glucose slower than say 6g of bread
But you aren't answering the question.
If a person had 6g of popcorn carbs vs 6g of strawberries carbs or 6g of protein shake, would it kick them out of ketosis? All variables being equal?
Is fiber included as one of the hypothetically equal variables?0 -
Let's say net carbs and gross carbs are the same...for comparison purposes1
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Didn't someone post that they could eat a very high and fast absorbing carb source (gu) because they were doing endurance racing and remain in ketosis? I would think it depends on activity level and utilization of the carbs, not necessarily the source of the carbs.
*Said by someone who's never attempted to put myself into ketosis.0 -
Expatmommy79 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »Expatmommy79 wrote: »So I am on a mommy group that has a lot of keto gals on it.
1 mommy said she was going to eat a cup of popcorn for 6g of carbs and another mommy said not to as its not keto approved and could kick her out of ketosis.
Which got me wondering...
Purely from a ketosis point of view:
Assuming carbs remain under 20 for the day and other macros are the same, should the source of carbs matter?
Not really, the question is really how high those carbs elevate your blood glucose, also how quickly you burn off that glucose with activity during the day. As blood glucose goes up, ketone production is suppressed. You probably wouldn't want to eat 20 carbs in one sitting for that reason. Fewer amounts of carbs per meal keeps blood sugar lower and instigates fat metabolism. At the same time, don't graze on carbs all day long because then you might not be getting the benefits of sustained fat metabolism--I try to make my the last meal of my day most ketogenic. If you are going to do the popcorn (or any higher carb food), it's wise to do it earlier in the day or before some type of more intense physical activity.
Yet, I would not stress over a cup of popcorn if overall your daily intake of carbohydrates is low. As you soon as your blood sugar corrects itself and your activity begins to deplete you glycogen stores, your body will start breaking down fat again to sustain your energy.
Also, popcorn, being higher in fiber and a whole food, is going to elevate the blood glucose slower than say 6g of bread
But you aren't answering the question.
If a person had 6g of popcorn carbs vs 6g of strawberries carbs or 6g of protein shake, would it kick them out of ketosis? All variables being equal?
Sorry, I tried to answer a best I could. It just might kick them out while their blood glucose is up, but as the blood glucose level is corrected and they begin to deplete their glucose stores, they will switch back to fat metabolism and start making ketones.
Everyone's digestion, physiology, etc. is so different, so there's no way to be sure whether or not it will kick them out. 6 grams seems like such a small amount to me though, and I would think it wouldn't spike their blood glucose much at all. However, it depends on their health. If she wants the popcorn, but is concerned, she could always eat it before some kind of intense activity.
I have heard that the average person carries about 4 grams of glucose around in their blood all the time. When you think about it that way, it doesn't take much to replenish or elevate this amount quickly with a snack.
I guess the main thing I'd tell my friend is to pay attention to how she feels after the popcorn. A little while later, does she feel more bloated or hungry or hungry for carbohydrates? Or can she tolerate it and be satisfied on the ketogenic foods for the rest of the day? Maybe even see if she wants to check her blood sugar after her meal. When I first started keto, I used to keep track of my blood sugar regularly to see what it was before, during, and after certain foods. It was how I learned that sugar alcohols were not keto-friendly for me in least.0 -
Didn't someone post that they could eat a very high and fast absorbing carb source (gu) because they were doing endurance racing and remain in ketosis? I would think it depends on activity level and utilization of the carbs, not necessarily the source of the carbs.
*Said by someone who's never attempted to put myself into ketosis.
I think activity would also fall into the "being equal" part of the question.
I don't think it (carb source) would matter, but I don't have any references on hand at the moment.0 -
Didn't someone post that they could eat a very high and fast absorbing carb source (gu) because they were doing endurance racing and remain in ketosis? I would think it depends on activity level and utilization of the carbs, not necessarily the source of the carbs.
*Said by someone who's never attempted to put myself into ketosis.
I think activity would also fall into the "being equal" part of the question.
I don't think it (carb source) would matter, but I don't have any references on hand at the moment.
Ah, I guess my point was if someone could remain in ketosis while eating essentially pure sugar made to raise blood sugar quickly (while doing the energy to compensate it), that seems to dispute that eating popcorn would always kick you out of ketosis.0 -
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High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)0
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High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
Wat?
You can eat ten times as many calories (I'm assuming and not gain weight) as long as you're eating mostly fat?0 -
I believe the argument is that you have more fat stored to use for fuel (calories) than you can store carbs (glycogen).
Problem is that above a certain intensity you aren't going to be able to access enough quickly enough for fuel, however.
I keep reading about (or talking to people) experimenting with improving their bodies' ability to access the fat at higher intensity levels, though, to maximize that potential -- this is not limited to people on keto, and of course everyone uses fat as fuel to varying degrees depending on diet and what they are doing.1 -
High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
Wait, wut?
Are you really saying you can eat 10 times as many calories on keto?0 -
The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
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or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?
The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
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or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?
The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
I know that was my experience with distance running when I switched to the ketogenic diet. Instead of hitting that wall toward the end of my run, feeling like I was pushing so hard those last few miles, like my reserves were just about empty, that feeling completely disappeared. There was no wall, there was no fatigue or hunger afterward. I literally felt no signal to stop and rest except maybe my joints getting worn out. It really amazed me. I have seen evidence that fat metabolism (being in ketosis) actually increases the number of mitochondria in your cells. Apparently fat metabolism is easier for the mitochondria, it creates less oxidative stress, and it inhibits cellular apoptosis (programmed death). Most of this research is related to fasting and increased longevity in animal studies. However it works, my experience is that it works incredibly well.2 -
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aqsylvester wrote: »
or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?
The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
I know that was my experience with distance running when I switched to the ketogenic diet. Instead of hitting that wall toward the end of my run, feeling like I was pushing so hard those last few miles, like my reserves were just about empty, that feeling completely disappeared. There was no wall, there was no fatigue or hunger afterward. I literally felt no signal to stop and rest except maybe my joints getting worn out. It really amazed me. I have seen evidence that fat metabolism (being in ketosis) actually increases the number of mitochondria in your cells. Apparently fat metabolism is easier for the mitochondria, it creates less oxidative stress, and it inhibits cellular apoptosis (programmed death). Most of this research is related to fasting and increased longevity in animal studies. However it works, my experience is that it works incredibly well.
Just FYI to others in the thread. My experience was the opposite. I can run fueled by carbs and could easily run a half marathon without fueling. Felt great afterwards.
When I am running keto...anything after mile 7 or 8 and I hit a wall. Everything feels like garbage and I want to stop.
Just wanted to share my anecdotal evidence to contrast with what was shared above. I'll also say that the running group I frequent...who almost everyone in it has completed a marathon (brats, right?) that carbs are absolutely the ideal fuel for them.
I've been running since 8th grade and got most of my first nutrition advice from Jeff Galloway's book. He was all about eating carbs and limiting fat. I remember his rationale. More calories per gram in fat, it gets stored immediately while you're body uses more energy to breakdown and store the protein and carbohydrates. Seemed reasonable to me at the time (as I knew very little then about nutrition), but it's outdated advice now. Running on fat is very different; however, it can take weeks to get over the keto flu and get fat-adapted enough to experience it fully. Running or any kind of exercise in early ketosis is very difficult.1 -
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aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »
or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?
The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
I know that was my experience with distance running when I switched to the ketogenic diet. Instead of hitting that wall toward the end of my run, feeling like I was pushing so hard those last few miles, like my reserves were just about empty, that feeling completely disappeared. There was no wall, there was no fatigue or hunger afterward. I literally felt no signal to stop and rest except maybe my joints getting worn out. It really amazed me. I have seen evidence that fat metabolism (being in ketosis) actually increases the number of mitochondria in your cells. Apparently fat metabolism is easier for the mitochondria, it creates less oxidative stress, and it inhibits cellular apoptosis (programmed death). Most of this research is related to fasting and increased longevity in animal studies. However it works, my experience is that it works incredibly well.
Just FYI to others in the thread. My experience was the opposite. I can run fueled by carbs and could easily run a half marathon without fueling. Felt great afterwards.
When I am running keto...anything after mile 7 or 8 and I hit a wall. Everything feels like garbage and I want to stop.
Just wanted to share my anecdotal evidence to contrast with what was shared above. I'll also say that the running group I frequent...who almost everyone in it has completed a marathon (brats, right?) that carbs are absolutely the ideal fuel for them.
I've been running since 8th grade and got most of my first nutrition advice from Jeff Galloway's book. He was all about eating carbs and limiting fat. I remember his rationale. More calories per gram in fat, it gets stored immediately while you're body uses more energy to breakdown and store the protein and carbohydrates. Seemed reasonable to me at the time (as I knew very little then about nutrition), but it's outdated advice now. Running on fat is very different; however, it can take weeks to get over the keto flu and get fat-adapted enough to experience it fully. Running or any kind of exercise in early ketosis is very difficult.
LOL. I was 6 months keto when I was running on fat.
LOL. I was probably 2 months in at that point. Over 3 yrs later and still going strong. Last time I timed anything, I ran 3 miles in 21 min. I know that's faster than I ran 3 miles in high school, so something is working for me
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aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »
or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?
The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
I know that was my experience with distance running when I switched to the ketogenic diet. Instead of hitting that wall toward the end of my run, feeling like I was pushing so hard those last few miles, like my reserves were just about empty, that feeling completely disappeared. There was no wall, there was no fatigue or hunger afterward. I literally felt no signal to stop and rest except maybe my joints getting worn out. It really amazed me. I have seen evidence that fat metabolism (being in ketosis) actually increases the number of mitochondria in your cells. Apparently fat metabolism is easier for the mitochondria, it creates less oxidative stress, and it inhibits cellular apoptosis (programmed death). Most of this research is related to fasting and increased longevity in animal studies. However it works, my experience is that it works incredibly well.
Just FYI to others in the thread. My experience was the opposite. I can run fueled by carbs and could easily run a half marathon without fueling. Felt great afterwards.
When I am running keto...anything after mile 7 or 8 and I hit a wall. Everything feels like garbage and I want to stop.
Just wanted to share my anecdotal evidence to contrast with what was shared above. I'll also say that the running group I frequent...who almost everyone in it has completed a marathon (brats, right?) that carbs are absolutely the ideal fuel for them.
I've been running since 8th grade and got most of my first nutrition advice from Jeff Galloway's book. He was all about eating carbs and limiting fat. I remember his rationale. More calories per gram in fat, it gets stored immediately while you're body uses more energy to breakdown and store the protein and carbohydrates. Seemed reasonable to me at the time (as I knew very little then about nutrition), but it's outdated advice now. Running on fat is very different; however, it can take weeks to get over the keto flu and get fat-adapted enough to experience it fully. Running or any kind of exercise in early ketosis is very difficult.
LOL. I was 6 months keto when I was running on fat.
LOL. I was probably 2 months in at that point. Over 3 yrs later and still going strong. Last time I timed anything, I ran 3 miles in 21 min. I know that's faster than I ran 3 miles in high school, so something is working for me
That's great. Doesn't change how carb running is absolutely better for me and keto running for longer distances gets me to hit a wall. Most serious runners I know....agree, but glad keto running works for you.
In my experience, most serious runners as well as most people have no idea about the benefits of ketosis let alone what it is.0 -
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aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »
or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?
The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
I know that was my experience with distance running when I switched to the ketogenic diet. Instead of hitting that wall toward the end of my run, feeling like I was pushing so hard those last few miles, like my reserves were just about empty, that feeling completely disappeared. There was no wall, there was no fatigue or hunger afterward. I literally felt no signal to stop and rest except maybe my joints getting worn out. It really amazed me. I have seen evidence that fat metabolism (being in ketosis) actually increases the number of mitochondria in your cells. Apparently fat metabolism is easier for the mitochondria, it creates less oxidative stress, and it inhibits cellular apoptosis (programmed death). Most of this research is related to fasting and increased longevity in animal studies. However it works, my experience is that it works incredibly well.
Just FYI to others in the thread. My experience was the opposite. I can run fueled by carbs and could easily run a half marathon without fueling. Felt great afterwards.
When I am running keto...anything after mile 7 or 8 and I hit a wall. Everything feels like garbage and I want to stop.
Just wanted to share my anecdotal evidence to contrast with what was shared above. I'll also say that the running group I frequent...who almost everyone in it has completed a marathon (brats, right?) that carbs are absolutely the ideal fuel for them.
I've been running since 8th grade and got most of my first nutrition advice from Jeff Galloway's book. He was all about eating carbs and limiting fat. I remember his rationale. More calories per gram in fat, it gets stored immediately while you're body uses more energy to breakdown and store the protein and carbohydrates. Seemed reasonable to me at the time (as I knew very little then about nutrition), but it's outdated advice now. Running on fat is very different; however, it can take weeks to get over the keto flu and get fat-adapted enough to experience it fully. Running or any kind of exercise in early ketosis is very difficult.
LOL. I was 6 months keto when I was running on fat.
LOL. I was probably 2 months in at that point. Over 3 yrs later and still going strong. Last time I timed anything, I ran 3 miles in 21 min. I know that's faster than I ran 3 miles in high school, so something is working for me
That's great. Doesn't change how carb running is absolutely better for me and keto running for longer distances gets me to hit a wall. Most serious runners I know....agree, but glad keto running works for you.
In my experience, most serious runners as well as most people have no idea about the benefits of ketosis let alone what it is.
I see no benefit to keto especially for long distance running. I found it quite painful.0 -
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aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »
or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?
The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
I know that was my experience with distance running when I switched to the ketogenic diet. Instead of hitting that wall toward the end of my run, feeling like I was pushing so hard those last few miles, like my reserves were just about empty, that feeling completely disappeared. There was no wall, there was no fatigue or hunger afterward. I literally felt no signal to stop and rest except maybe my joints getting worn out. It really amazed me. I have seen evidence that fat metabolism (being in ketosis) actually increases the number of mitochondria in your cells. Apparently fat metabolism is easier for the mitochondria, it creates less oxidative stress, and it inhibits cellular apoptosis (programmed death). Most of this research is related to fasting and increased longevity in animal studies. However it works, my experience is that it works incredibly well.
Just FYI to others in the thread. My experience was the opposite. I can run fueled by carbs and could easily run a half marathon without fueling. Felt great afterwards.
When I am running keto...anything after mile 7 or 8 and I hit a wall. Everything feels like garbage and I want to stop.
Just wanted to share my anecdotal evidence to contrast with what was shared above. I'll also say that the running group I frequent...who almost everyone in it has completed a marathon (brats, right?) that carbs are absolutely the ideal fuel for them.
I've been running since 8th grade and got most of my first nutrition advice from Jeff Galloway's book. He was all about eating carbs and limiting fat. I remember his rationale. More calories per gram in fat, it gets stored immediately while you're body uses more energy to breakdown and store the protein and carbohydrates. Seemed reasonable to me at the time (as I knew very little then about nutrition), but it's outdated advice now. Running on fat is very different; however, it can take weeks to get over the keto flu and get fat-adapted enough to experience it fully. Running or any kind of exercise in early ketosis is very difficult.
LOL. I was 6 months keto when I was running on fat.
LOL. I was probably 2 months in at that point. Over 3 yrs later and still going strong. Last time I timed anything, I ran 3 miles in 21 min. I know that's faster than I ran 3 miles in high school, so something is working for me
That's great. Doesn't change how carb running is absolutely better for me and keto running for longer distances gets me to hit a wall. Most serious runners I know....agree, but glad keto running works for you.
In my experience, most serious runners as well as most people have no idea about the benefits of ketosis let alone what it is.
You and my experience would be different then. I enjoy being around curious and educated people. And those who run 20 to 40 miles a week would be people who I would listen to about their experiences. But different strokes for different folks. I'm also incredibly knowledgeable about ketosis and my experience is the same as those runners about the preferred fuel. It's fine for short miles, but not for anything with decent mileage, etc. You mentioned 3 miles in your above post...exactly.
Interesting. I recently read a spread in Runners World where a distance runner experimented with low carb. She had the exact same experience as me: sustained energy with no wall. She gave it up afterward though because the diet was too restrictive for her, but her experience and writing seemed pretty unbiased.
Here ya go!
http://www.runnersworld.com/diet/can-eating-more-fat-make-you-a-better-runner
Her words:
I loved the steady supply of energy that fat adaptation gave me, and I’m the leanest I’ve been in several years. But I missed drinking beers with friends and polishing off midnight pizzas with my husband. I hated feeling guilty about grapes. And I pined for cake. A lot.0 -
Expatmommy79 wrote: »Let's say net carbs and gross carbs are the same...for comparison purposes
@Expatmommy79 a carb is a carb when it comes to nutritional ketosis based on the literature and being in a state of nutritional ketosis most of the time for the past 1.5 years. The main thing is to keep the carbs <50 grams daily and of course to keep protein on the low side of medium and make up the lost carbs/protein with non grain fat sources.
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aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »
or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?
The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
I know that was my experience with distance running when I switched to the ketogenic diet. Instead of hitting that wall toward the end of my run, feeling like I was pushing so hard those last few miles, like my reserves were just about empty, that feeling completely disappeared. There was no wall, there was no fatigue or hunger afterward. I literally felt no signal to stop and rest except maybe my joints getting worn out. It really amazed me. I have seen evidence that fat metabolism (being in ketosis) actually increases the number of mitochondria in your cells. Apparently fat metabolism is easier for the mitochondria, it creates less oxidative stress, and it inhibits cellular apoptosis (programmed death). Most of this research is related to fasting and increased longevity in animal studies. However it works, my experience is that it works incredibly well.
Just FYI to others in the thread. My experience was the opposite. I can run fueled by carbs and could easily run a half marathon without fueling. Felt great afterwards.
When I am running keto...anything after mile 7 or 8 and I hit a wall. Everything feels like garbage and I want to stop.
Just wanted to share my anecdotal evidence to contrast with what was shared above. I'll also say that the running group I frequent...who almost everyone in it has completed a marathon (brats, right?) that carbs are absolutely the ideal fuel for them.
I've been running since 8th grade and got most of my first nutrition advice from Jeff Galloway's book. He was all about eating carbs and limiting fat. I remember his rationale. More calories per gram in fat, it gets stored immediately while you're body uses more energy to breakdown and store the protein and carbohydrates. Seemed reasonable to me at the time (as I knew very little then about nutrition), but it's outdated advice now. Running on fat is very different; however, it can take weeks to get over the keto flu and get fat-adapted enough to experience it fully. Running or any kind of exercise in early ketosis is very difficult.
LOL. I was 6 months keto when I was running on fat.
LOL. I was probably 2 months in at that point. Over 3 yrs later and still going strong. Last time I timed anything, I ran 3 miles in 21 min. I know that's faster than I ran 3 miles in high school, so something is working for me
That's great. Doesn't change how carb running is absolutely better for me and keto running for longer distances gets me to hit a wall. Most serious runners I know....agree, but glad keto running works for you.
In my experience, most serious runners as well as most people have no idea about the benefits of ketosis let alone what it is.
You and my experience would be different then. I enjoy being around curious and educated people. And those who run 20 to 40 miles a week would be people who I would listen to about their experiences. But different strokes for different folks. I'm also incredibly knowledgeable about ketosis and my experience is the same as those runners about the preferred fuel. It's fine for short miles, but not for anything with decent mileage, etc. You mentioned 3 miles in your above post...exactly.
Interesting. I recently read a spread in Runners World where a distance runner experimented with low carb. She had the exact same experience as me: sustained energy with no wall. She gave it up afterward though because the diet was too restrictive for her, but her experience and writing seemed pretty unbiased.
Here ya go!
http://www.runnersworld.com/diet/can-eating-more-fat-make-you-a-better-runner
Her words:
I loved the steady supply of energy that fat adaptation gave me, and I’m the leanest I’ve been in several years. But I missed drinking beers with friends and polishing off midnight pizzas with my husband. I hated feeling guilty about grapes. And I pined for cake. A lot.
That's great for her and you. I experienced quite a wall...as did another poster in this thread. I don't mind keto workouts for short intensity or for shorter distances, but longer distances it is really not optimal. Not sure why you feel the need to poo poo my experience. It is just as anecdotal as yours and the women in that article. Keto on and let others do what works best for them when it comes to fueling their workouts, mkay?
Hmm, sorry, not sure where you got the poo poo vibes. Just sharing the knowledge like you. I don't think I actually said anything at all about you.1
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