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Keto and carb source question

Expatmommy79Expatmommy79 Posts: 941Member, Premium Member Posts: 941Member, Premium Member
So I am on a mommy group that has a lot of keto gals on it.

1 mommy said she was going to eat a cup of popcorn for 6g of carbs and another mommy said not to as its not keto approved and could kick her out of ketosis.

Which got me wondering...

Purely from a ketosis point of view:

Assuming carbs remain under 20 for the day and other macros are the same, should the source of carbs matter?

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Replies

  • CrisseydaCrisseyda Posts: 532Member Member Posts: 532Member Member
    So I am on a mommy group that has a lot of keto gals on it.

    1 mommy said she was going to eat a cup of popcorn for 6g of carbs and another mommy said not to as its not keto approved and could kick her out of ketosis.

    Which got me wondering...

    Purely from a ketosis point of view:

    Assuming carbs remain under 20 for the day and other macros are the same, should the source of carbs matter?

    Not really, the question is really how high those carbs elevate your blood glucose, also how quickly you burn off that glucose with activity during the day. As blood glucose goes up, ketone production is suppressed. You probably wouldn't want to eat 20 carbs in one sitting for that reason. Fewer amounts of carbs per meal keeps blood sugar lower and instigates fat metabolism. At the same time, don't graze on carbs all day long because then you might not be getting the benefits of sustained fat metabolism--I try to make my last meal of the day the most ketogenic. If you are going to do the popcorn (or any higher carb food), it's wise to do it earlier in the day or before some type of more intense physical activity.

    Yet, I would not stress over a cup of popcorn if overall your daily intake of carbohydrates is low. As you soon as your blood sugar corrects itself and your activity begins to deplete you glycogen stores, your body will start breaking down fat again to sustain your energy.

    Also, popcorn, being higher in fiber and a whole food, is going to elevate the blood glucose slower than say 6g of bread :)
    edited April 2016
  • Expatmommy79Expatmommy79 Posts: 941Member, Premium Member Posts: 941Member, Premium Member
    So I am on a mommy group that has a lot of keto gals on it.

    1 mommy said she was going to eat a cup of popcorn for 6g of carbs and another mommy said not to as its not keto approved and could kick her out of ketosis.

    Which got me wondering...

    Purely from a ketosis point of view:

    Assuming carbs remain under 20 for the day and other macros are the same, should the source of carbs matter?

    Not really, the question is really how high those carbs elevate your blood glucose, also how quickly you burn off that glucose with activity during the day. As blood glucose goes up, ketone production is suppressed. You probably wouldn't want to eat 20 carbs in one sitting for that reason. Fewer amounts of carbs per meal keeps blood sugar lower and instigates fat metabolism. At the same time, don't graze on carbs all day long because then you might not be getting the benefits of sustained fat metabolism--I try to make my the last meal of my day most ketogenic. If you are going to do the popcorn (or any higher carb food), it's wise to do it earlier in the day or before some type of more intense physical activity.

    Yet, I would not stress over a cup of popcorn if overall your daily intake of carbohydrates is low. As you soon as your blood sugar corrects itself and your activity begins to deplete you glycogen stores, your body will start breaking down fat again to sustain your energy.

    Also, popcorn, being higher in fiber and a whole food, is going to elevate the blood glucose slower than say 6g of bread :)

    But you aren't answering the question.

    If a person had 6g of popcorn carbs vs 6g of strawberries carbs or 6g of protein shake, would it kick them out of ketosis? All variables being equal?
  • moe0303moe0303 Posts: 933Member Member Posts: 933Member Member
    So I am on a mommy group that has a lot of keto gals on it.

    1 mommy said she was going to eat a cup of popcorn for 6g of carbs and another mommy said not to as its not keto approved and could kick her out of ketosis.

    Which got me wondering...

    Purely from a ketosis point of view:

    Assuming carbs remain under 20 for the day and other macros are the same, should the source of carbs matter?

    Not really, the question is really how high those carbs elevate your blood glucose, also how quickly you burn off that glucose with activity during the day. As blood glucose goes up, ketone production is suppressed. You probably wouldn't want to eat 20 carbs in one sitting for that reason. Fewer amounts of carbs per meal keeps blood sugar lower and instigates fat metabolism. At the same time, don't graze on carbs all day long because then you might not be getting the benefits of sustained fat metabolism--I try to make my the last meal of my day most ketogenic. If you are going to do the popcorn (or any higher carb food), it's wise to do it earlier in the day or before some type of more intense physical activity.

    Yet, I would not stress over a cup of popcorn if overall your daily intake of carbohydrates is low. As you soon as your blood sugar corrects itself and your activity begins to deplete you glycogen stores, your body will start breaking down fat again to sustain your energy.

    Also, popcorn, being higher in fiber and a whole food, is going to elevate the blood glucose slower than say 6g of bread :)

    But you aren't answering the question.

    If a person had 6g of popcorn carbs vs 6g of strawberries carbs or 6g of protein shake, would it kick them out of ketosis? All variables being equal?

    Is fiber included as one of the hypothetically equal variables?
    edited April 2016
  • Expatmommy79Expatmommy79 Posts: 941Member, Premium Member Posts: 941Member, Premium Member
    Let's say net carbs and gross carbs are the same...for comparison purposes
  • auddiiauddii Posts: 15,410Member Member Posts: 15,410Member Member
    Didn't someone post that they could eat a very high and fast absorbing carb source (gu) because they were doing endurance racing and remain in ketosis? I would think it depends on activity level and utilization of the carbs, not necessarily the source of the carbs.

    *Said by someone who's never attempted to put myself into ketosis.
  • CrisseydaCrisseyda Posts: 532Member Member Posts: 532Member Member
    So I am on a mommy group that has a lot of keto gals on it.

    1 mommy said she was going to eat a cup of popcorn for 6g of carbs and another mommy said not to as its not keto approved and could kick her out of ketosis.

    Which got me wondering...

    Purely from a ketosis point of view:

    Assuming carbs remain under 20 for the day and other macros are the same, should the source of carbs matter?

    Not really, the question is really how high those carbs elevate your blood glucose, also how quickly you burn off that glucose with activity during the day. As blood glucose goes up, ketone production is suppressed. You probably wouldn't want to eat 20 carbs in one sitting for that reason. Fewer amounts of carbs per meal keeps blood sugar lower and instigates fat metabolism. At the same time, don't graze on carbs all day long because then you might not be getting the benefits of sustained fat metabolism--I try to make my the last meal of my day most ketogenic. If you are going to do the popcorn (or any higher carb food), it's wise to do it earlier in the day or before some type of more intense physical activity.

    Yet, I would not stress over a cup of popcorn if overall your daily intake of carbohydrates is low. As you soon as your blood sugar corrects itself and your activity begins to deplete you glycogen stores, your body will start breaking down fat again to sustain your energy.

    Also, popcorn, being higher in fiber and a whole food, is going to elevate the blood glucose slower than say 6g of bread :)

    But you aren't answering the question.

    If a person had 6g of popcorn carbs vs 6g of strawberries carbs or 6g of protein shake, would it kick them out of ketosis? All variables being equal?

    Sorry, I tried to answer a best I could. It just might kick them out while their blood glucose is up, but as the blood glucose level is corrected and they begin to deplete their glucose stores, they will switch back to fat metabolism and start making ketones.

    Everyone's digestion, physiology, etc. is so different, so there's no way to be sure whether or not it will kick them out. 6 grams seems like such a small amount to me though, and I would think it wouldn't spike their blood glucose much at all. However, it depends on their health. If she wants the popcorn, but is concerned, she could always eat it before some kind of intense activity.

    I have heard that the average person carries about 4 grams of glucose around in their blood all the time. When you think about it that way, it doesn't take much to replenish or elevate this amount quickly with a snack.

    I guess the main thing I'd tell my friend is to pay attention to how she feels after the popcorn. A little while later, does she feel more bloated or hungry or hungry for carbohydrates? Or can she tolerate it and be satisfied on the ketogenic foods for the rest of the day? Maybe even see if she wants to check her blood sugar after her meal. When I first started keto, I used to keep track of my blood sugar regularly to see what it was before, during, and after certain foods. It was how I learned that sugar alcohols were not keto-friendly for me in least.
    edited April 2016
  • moe0303moe0303 Posts: 933Member Member Posts: 933Member Member
    auddii wrote: »
    Didn't someone post that they could eat a very high and fast absorbing carb source (gu) because they were doing endurance racing and remain in ketosis? I would think it depends on activity level and utilization of the carbs, not necessarily the source of the carbs.

    *Said by someone who's never attempted to put myself into ketosis.

    I think activity would also fall into the "being equal" part of the question.

    I don't think it (carb source) would matter, but I don't have any references on hand at the moment.
    edited April 2016
  • auddiiauddii Posts: 15,410Member Member Posts: 15,410Member Member
    moe0303 wrote: »
    auddii wrote: »
    Didn't someone post that they could eat a very high and fast absorbing carb source (gu) because they were doing endurance racing and remain in ketosis? I would think it depends on activity level and utilization of the carbs, not necessarily the source of the carbs.

    *Said by someone who's never attempted to put myself into ketosis.

    I think activity would also fall into the "being equal" part of the question.

    I don't think it (carb source) would matter, but I don't have any references on hand at the moment.

    Ah, I guess my point was if someone could remain in ketosis while eating essentially pure sugar made to raise blood sugar quickly (while doing the energy to compensate it), that seems to dispute that eating popcorn would always kick you out of ketosis.
  • N200lzN200lz Posts: 134Member Member Posts: 134Member Member
    High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
  • auddiiauddii Posts: 15,410Member Member Posts: 15,410Member Member
    N200lz wrote: »
    High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)

    Wat?

    You can eat ten times as many calories (I'm assuming and not gain weight) as long as you're eating mostly fat?
  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    I believe the argument is that you have more fat stored to use for fuel (calories) than you can store carbs (glycogen).

    Problem is that above a certain intensity you aren't going to be able to access enough quickly enough for fuel, however.

    I keep reading about (or talking to people) experimenting with improving their bodies' ability to access the fat at higher intensity levels, though, to maximize that potential -- this is not limited to people on keto, and of course everyone uses fat as fuel to varying degrees depending on diet and what they are doing.
    edited April 2016
  • tincanonastringtincanonastring Posts: 3,969Member Member Posts: 3,969Member Member
    N200lz wrote: »
    High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)

    Wait, wut?

    Are you really saying you can eat 10 times as many calories on keto?
  • moe0303moe0303 Posts: 933Member Member Posts: 933Member Member
    N200lz wrote: »
    High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
    The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.

    edited April 2016
  • moe0303moe0303 Posts: 933Member Member Posts: 933Member Member
    moe0303 wrote: »
    N200lz wrote: »
    High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
    The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.
    or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?
  • CrisseydaCrisseyda Posts: 532Member Member Posts: 532Member Member
    moe0303 wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    N200lz wrote: »
    High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
    The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.
    or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?

    I know that was my experience with distance running when I switched to the ketogenic diet. Instead of hitting that wall toward the end of my run, feeling like I was pushing so hard those last few miles, like my reserves were just about empty, that feeling completely disappeared. There was no wall, there was no fatigue or hunger afterward. I literally felt no signal to stop and rest except maybe my joints getting worn out. It really amazed me. I have seen evidence that fat metabolism (being in ketosis) actually increases the number of mitochondria in your cells. Apparently fat metabolism is easier for the mitochondria, it creates less oxidative stress, and it inhibits cellular apoptosis (programmed death). Most of this research is related to fasting and increased longevity in animal studies. However it works, my experience is that it works incredibly well.
  • CrisseydaCrisseyda Posts: 532Member Member Posts: 532Member Member
    shell1005 wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    N200lz wrote: »
    High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
    The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.
    or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?

    I know that was my experience with distance running when I switched to the ketogenic diet. Instead of hitting that wall toward the end of my run, feeling like I was pushing so hard those last few miles, like my reserves were just about empty, that feeling completely disappeared. There was no wall, there was no fatigue or hunger afterward. I literally felt no signal to stop and rest except maybe my joints getting worn out. It really amazed me. I have seen evidence that fat metabolism (being in ketosis) actually increases the number of mitochondria in your cells. Apparently fat metabolism is easier for the mitochondria, it creates less oxidative stress, and it inhibits cellular apoptosis (programmed death). Most of this research is related to fasting and increased longevity in animal studies. However it works, my experience is that it works incredibly well.

    Just FYI to others in the thread. My experience was the opposite. I can run fueled by carbs and could easily run a half marathon without fueling. Felt great afterwards.

    When I am running keto...anything after mile 7 or 8 and I hit a wall. Everything feels like garbage and I want to stop.

    Just wanted to share my anecdotal evidence to contrast with what was shared above. I'll also say that the running group I frequent...who almost everyone in it has completed a marathon (brats, right?) that carbs are absolutely the ideal fuel for them.

    I've been running since 8th grade and got most of my first nutrition advice from Jeff Galloway's book. He was all about eating carbs and limiting fat. I remember his rationale. More calories per gram in fat, it gets stored immediately while you're body uses more energy to breakdown and store the protein and carbohydrates. Seemed reasonable to me at the time (as I knew very little then about nutrition), but it's outdated advice now. Running on fat is very different; however, it can take weeks to get over the keto flu and get fat-adapted enough to experience it fully. Running or any kind of exercise in early ketosis is very difficult.
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